Sneak Attack from Multiclassing stacking


Rules Questions

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swoosh wrote:
They don't stack, but they don't need to stack. They're two separate abilities that both trigger off the same effect and happen independently of each other. You hit an enemy and assuming you meet all other conditions, you apply sneak attack and precise strike damage.

Correct, now let's look at that FAQ again.

FAQ wrote:

Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?

No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.

Per the FAQ they are considered to be two separate abilities. This means that when the conditions are met for sneak attack you add two instances of +1d6 damage to the attack, since they're two separate abilities that are triggering off the same effect and are independent of each other.


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swoosh wrote:
They don't stack, but they don't need to stack. They're two separate abilities that both trigger off the same effect and happen independently of each other. You hit an enemy and assuming you meet all other conditions, you apply sneak attack and precise strike damage.

The definition of stack is "combine for cumulative effect". If you are adding both of them to the same damage roll then by definition you are stacking them. Which is fine in the case of Sneak Attack and Precise Strike, but that seems like a bit of a red herring to the question of whether Sneak Attack stacks with other Sneak Attack.

_
glass.


A Cleric5/Paladin5 multiclass has more daily channel energy dice than a Cleric5/Fighter5, thus if you look at total production, the two Channel Energy abilities stack as well. As the FAQ says, you have to use them seperately (that means you have to spend the action for each activation seperately), but you can use them on the same targets - if you look at HP healed, you do "combine them for cumulative effect".

As Sneak Attack doesn't require expending an action, the same logic applied means you can use multiple instances on the same attack.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Stop trying to dance around, you get 1 instance of sneak attack and that's it. Saying you add the damage together IS stacking them.

Grand Lodge

Triggering 2 different sources of sneak attack from the same attack is not stacking them, since they apply separately against DR.

It is like if you are wearing deliquescent gloves while two weapon fighting with a flaming dagger and a frost dagger...you do your dagger damage and acid damage on every attack and the fire damage on one attack or frost damage on the other. The piercing, acid, fire, and frost don't 'stack' but they all trigger, and are applied separately against any appropriate resistances.


Val'bryn2 wrote:
Stop trying to dance around, you get 1 instance of sneak attack and that's it. Saying you add the damage together IS stacking them.

No it isn't. Having a pool of 2d6 Channel Energy and 1d6 channel Energy is not the same as having 3d6 Channel Energy.

A flaming frost dagger does not have +2d6 fire and frost damage, it has +1d6 fire damage and +1d6 frost damage.

Having two sources of 1d6 Sneak Attack does not give you 2d6 Sneak Attack, it gives you 1d6 sneak attack twice.

You can try to ignore it and I know it can be kind of confusing for new players, but this is an important distinction for the way class features and prerequisites work.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

They apply separately against DR, but what happens when they do not have DR? Do you suddenly do both sources?


Val'bryn2 wrote:
They apply separately against DR, but what happens when they do not have DR? Do you suddenly do both sources?

Even in combinations where Sneak Attack from two classes do apply, they absolutely do not apply separately against DR (either from each other, or from the weapon's base damage).

_
glass.


Possibly topical.

Jason Buhlman wrote:

sneak attack damage is not a special effect that accompanies the attack, it is part of the damage roll.


swoosh wrote:
Having two sources of 1d6 Sneak Attack does not give you 2d6 Sneak Attack, it gives you 1d6 sneak attack twice.

What are you saying 1d6 twice means? If my base damage is 1d4+3, but I am flanking and have two sources of 1d6 Sneak damage, how do I calculate my damage?

Grand Lodge

Jason Buhlman wrote:
sneak attack damage is not a special effect that accompanies the attack, it is part of the damage roll.

Now we just need him to actually put that into an official FAQ or errata instead of just stating it on a forum post.


Matthew Downie wrote:
swoosh wrote:
Having two sources of 1d6 Sneak Attack does not give you 2d6 Sneak Attack, it gives you 1d6 sneak attack twice.
What are you saying 1d6 twice means? If my base damage is 1d4+3, but I am flanking and have two sources of 1d6 Sneak damage, how do I calculate my damage?

1d4+3+1d6+1d6

It's two separate abilities, similarly a ranger 1/shifter 2 gets +2 on survival checks made to follow tracks.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
glass wrote:
Val'bryn2 wrote:
They apply separately against DR, but what happens when they do not have DR? Do you suddenly do both sources?

Even in combinations where Sneak Attack from two classes do apply, they absolutely do not apply separately against DR (either from each other, or from the weapon's base damage).

_
glass.

I was using that as the first part of an argument against this. I don't agree with having 2 separate sources of sneak attack. Either they stack, or one overrides the other. If, as some people are saying, they have 2 separate sources and can apply each separately, they are, in effect, stacking them.


Question about the logic.

If class A gives spell-like ability X 1/day and class B gives the same ability 1/day, how many uses of the ability does the character have? It feels like saying they only get one goes against the rules.

Similarly, class A gives +1 to atk & dmg rolls (ex: Fighter weapon training) and class B gives +1 to atk & dmg rolls (ex: Swashbuckler weapon training), how much does the character get to atk & dmg rolls? Getting +1 seems to clearly contradict the rules.

* Also, I dont remember any rule that says you can't combine damage abilities from multiple sources (as long as they are triggered corectly) for the purpose of dealing well damage.


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ok, to start with. We have different definitions of "stack" going on.

If two different abilities stack then it means you get to add them together and/or apply both of them. If two instances of the same ability stack it means you add them together to determine the final effect.

Conversely, if two different abilities do not stack it means you do not get to add them together and/or apply both of them. If two abilities are in effect at the same time and they do not stack then they overlap.

Going back to the bleed effect for a moment. If I apply 3 instances of 1d6 bleed to a target. Then I roll each one and notate the result. Then I see which bleed effect did the most damage that round and the creature with the bleed effect takes that much damage that round. So, if I rolled a 1, 3 and 4 then that creature takes 4 bleed damage. This is because the bleed effects do not stack, they overlap.

Stacking vs non-stacking example 1
I have channel energy 2d6 3/day from class A and channel energy 1d6 3/day from class B.

If the two abilities stack, then this means I get channel energy 3d6 3/day.

If the two abilities do not stack then it means I have channel energy 2d6 3/day and channel energy 1d6 3/day. I can't use my 1d6 uses of channel energy to trigger my 2d6 channel energy ability or vise versa.

Stacking vs non-stacking example 2
I have resist energy 30 Fire and I have Protection from Energy 120 Fire. I get hit for 50 points of fire damage.

If the two abilities stack, this means that I would reduce the 50 damage by 30 and then subtract the remaining 20 from my 120 point damage buffer, leaving me at 100 points.

If the two abilities don't stack (which btw, they don't), then it means that i simply subtract the 50 points from my 120 point damage buffer, leaving me at 70 points.

As you can see since they did not stack my resist energy of 30 did not benefit me in any way.

Finally, back to sneak attack.

Stacking vs non-stacking example 3
If I have 1d6 sneak attack from Class A and 1d6 sneak attack from class B and I attack an enemy I'm flanking who is susceptible to sneak attack with an attack that deals 1d4+3 dmg.

If the abilities stack then I do 1d4+3+2d6 damage. If I roll a 2 on the d4, a 4 on the first d6 and a 3 on the second d6, then I do a total of 2+3+4+3 =12 dmg

If the abilities do not stack, they overlap. I roll each sneak attack die separately, the highest of the two get used and the other is ignored. so I would do 2+3+4 = 9 dmg.

To claim that I deal 12 dmg is to claim that they stack. When two non-stacking abilities are applicable in the same moment then one of the two abilities must be ignored. To do otherwise is to stack them even if the two abilities work differently (as seen by example 2). An ability can not both stack and not stack. If two abilities stack they stack by every definition of stack. If two abilities do not stack then they do not stack by every definition of stack.


LordKailas wrote:
Conversely, if two different abilities do not stack it means you do not get to add them together and/or apply both of them. If two abilities are in effect at the same time and they do not stack then they overlap.

Precise strike (from swash) and sneak attack (via rogue) do not say they stack, nor do they stack for determining each other's effects. Do they both apply on a flanking attack where precise strike was used?

Quote:

Stacking vs non-stacking example 1

I have channel energy 2d6 3/day from class A and channel energy 1d6 3/day from class B.

If the two abilities stack, then this means I get channel energy 3d6 3/day.

If the two abilities do not stack then it means I have channel energy 2d6 3/day and channel energy 1d6 3/day. I can't use my 1d6 uses of channel energy to trigger my 2d6 channel energy ability or vise versa.

Correct, you have 2 different abilities that grant uses of different channels, and since each ability takes a standard action to use you cannot apply both at the same time.

Similarly but different, a monk and an Ioran paladin would grant two different ki pools. However, since only some monk abilities are specific to that ki pool you could spend ki from either pool for the other ones.

Quote:

Stacking vs non-stacking example 2

I have resist energy 30 Fire and I have Protection from Energy 120 Fire. I get hit for 50 points of fire damage.

If the two abilities stack, this means that I would reduce the 50 damage by 30 and then subtract the remaining 20 from my 120 point damage buffer, leaving me at 100 points.

If the two abilities don't stack (which btw, they don't), then it means that i simply subtract the 50 points from my 120 point damage buffer, leaving me at 70 points.

As you can see since they did not stack my resist energy of 30 did not benefit me in any way.

This is highly irrelevant, they interact how they do solely due to the lines in the spells.

Quote:

Stacking vs non-stacking example 3

If I have 1d6 sneak attack from Class A and 1d6 sneak attack from class B and I attack an enemy I'm flanking who is susceptible to sneak attack with an attack that deals 1d4+3 dmg.

If the abilities stack then I do 1d4+3+2d6 damage. If I roll a 2 on the d4, a 4 on the first d6 and a 3 on the second d6, then I do a total of 2+3+4+3 =12 dmg

If the abilities do not stack, they overlap. I roll each sneak attack die separately, the highest of the two get used and the other is ignored. so I would do 2+3+4 = 9 dmg.

This is incorrect, they are separate abilities and are treated as such, just as you would treat the extra damage from jabbing style and sneak attack on your second hit with an unarmed strike while flanking and using jabbing style. As such, an unarmed fighter 1/rogue 1 would deal an extra 2d6 damage in such a situation.

Quote:
To claim that I deal 12 dmg is to claim that they stack.

No, it's to claim that two separate abilities are applied separately when applicable, even if they qualify under the same circumstances.

Quote:
When two non-stacking abilities are applicable in the same moment then one of the two abilities must be ignored. To do otherwise is to stack them even if the two abilities work differently (as seen by example 2). An ability can not both stack and not stack. If two abilities stack they stack by every definition of stack. If two abilities do not stack then they do not stack by every definition of stack.

Then do the attack and damage bonus of swashbuckler weapon training and weapon training (light blades) from fighter both apply on attacks with a rapier?

Note that they do not say they stack.

Likewise, does a ranger 1/shifter 2 get +1 or +2 when using survival to follow tracks?


Well, what about the Weapon Training example I asked?

Class A gives weapon training 2 for +2 atk & dmg.
Class B gives different weapon training 1 for +1 atk & dmg.

You are saying that because they have the same name, the character would not get the +3 to atk & dmg (no one is arguing that you get weapon training 3), instead the would get only +2 because "overlap".

Again, there is no rule that says precision damage (which is a category not a type) from multiple sources doesn't stack (baring some cases like Precise Strike feat).


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willuwontu wrote:
Precise strike (from swash) and sneak attack (via rogue) do not say they stack, nor do they stack for determining each other's effects. Do they both apply on a flanking attack where precise strike was used?

This seems to be a deliberate smoke screen. Precise strike (from swash) and sneak attack (via rogue) are different abilities. If I power attack while using the teamwork feat precise strike I get to add the damage from both. The two feats are different abilities that fail to interact with each other in any meaningful way. Your comparison is no different. Because I get to add damage from both this falls into the category of different abilities that stack. Power attack also stacks with enhancement bonuses to damage. It also stacks with the damage bonus due to strength.

Willuwontu wrote:

Then do the attack and damage bonus of swashbuckler weapon training and weapon training (light blades) from fighter both apply on attacks with a rapier?

Note that they do not say they stack.

Likewise, does a ranger 1/shifter 2 get +1 or +2 when using survival to follow tracks?

Different abilities stack unless otherwise specified. Abilities of the same name do not stack unless otherwise specified.


Temperans wrote:

Well, what about the Weapon Training example I asked?

Class A gives weapon training 2 for +2 atk & dmg.
Class B gives different weapon training 1 for +1 atk & dmg.

You are saying that because they have the same name, the character would not get the +3 to atk & dmg (no one is arguing that you get weapon training 3), instead the would get only +2 because "overlap".

Again, there is no rule that says precision damage (which is a category not a type) from multiple sources doesn't stack (baring some cases like Precise Strike feat).

well, it depends if the two stack or not.

If the two stack then you now have weapon training 3 for +3 atk & dmg.

If the two do not stack then the weapon training 1 is effectively ignored and you'll only see a +2 atk & dmg.

We see this interaction when it comes to magical +1 weapons. Weapons must be masterwork in order to be enchanted. Masterwork grants the weapon a +1 enhancement bonus to hit. The magical enchantment provides a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and dmg. Since enhancement bonuses do not stack the +1 to hit from masterwork is ignored and you only get +1 to hit and +1 to dmg instead of +2 to hit and +1 to dmg.


Temperans wrote:

Well, what about the Weapon Training example I asked?

Class A gives weapon training 2 for +2 atk & dmg.
Class B gives different weapon training 1 for +1 atk & dmg.

You are saying that because they have the same name, the character would not get the +3 to atk & dmg (no one is arguing that you get weapon training 3), instead the would get only +2 because "overlap".

Again, there is no rule that says precision damage (which is a category not a type) from multiple sources doesn't stack (baring some cases like Precise Strike feat).

weapon training appears to Stack, as in multiple instances of weapon training 1 turns into Weapon Training 2, not two different +1 bonuses. That’s because there’s a FAQ that says that’s how it works, at least for Myrmidarch. Here if they were the same Weapon Training, I would say they stack because FAQ, and if they were different Weapon Training-like sources I would say they stack because they are different sources.


LordKailas wrote:
Precise strike (from swash) and sneak attack (via rogue) are different abilities. If I power attack while using the teamwork feat precise strike I get to add the damage from both. The two feats are different abilities that fail to interact with each other in any meaningful way. Your comparison is no different. Because I get to add damage from both this falls into the category of different abilities that stack. Power attack also stacks with enhancement bonuses to damage. It also stacks with the damage bonus due to strength.

What part of the FAQ saying to treat them as separate abilities do you not understand? Having two sources of sneak attack is no different than having a source of precise strike, and a source of sneak attack. You apply all relevant abilities in situations where they apply.

Quote:
Different abilities stack unless otherwise specified. Abilities of the same name do not stack unless otherwise specified.

Incorrect, let's look at that FAQ again.

FAQ wrote:

Channel Energy: If I have this ability from more than one class, do they stack?

No—unless an ability specifically says it stacks with similar abilities (such as an assassin's sneak attack), or adds in some way based on the character's total class levels (such as improved uncanny dodge), the abilities don't stack and you have to use them separately. Therefore, cleric channeling doesn't stack with paladin channeling, necromancer channeling, oracle of life channeling, and so on.

Name has nothing to do with their stacking, it's them being similar abilities.

So, again, do the attack and damage bonus of swashbuckler weapon training and weapon training (light blades) from fighter both apply on attacks with a rapier?

Note that they do not say they stack.


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willuwontu wrote:
What part of the FAQ saying to treat them as separate abilities do you not understand? Having two sources of sneak attack is no different than having a source of precise strike, and a source of sneak attack. You apply all relevant abilities in situations where they apply.

ok, lets focus just on the FAQ. It says you have to use the abilities separately. So, you can't use them together, meaning you can't use them at the same time. So, by a strict interpretation of the FAQ you would have to pick one ability or the other to use during qualifying circumstances since you can't use them together.


LordKailas wrote:
ok, lets focus just on the FAQ. It says you have to use the abilities separately. So, you can't use them together, meaning you can't use them at the same time. So, by a strict interpretation of the FAQ you would have to pick one ability or the other to use during qualifying circumstances since you can't use them together.

Using them separately means that they are applied separately. The FAQ does not say you cannot use them at the same time, just that they must be used separately.

How would you run the quoted question?

Quote:

So, again, do the attack and damage bonus of swashbuckler weapon training and weapon training (light blades) from fighter both apply on attacks with a rapier?

Note that they do not say they stack.


I had this question with Unarmed dice progression.


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willuwontu wrote:
Using them separately means that they are applied separately. The FAQ does not say you cannot use them at the same time, just that they must be used separately.

The FAQ states that they must be used separately, which means they can't be combined. If you combine them then you're not using them separately.

willuwontu wrote:
How would you run the quoted question?
Quote:

So, again, do the attack and damage bonus of swashbuckler weapon training and weapon training (light blades) from fighter both apply on attacks with a rapier?

Note that they do not say they stack.

Its not relevant to the discussion. I'm only discussing what happens if two abilities stack vs what happens if they don't stack.

As I already stated very early on, IMO sneak attack from various classes is intended to stack. At a glance I would assume that the two abilities you're asking about would stack (meaning you get to add both bonuses to an attack that is applicable to both abilities) since they have different names. IMO having different names is enough to treat them as different abilities. Now, if its called out somewhere that a specific ability stacks or doesn't stack with another specific ability that would over-ride my general assumption. If for example an FAQ identifies that these two abilities do not stack. Then I would assume that you have to pick one or the other for an applicable attack. That because they do not stack you have to pick which one applies.

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