Cost of Durable Darts


Rules Questions


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So durable darts, do they cost 10gp each, or 1gp each?


Considering there is no such thing as durable darts, there isn't a cost.

Sovereign Court

Regular darts aren't priced as ammunition so don't break on use... So are already effectively durable.
If they weren't, like shuriken, they would be 1 gp each. If the individual piece of base ammo was already 1 gp or more, you add 1gp to the final cost.


Darts as ammunition

So I've seen in several places darts treated as ammunition. I am confused.

So additional questions I suppose. How are darts priced if you enchant them? Are they individual weapons (like javalins or chackrams) or ammo like shurkin?

Sovereign Court

Yeah it's strange, I checked d20 and darts were listed in the ranged table, not ammo table.
If they are ammo, it'll be 1 gp each for durable per the Alchemy Manual.


It has big implications for the action to draw them and throw them as well. Looking around it also has effects on feats like deadly dealer.


They're simply not ammunition. Relying on d20pfsrd is not for the best.

For Deadly Dealer you can have your deck in hand, so no drawing of ammo required. Or Quick Draw if you insist on 'holstering' your deck.

Sovereign Court

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Darts are weird. Alchemy Manual implies they are ammunition by explicitly saying they can be made into the variant alchemical arrows, ie durable, unless the "darts" its referring to mean blowgun darts instead? However, the core rulebook has regular darts in the ranged weapons (not ammo) chart, so odd. There is some language in the Ammunition section of the core rulebook that talks about "darts (for blowguns)", so I wonder if they mislinked things on D20.

I tracked down where I got the 1 gp costs from, in Campaign Clarifications for PFS.

Campaign Clarifications wrote:

Alchemy Manual

Pages 20 and 21—You may purchase other types of ammunition with the properties of any of the arrows listed on these pages. The ammunition costs the same as the arrow, unless the base cost of one unit of the ammunition costs 1 gp or more—in that case, add the cost of one unit of ammunition to the listed cost for the arrow.


Darts aren't ammo sadly. Well at least not as 1.5 years ago. I don't have it anymoe but I did this big research thing. Darts-the thrown weapons, aren't the same as the darts the blowgun.
But they don't do a great job of differenting them.
Nethys or the offical PRD are likely the bestter choices D20 is nice fast reference but it tends to mix a few things up or cause odd comibinations due to the mass amount of data.

Blowgun darts are ammo, but they don't have a listing on thrown ability. I.e. they'd be improvsed throwing weapons. 10ft and whatever the GM decides the damage would be.

By technicality Atlatl Darts are ammo, but they are treated as javelin when thrown. I.e. It should be free action (ammo) draw, but thrown using the stats as a javalin. So it should let you free action draw, and throw. THey are not cheap, and they are heavy. If you were going for these, may consider making them purely out of fragile materials so they're lighter (though this would negate the reason for durable I guesss)
ATLATL DART
Price 1 gp
Type ammunition
An atlatl dart is the equivalent of a javelin except it has fletching. If thrown without an atlatl, treat it as a javelin.
==========
but yeah. You can make any ammo any of the special ones. Which I'm very happy they put that line in. Means you can make so many cool treats. (My alchemist keeps a wrist crossbow, with dye bolts for touch AC. Uses explosive missle+conductive+Alchemical Weapon ability when he needs to do something at further range). His close range throwing items are... Throwing arrows! (also keeps a throwing arrow cord.). I have thought about entirely switching to the Throwing cord instead of the arm crossbow. but the practicality of having it "on" my arm vs having to hand carry one. but still its nice to have one in case due to the 60ft range.

Another option would be Throwing Arrows https://www.aonprd.com/EquipmentWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Throwing%20arr ow
They're basically the same stats as a Dart. and are in fact treated like a dart when thrown. But they are valid for all the little alchemical treats.

I am in fact not entirely sure what profiency for "throwing arrows" only. But I went with simple due to 'treat like darts"


Well this puts me in a pickle. I was looking far a backup ranged weapon for my gun using eldritch archer build that I can use with spell combat. I don't have the feats to pick up quick draw so it looks like I'm out of luck. Darts seemed like they'd work, but I guess not.

I have to hold my gun because bonded item and I can't spend a move action to draw a weapon of I'm going to use spell combat.

Sovereign Court

Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath are a thing. Throw a Kunai or Dagger in each, but since they are swift actions you would only get one attack out of them.
Alternatively, pick up the Obsalescent White Pyramid ioun stone, cracked. You are proficient in all martial weapons, so you just need the 1500 gp version. Then use Durable Shuriken, which can be drawn(and enchanted) as Ammunition.
Frankly, if you were taking Weapon Proficiency(Firearms) as a feat (not a class feature) you should probably pick up two and retrain.


baggageboy wrote:

Well this puts me in a pickle. I was looking far a backup ranged weapon for my gun using eldritch archer build that I can use with spell combat. I don't have the feats to pick up quick draw so it looks like I'm out of luck. Darts seemed like they'd work, but I guess not.

I have to hold my gun because bonded item and I can't spend a move action to draw a weapon of I'm going to use spell combat.

Won't the Throwing Arrows I mentioned work for you?

Drawn like ammo. Thrown/treated like a dart (when thrown).
Seems like its exactly what you needed?
The Throwing Arrow Cord is martial. But the T.Arrows say treat like a dart when thrown (or something to that wording). So I assume just throwing them is Simple.
But either way a magus would have both I assume.

Would these not work for you?


I'll be starting eldritch archer(for the gun), dipping gunslinger(gun tank) and then goon eldricher archer the rest of the way. It's only an issue while I don't have gunsmithing and guns are very expensive to shoot without making your own ammo. After level 2 there won't be a problem. It's just tough for now the first level. At 3rd level I'll have spell cartridges, so no reloading.

Ah well, such is life. Not using a bow? Well be ready for the additional feat taxes to do less.


Zwordsman wrote:
baggageboy wrote:

Well this puts me in a pickle. I was looking far a backup ranged weapon for my gun using eldritch archer build that I can use with spell combat. I don't have the feats to pick up quick draw so it looks like I'm out of luck. Darts seemed like they'd work, but I guess not.

I have to hold my gun because bonded item and I can't spend a move action to draw a weapon of I'm going to use spell combat.

Won't the Throwing Arrows I mentioned work for you?

Drawn like ammo. Thrown/treated like a dart (when thrown).
Seems like its exactly what you needed?
The Throwing Arrow Cord is martial. But the T.Arrows say treat like a dart when thrown (or something to that wording). So I assume just throwing them is Simple.
But either way a magus would have both I assume.

Would these not work for you?

The issue is if you "treat as a dart" then you don't draw them as ammo and so it requires a move action still.

Edit: Still this is intriguing. I'll probably just do it and see if my GM puts up a stink.


I don't think I see much of a functional written difference between the way Shuriken is phrased (it is a throwing item but treated as ammo for X reasons). They both use the term "Treat"(ed) to describe a specific circumstance. But neither remove the innate property of the item (thrown weapon and ammo respectively). If the treat as a dart were to override the storage/drawing action of the Ammo it would have to call it out in more detail like how the thrown weapon is called out drawing specifcially.

I think anyway. Makes sense to me anyway. As the act of "throwing" is NOT the act of drawing. That line does not override the drawing action. They're functionally separate actions. the free action drawing is its own action regardless of what is done with the arrow after drawing.

Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them and crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and of what happens to them after they are thrown.

If thrown without the use of a cord, treat a throwing arrow as a dart.


baggageboy wrote:
Zwordsman wrote:
baggageboy wrote:

Well this puts me in a pickle. I was looking far a backup ranged weapon for my gun using eldritch archer build that I can use with spell combat. I don't have the feats to pick up quick draw so it looks like I'm out of luck. Darts seemed like they'd work, but I guess not.

I have to hold my gun because bonded item and I can't spend a move action to draw a weapon of I'm going to use spell combat.

Won't the Throwing Arrows I mentioned work for you?

Drawn like ammo. Thrown/treated like a dart (when thrown).
Seems like its exactly what you needed?
The Throwing Arrow Cord is martial. But the T.Arrows say treat like a dart when thrown (or something to that wording). So I assume just throwing them is Simple.
But either way a magus would have both I assume.

Would these not work for you?

The issue is if you "treat as a dart" then you don't draw them as ammo and so it requires a move action still.

Edit: Still this is intriguing. I'll probably just do it and see if my GM puts up a stink.

You have your Acid Splash Cantrip.


Your Dart is just a backup weapon, anyway. Is it really so bad if you can't Full Attack with your backup ranged option? Your 2nd attack gets a -5, you know.


So for people to understand why I care. Spell combat allows for a full attack routine and casting a spell. So at level 1 I could cast a spell (like acid splash) and make an attack. Eldritch archer only allows this with ranged weapons however. So to do a spell combat routine I need to be able to make a ranged attack and cast a spell I can't spend a move action to draw a weapon. After level 2 it won't matter because I'll be able to use my gun, until the 10gp a shot is prohibitively expensive.

The free action to draw an arrow or dart or whatever would allow me to go through the whole routine round after round. As it is I'll have to start with a weapon in hand.


baggageboy wrote:

So for people to understand why I care. Spell combat allows for a full attack routine and casting a spell. So at level 1 I could cast a spell (like acid splash) and make an attack. Eldritch archer only allows this with ranged weapons however. So to do a spell combat routine I need to be able to make a ranged attack and cast a spell I can't spend a move action to draw a weapon. After level 2 it won't matter because I'll be able to use my gun, until the 10gp a shot is prohibitively expensive.

The free action to draw an arrow or dart or whatever would allow me to go through the whole routine round after round. As it is I'll have to start with a weapon in hand.

You could just use a bow and arrows for your backup ranged weapon.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
baggageboy wrote:

So for people to understand why I care. Spell combat allows for a full attack routine and casting a spell. So at level 1 I could cast a spell (like acid splash) and make an attack. Eldritch archer only allows this with ranged weapons however. So to do a spell combat routine I need to be able to make a ranged attack and cast a spell I can't spend a move action to draw a weapon. After level 2 it won't matter because I'll be able to use my gun, until the 10gp a shot is prohibitively expensive.

The free action to draw an arrow or dart or whatever would allow me to go through the whole routine round after round. As it is I'll have to start with a weapon in hand.

You could just use a bow and arrows for your backup ranged weapon.

My gun is my bonded item, so has to be in hand since you don't "wear" a gun which means no two handed weapons. I've made my peace with it. I just have to wait.


Get a blinkback belt and use whatever thrown weapon you want.

Edit: Ah, no Quick Draw. Well then.


Mostly it's not needed. After level 1 I'll just shoot things.


Wouldn't it be easier to just go Gun Tank 1st and then into eldritch archer solving your issue that way? If your worried about your spell combat swapping levels 1 and 2 around would give you gunsmithing right out the gate.


It would, but then I wouldn't have my gun and would have to come up with a mid adventure reason why I suddenly have a masterwork dragoon pistol. If I do it the other way around it can be a part of my backstory and that is much simpler.


Well Guntank would start you with a basic gun and if your GM is fine with the Dragoon Gun for the Magus then likely you could ask if you could just start with a battered Dragoon pistol and let it become the bonded object. I would as a GM especially if you explained it like you just did.

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