Question about the spell Pyrotechnics and the blind condition.


Rules Questions


So... The spell Pyrotechnics has two listed effects which you pick one or the other when casting the spell as follows:

Fireworks: The fireworks are a flashing, fiery, momentary burst of glowing, colored aerial lights. This effect causes creatures within 120 feet of the fire source to become blinded for 1d4+1 rounds (Will negates). These creatures must have line of sight to the fire to be affected. Spell resistance can prevent blindness.

Smoke Cloud: A stream of smoke billows out from the fire, forming a choking cloud that spreads 20 feet in all directions and lasts for 1 round per caster level. All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud. All within the cloud take -4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates). These effects last for 1d4+1 rounds after the cloud dissipates or after the creature leaves the area of the cloud. Spell resistance does not apply.

Now the question is, does the smoke cloud specifically confer the 'blind' condition like the Fireworks effect states, or is it just a blind-like effect?

The reason for clarification needed is: Does a creature suffer the penalties of being subject to the blind condition when inside the smoke cloud even though it does not state that the cloud causes the target to become blind?


When inside the smoke cloud? Yes, since its sight is ineffective in all directions.

IMHO the reason it doesn't say 'blind' is that the ineffective sight clause also applies to creatures outside the cloud, who are not blinded but cannot see within or through the cloud.


The smoke version doesn't cause the condition, even though the effect is the same. That means you can't remove or surpress the effect.

The penalties are applied every time a creature that normally uses vision can't see.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

When inside the smoke cloud? Yes, since its sight is ineffective in all directions.

IMHO the reason it doesn't say 'blind' is that the ineffective sight clause also applies to creatures outside the cloud, who are not blinded but cannot see within or through the cloud.

So if you've failed the fortitude save you take double the penalties? Both for the spell and the penalties for the blind condition.

With that said, would abilities that rely on a creature having the blind condition still work on creatures inside and/or around the cloud? (since the cloud affects creatures outside the cloud as well in regards to vision i.e. cannot see into or through the cloud)

I already understand blindfight works regardless because it is proc'd by concealment instead of blindness specifically.


Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

When inside the smoke cloud? Yes, since its sight is ineffective in all directions.

IMHO the reason it doesn't say 'blind' is that the ineffective sight clause also applies to creatures outside the cloud, who are not blinded but cannot see within or through the cloud.

So if you've failed the fortitude save you take double the penalties? Both for the spell and the penalties for the blind condition.

Yes.

Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
With that said, would abilities that rely on a creature having the blind condition still work on creatures inside and/or around the cloud? (since the cloud affects creatures outside the cloud as well in regards to vision i.e. cannot see into or through the cloud)

Well, as Derklord said, they don't actually have the blind condition, they just suffer penalties as if they did. Whether that's enough for an ability to work is going to be heavily ability-dependent (and in some cases GM-dependent). Can you be more specific?


Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
So if you've failed the fortitude save you take double the penalties?

I think you are unable to see into, out of, within, or through the cloud regardless of your saving throw.

Pyrotecnics wrote:
All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud.

This is the part that allows a saving throw.

Pyrotecnics wrote:
All within the cloud take -4 penalties to Strength and Dexterity (Fortitude negates).

If you have some way to cope with being Blind, such as Temorsense, Blindsight, or something, then you can see through the smoke and act normally, and the -4 ST and Dex, Fort Negating, is different.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Pyrotecnics wrote:
All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud.
This is the part that allows a saving throw.

I think this is wrong, even though the wording sounds like it a lot - the smoke prevents vision, in/out/through its area, while the -4 to dex and strength, which represents the inhaled smoke, is the (only) part that the fortitude negates (and the only part that persists after leaving the cloud).

Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
So if you've failed the fortitude save you take double the penalties? Both for the spell and the penalties for the blind condition.

No, because not only do you not have the blind condition, but you can only be not-be-able-to-see once, anyway. Any time you can't see, for whatever reason, you suffer that penalty, but it's an on/off state.


Derklord wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Pyrotecnics wrote:
All sight, even darkvision, is ineffective in or through the cloud.
This is the part that allows a saving throw.

I think this is wrong, even though the wording sounds like it a lot - the smoke prevents vision, in/out/through its area, while the -4 to dex and strength, which represents the inhaled smoke, is the (only) part that the fortitude negates (and the only part that persists after leaving the cloud).

Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
So if you've failed the fortitude save you take double the penalties? Both for the spell and the penalties for the blind condition.
No, because not only do you not have the blind condition, but you can only be not-be-able-to-see once, anyway. Any time you can't see, for whatever reason, you suffer that penalty, but it's an on/off state.

I misspoke. I think we actually agree. "This is the part that requires a Saving Throw was meant to refer to the following quote, not the previous one. I was saying that the Fort Save would only negate the ST and DEX penalty.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

When inside the smoke cloud? Yes, since its sight is ineffective in all directions.

IMHO the reason it doesn't say 'blind' is that the ineffective sight clause also applies to creatures outside the cloud, who are not blinded but cannot see within or through the cloud.

So if you've failed the fortitude save you take double the penalties? Both for the spell and the penalties for the blind condition.

Yes.

Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
With that said, would abilities that rely on a creature having the blind condition still work on creatures inside and/or around the cloud? (since the cloud affects creatures outside the cloud as well in regards to vision i.e. cannot see into or through the cloud)
Well, as Derklord said, they don't actually have the blind condition, they just suffer penalties as if they did. Whether that's enough for an ability to work is going to be heavily ability-dependent (and in some cases GM-dependent). Can you be more specific?

The spell Remove Blindness/Deafness is one that comes to mind. The spell states that it removes the blind condition from natural and magical sources.

So if the cloud causes the blind condition, a character would then be able to see in the cloud after this was cast on them?


Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

When inside the smoke cloud? Yes, since its sight is ineffective in all directions.

IMHO the reason it doesn't say 'blind' is that the ineffective sight clause also applies to creatures outside the cloud, who are not blinded but cannot see within or through the cloud.

So if you've failed the fortitude save you take double the penalties? Both for the spell and the penalties for the blind condition.

Yes.

Cpt.Redbeard wrote:
With that said, would abilities that rely on a creature having the blind condition still work on creatures inside and/or around the cloud? (since the cloud affects creatures outside the cloud as well in regards to vision i.e. cannot see into or through the cloud)
Well, as Derklord said, they don't actually have the blind condition, they just suffer penalties as if they did. Whether that's enough for an ability to work is going to be heavily ability-dependent (and in some cases GM-dependent). Can you be more specific?

The spell Remove Blindness/Deafness is one that comes to mind. The spell states that it removes the blind condition from natural and magical sources.

So if the cloud causes the blind condition, a character would then be able to see in the cloud after this was cast on them?

The Fireworks application of Pyrotechnics inflict the Blinded Condition on you, so Remove Blindness would totally work.

Remove Blindness should not work at all in the Smoke Application: it doesn't inflict the Blinded Condition on you. It just creates an effect that blocks vision. Remove Blindness doesn't give you the ability to see through a brick wall. When your Blindess is removed, and you are in the smoke, you'll be able to see just fine: you will see smoke!

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