Giant Instinct Damage Bump


Second Edition


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So Giant Instinct bumps rage damage from a +2 to a +6 according to Jason Bulmahn in the latest episode of Known Direction. That seems like a great damage bonus for a level 1 Character

Dark Archive

One question I had for him was if a small character takes giant instinct can they start with a large weapon or a weapon of 1 size larger (which would be medium). I understand that even small characters can use large weapons just like medium characters, but do they both start out with a large weapon?

On another note I'm glad to see barbar get some much needed improvements!


Totally warranted. The lack of accuracy is HUGE!! Some DPT calculations on the playtest forum showed that damage boost had to be vastly improved to compete with other martial builds in contribution.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
ChibiNyan wrote:
Totally warranted. The lack of accuracy is HUGE!! Some DPT calculations on the playtest forum showed that damage boost had to be vastly improved to compete with other martial builds in contribution.

When he read the Clumsy condition it was a penalty to Dex based things like AC and Reflex saves. It was not a penalty to hit.


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They don't have problem with accuracy anymore, the condition changed to clumsy, meaning -1 in Dex related stuff, in battle this means -1 AC and reflex save.


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Vessa wrote:

One question I had for him was if a small character takes giant instinct can they start with a large weapon or a weapon of 1 size larger (which would be medium). I understand that even small characters can use large weapons just like medium characters, but do they both start out with a large weapon?

On another note I'm glad to see barbar get some much needed improvements!

In the playtest you jump from wherever you're at to Large. I played a gnome barbarian with a Large glaive. If that character hit level 14, I would have been able to be a Huge Gnome with a Colossal glaive.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Vessa wrote:

One question I had for him was if a small character takes giant instinct can they start with a large weapon or a weapon of 1 size larger (which would be medium). I understand that even small characters can use large weapons just like medium characters, but do they both start out with a large weapon?

On another note I'm glad to see barbar get some much needed improvements!

If you are small or medium you use a large weapon in any other case you use a weapon 1 size larger than your character


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I enjoy that this Instinct leans into the whole thing Barbarians have going where they will wreck anything they get a hold of, but are in turn wrecked by anything that gets a hold of them.


I wonder if with this instinct and this general feat I can suplex a mountain.

Titan Wrestler (Feat 1) (General, Skill). Prereqs: trained in Athletics. You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, or up to three sizes larger than you if you’re legendary in Athletics.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Kyrone wrote:

I wonder if with this instinct and this general feat I can suplex a mountain.

Titan Wrestler (Feat 1) (General, Skill). Prereqs: trained in Athletics. You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, or up to three sizes larger than you if you’re legendary in Athletics.

That skill feat alone lets you suplex anything you want at legendary (since there is no colossal, just a range of spaces a Gargantuan creature can take). With giant instinct, you can do it without legendary. Heck, eventually you don't need the skill feat even, since you're Huge.


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A giant instinct barbarian with that feat that lets them get Huge suplexing a Kaiju is how I imagine next year's Godzilla vs. King Kong is going to go.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyrone wrote:

I wonder if with this instinct and this general feat I can suplex a mountain.

Titan Wrestler (Feat 1) (General, Skill). Prereqs: trained in Athletics. You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, or up to three sizes larger than you if you’re legendary in Athletics.

That skill feat alone lets you suplex anything you want at legendary (since there is no colossal, just a range of spaces a Gargantuan creature can take). With giant instinct, you can do it without legendary. Heck, eventually you don't need the skill feat even, since you're Huge.

Hmm?

Paizo Employee Designer

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Rysky wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyrone wrote:

I wonder if with this instinct and this general feat I can suplex a mountain.

Titan Wrestler (Feat 1) (General, Skill). Prereqs: trained in Athletics. You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, or up to three sizes larger than you if you’re legendary in Athletics.

That skill feat alone lets you suplex anything you want at legendary (since there is no colossal, just a range of spaces a Gargantuan creature can take). With giant instinct, you can do it without legendary. Heck, eventually you don't need the skill feat even, since you're Huge.
Hmm?

Same as the playtest. Basically like how colossal in PF1 also included massive critters like kaiju that took more space.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyrone wrote:

I wonder if with this instinct and this general feat I can suplex a mountain.

Titan Wrestler (Feat 1) (General, Skill). Prereqs: trained in Athletics. You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, or up to three sizes larger than you if you’re legendary in Athletics.

That skill feat alone lets you suplex anything you want at legendary (since there is no colossal, just a range of spaces a Gargantuan creature can take). With giant instinct, you can do it without legendary. Heck, eventually you don't need the skill feat even, since you're Huge.
Hmm?
Same as the playtest. Basically like how colossal in PF1 also included massive critters like kaiju that took more space.

Oooooo!!!

I completely missed that Colossal wasn't included in the listings at the front of the book (granted only two creatures in the whole Playtestiary have their sizes "changed" because of this), this is very, very interesting.


I read "Giant Insect Damage Bump".


It really sounded and looked like Jason was reading straight from the rulebook when he said this about the Titan Mauler instinct ability:

Jason wrote:
You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium, both normally and when raging. If you're not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you. You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you of any type otherwise available at character creation. It has the normal price and bulk for a weapon of its size. When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from rage from 2 to 6.

I'm really hoping he wasn't reading from the book, though, because this rule, as written, seems not to actually enable a Small character to use a Large weapon. Because (1) you only "gain access" to "one weapon one size larger than you", and (2) it is only when wielding "such a weapon" (the antecedent of which would be "one weapon one size larger than you") that you get the damage boost.

So a Small character does not "gain access" (meaning what?) to a Large weapon, and would not receive the damage boost when wielding it.

If Jason was reading from the book, as it sounded like, I'd say that the rule is somewhat poorly written and in need of clarification, a Small character to use a Large weapon (and it seems like this was the intent, from what Jason said).

(The UK Games image quite blurrily shows this text block, but alas I can't read it.)

Silver Crusade

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Huh? The very first sentence you qouted says "You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium, both normally and when raging."


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Rysky wrote:
Huh? The very first sentence you qouted says "You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium, both normally and when raging."

Correct. I do believe that the intention is to give the full benefits of the instinct ability to Small characters wielding Large weapons. But if Jason was reading the rule straight from the book (as it looked and sounded like), then the rule would not, as written, give all of its benefits to a Small character wielding a Large weapon.

We see three distinct rules elements/ability benefits in this text:

Quote:
[1] You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium, both normally and when raging. If you're not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you. [2] You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you of any type otherwise available at character creation. It has the normal price and bulk for a weapon of its size. [3] When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from rage from 2 to 6.

[1] This is clear.

[2] I'm not entirely sure what "access" means here, but it's clear that if you're Small you wouldn't get "access" to a Large weapon at character creation.

[3] The problem here arises from "such." By the standard rules of English construction, "such a weapon" refers back to the last-mentioned "weapon." But the last-mentioned "weapon" here is specifically "one weapon one size larger than you.". So you only get the damage boost when wielding that "one weapon one size larger than you." Which means, among other things, that Small characters wielding Large weapons would not get that damage boost.

Now, such a result would seem to be contrary to my understanding of the intent of the rule. Hence my statement that if this is the rules text, then it is at least poorly written and in need of clarification.

None of this is a problem if Jason was not in fact reading the rule straight from the text, or if he misread it, as long as the text itself is clear. But it raised a concern for me so I thought I'd mention it here.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Access is literal in this case, you start with/can buy it with your starting funds.

Regardinging the one size category larger than you, is there a difference between Medium and Small weapons?


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Rysky wrote:

Access is literal in this case, you start with/can buy it with your starting funds.

Regardinging the one size category larger than you, is there a difference between Medium and Small weapons?

There must be some difference, otherwise there would be no need for all the specificity in [1], above.

Liberty's Edge

Access might be related to the rarity system, maybe larger weapons are normally uncommon/rare and thus unable to be obtained without special GM permissions?


If this is indeed a problem in the rules text, the simplest fix would probably be just to swap #3 and #2.

That way "such a weapon" would point to whatever weapon is enabled by #1, and #2 would sit separate, as it should.

Paizo Employee Designer

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There aren't really Small and Medium weapons; one longsword fits all core ancestries. It should probably say "a weapon for Large creatures (or a weapon for creatures one size larger than you if you aren't Small or Medium)" to make it clear.


I mean, it's kind of weird to assign size categories to items when those size categories would not necessarily apply to those items as objects.

Like a dagger for a hill giant is unlikely to be larger than an adult human, in which case an animated hill giant dagger would be medium or small, probably.


Mark Seifter wrote:
There aren't really Small and Medium weapons; one longsword fits all core ancestries.

Even outside the scenario in this thread, I really like this change. I've been playing a gnome for the last two years and small weapons were kind of demoralizing at times. ;-)


Mark Seifter wrote:
There aren't really Small and Medium weapons; one longsword fits all core ancestries. It should probably say "a weapon for Large creatures (or a weapon for creatures one size larger than you if you aren't Small or Medium)" to make it clear.

Not even greatswords and pikes?


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tqomins wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Huh? The very first sentence you qouted says "You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium, both normally and when raging."

Correct. I do believe that the intention is to give the full benefits of the instinct ability to Small characters wielding Large weapons. But if Jason was reading the rule straight from the book (as it looked and sounded like), then the rule would not, as written, give all of its benefits to a Small character wielding a Large weapon.

We see three distinct rules elements/ability benefits in this text:

Quote:
[1] You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium, both normally and when raging. If you're not Small or Medium, you can use a weapon built for a creature one size larger than you. [2] You gain access to one weapon one size larger than you of any type otherwise available at character creation. It has the normal price and bulk for a weapon of its size. [3] When wielding such a weapon in combat, increase your additional damage from rage from 2 to 6.

[1] This is clear.

[2] I'm not entirely sure what "access" means here, but it's clear that if you're Small you wouldn't get "access" to a Large weapon at character creation.

[3] The problem here arises from "such." By the standard rules of English construction, "such a weapon" refers back to the last-mentioned "weapon." But the last-mentioned "weapon" here is specifically "one weapon one size larger than you.". So you only get the damage boost when wielding that "one weapon one size larger than you." Which means, among other things, that Small characters wielding Large weapons would not get that damage boost.

Now, such a result would seem to be contrary to my understanding of the intent of the rule. Hence my statement that if this is the rules text, then it is at least poorly written and in need of clarification.

None of this is a problem if Jason was...

Actually, as written, it’s not as ambiguous as you’re making it to be. Rule #2 is fairly simple; there are no small weapons available, and small creatures (Gnomes, Goblins, Halflings) buy and use Medium Size weapons mechanically speaking. This ’access’ is only referring to character creation; that and Rule #1 already states that Small size PC’s are an exception to the size rule where you treat them as medium instead of as small. (Medium = Medium / Small = Medium) Rule #3 refers to any weapon that is covered in Rules #1 and #2.


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They really should have just dropped Small Size and merged it with Medium, grabbing whatever few remaining mechanics that are deemed important and just giving to relevant Ancestries directly as racial mechanic. It's just too confusing and waste of brain waves to keep track of Small/Medium distinction when it barely matters for anything anymore, you spend more time figuring out "oh, this doesn't have any difference like I expected" than you do actually getting distinct mechanical niche out of Small size.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:
Kyrone wrote:

I wonder if with this instinct and this general feat I can suplex a mountain.

Titan Wrestler (Feat 1) (General, Skill). Prereqs: trained in Athletics. You can attempt to Disarm, Grapple, Shove, or Trip creatures up to two sizes larger than you, or up to three sizes larger than you if you’re legendary in Athletics.

That skill feat alone lets you suplex anything you want at legendary (since there is no colossal, just a range of spaces a Gargantuan creature can take). With giant instinct, you can do it without legendary. Heck, eventually you don't need the skill feat even, since you're Huge.

Would that include a ghost train filled with ghosts?

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