So I had an idea of collars (or chips) invented by gnomes to convert people that wear them/have them installed to switch their alignment on the good vs. evil plane to good. Their Law vs. Chaos would stay the same. Would forcing these on people as a punishment for not upholding the city standards be an evil act? The mindset I’m going for is the Gnomes don’t want Jail, instead “criminals” either get a collar/brain chip and they do redemption for the town in good deeds/community service.
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It sounds like a lawful solution from someone who thinks that it's a way of doing good. Consider how different alignments would perceptive such a system.
It seems to be a violation of free will which is perfectly acceptable to a LG character since we are talking about criminals. After all, locking someone up in prison also removes some of that person's free will. Even LN and LE characters would see the merits of such a system as they might view it as a prison without walls. Which allows more resources to be devoted to other endeavors. Of course repeat offenders (IOW non-lawful characters), may need to suffer more extreme measures having their chip adjust the law/chaos aspect as well.
It probably wouldn't sit well with NG, N, and NE characters, but at the same time if they're being reasonable they wouldn't have an problems with it so long as its only being used on "other people". "unchipped" citizens would support and defend their lawful brethren, while those that have been subjected to the system may be resentful of it.
Finally, chaotic alignments of all stripes would see it as horrible. They would agree with the lawful that it's a prison without walls which just makes it worse. They would see it as an affront and would probably search for some way to subvert the system. Probably by looking for a way to disable the devices either subtlety or publicly depending on their current goals. They might even claim that the practice is "evil", regardless of their own typical beliefs about good and evil things.
First of all that is an outstanding break down I didn’t even think of pre monster this morning. That can be a campaign/mini adventures of its own. Be Trying to free chipped citizens or worse say a CE influence finds a way to hack it and suddenly you have a purge city where crime and rampage runs wild. The party could even be split with viewpoints of pro chipping criminals or is it an abomination.
I’d be more worried about how easily this technology could be turned to other alignments.
there's actually a way to do this in game, and it happened to one of my PC's, in the set up for a campaign. A bunch of the other PC's were followers of a specific home-brewed deity, and I wanted to a play a LE character just to mess around. In order to get me settled into the party, a high level NPC used Greater Bestow Curse, and cursed me to "only commit good actions" as the curse rather than the usual -6 stat, can't play 50% of the time. We haven't gotten that far into RP'ing yet and I'm trying to decide wether I want to start taking levels in Paladin with my new alignment and lean into converting to the faith permanently, or try to find a way to get the cursed removed, and then maybe become part of the BBEG's organization. My starting levels were Thug archetype rouge, so making a non-lethal paladin build isn't too far off.
Obviously I don't recommend doing this to your PC's without talking to them first but it can be really fun. Also yeah, curses if you want to do it by raw, and have a way for PC's to help free people. Bestow Curse can be really fun, another fun use is forcing a creature to only speak the truth as per zone of truth etc.
It depends on your view point.
My view point is, yes forcing someone via magic to change their mind is absolutely evil. Though it can be for the greater good, which can steer it in the lawful neutral or lawful evil direction.
But aside from that it probably wouldn't work the way you want. Most people, even people who commit crimes, aren't evil. So there's nothing to switch. Committing one evil act doesn't make you evil. Most people who commit 1 murder probably aren't Evil. They did an evil thing, but don't go about trying to do evil things on a daily basis. So you'd probably have a few people in society that we're genuinely evil where you could benefit from forcing them to be good.
As someone else pointed out though, the worst case would be somehow changing the device to make people evil instead.
It depends on your view point.
My view point is, yes forcing someone via magic to change their mind is absolutely evil. Though it can be for the greater good, which can steer it in the lawful neutral or lawful evil direction.
But aside from that it probably wouldn't work the way you want. Most people, even people who commit crimes, aren't evil. So there's nothing to switch. Committing one evil act doesn't make you evil. Most people who commit 1 murder probably aren't Evil. They did an evil thing, but don't go about trying to do evil things on a daily basis. So you'd probably have a few people in society that we're genuinely evil where you could benefit from forcing them to be good.
As someone else pointed out though, the worst case would be somehow changing the device to make people evil instead.
That kind of sounds like a fun campaign. The PCs stumble upon an anarchic society that uses these for punishment, after all, 90% of the time, the collars don't do anything. They're basically a joke to the general population.
But, the person who invented them is a big believer, and frustrated that their system isn't doing anything to the criminals. So they set the dial all the way to lawful stupid, and the PCs have to fix the problem, fighting people who have been enslaved by the madman.
Oh heck, I didn't notice this was in rules forum. Rules sub forum is definitely one place this discussion doesn't belong.
It's certainly *not* Evil, at least by the goalposts granted by the game. How can I be so sure? Well, Dominate Person gives total, absolute control over the affected person, depriving them of all free will, and that's not an Evil act. So, depriving someone of only some volition would absolutely not be Evil.
Personally, it sounds like a custom Helm of Opposite Alignment might be the simplest way to go about this, rather than a fully custom item. From an in-universe perspective, it might well be what the items are based on. Just a note.
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The alchemist may be more relevant.
Change Alignment (Su) (Champions of Purity pg. 24): Once per day as part of his preparation of infusions, the alchemist can brew an infusion that shifts the imbiber’s alignment to good. This change in alignment lasts for 10 minutes per alchemist level. An unwilling creature receives a Will save to resist this change. The alchemist may have only one such infusion at any one time. The effects of this infusion may have serious repercussions for a creature suddenly struggling with a new outlook. Many see it as little more than forced insanity, and some good faiths outlaw its use. An alchemist must be at least 12th level and have the infusion discovery before selecting this discovery.
Change Alignment, Greater (Su) (Champions of Purity pg. 24): The effects of the alchemist’s change alignment infusion become permanent and can only be reversed by a wish or miracle. A permanent, forced change of alignment may be devastating, and some believe it is little better than zealous slavery or mind control. Others consider a good alignment brought about by any means but purity of heart an affront to freedom. This discovery remains controversial at best. An alchemist must take the change alignment discovery and the infusion discovery before selecting this discovery.
It's certainly *not* Evil, at least by the goalposts granted by the game. How can I be so sure? Well, Dominate Person gives total, absolute control over the affected person, depriving them of all free will, and that's not an Evil act. So, depriving someone of only some volition would absolutely not be Evil.
Personally, it sounds like a custom Helm of Opposite Alignment might be the simplest way to go about this, rather than a fully custom item. From an in-universe perspective, it might well be what the items are based on. Just a note.
Many people also consider Dominate spells to be pretty evil.
It's just that saving the world is often more important than the evil of dominating an individual, and with Dominate there is a question of what you force them to do.
I think it would depend both on how it changes your alignment, and what that means. If it's a shock collar sort of thing, I'd say that lands on the evil side of the spectrum. If it's more like a phylactery of faithfulness that flashes a bright red when you decide to take an action that would reinforce an evil alignment, then I'd say it's probably okay. If the item takes the wheel whenever you would commit an evil act, I'd say it's pretty borderline, but acceptable if the punishment is an opt-in alternative to prison or banishment.
All that aside, the reasoning and purpose behind choosing this method could be evil, even if using the collars isn't. If your city specifically targeted religious, racial or political groups for collar wearing, then it's certainly evil regardless of how politely the collar nudges your alignment.
I am sure that forcing an evil character to turn good would elicit the same hostile reaction from his former comrades that players of good PCs would have to one of them being forcibly turned to evil.
But that is actually a separate question from the alignment effect, if any, that this action might have on the perpetrators.
I really don't think it's the kind of thing that would shift anyone's alignment towards good or evil, even on a large scale. But I would say it is a very non-chaotic action. I couldn't imagine a chaotic character supporting this on a grand scale.
I think it would depend both on how it changes your alignment, and what that means. If it's a shock collar sort of thing, I'd say that lands on the evil side of the spectrum. If it's more like a phylactery of faithfulness that flashes a bright red when you decide to take an action that would reinforce an evil alignment, then I'd say it's probably okay. If the item takes the wheel whenever you would commit an evil act, I'd say it's pretty borderline, but acceptable if the punishment is an opt-in alternative to prison or banishment.
All that aside, the reasoning and purpose behind choosing this method could be evil, even if using the collars isn't. If your city specifically targeted religious, racial or political groups for collar wearing, then it's certainly evil regardless of how politely the collar nudges your alignment.
My idea was when a wearer of a collar/chip thinks about doing an action deemed unacceptable to society, it erases that thought that spawned the idea and replaces it with an acceptable action thought (like suggestion with no save), if they try to blindly (not pre meditated) do an unacceptable act it would do a dominate (think more inception though) type effect forcing them into into doing some busy work community service type like say the fight goes to draw his sword he will put it away and start walking around picking up trash from the streets. No pain
This town would have a zero tolerance of crime. Wants to be able to brag they are the “safest place” on (insert planet) with statistics to prove it.
It's certainly *not* Evil, at least by the goalposts granted by the game. How can I be so sure? Well, Dominate Person gives total, absolute control over the affected person, depriving them of all free will, and that's not an Evil act. So, depriving someone of only some volition would absolutely not be Evil.
Personally, it sounds like a custom Helm of Opposite Alignment might be the simplest way to go about this, rather than a fully custom item. From an in-universe perspective, it might well be what the items are based on. Just a note.
Many people also consider Dominate spells to be pretty evil.
It's just that saving the world is often more important than the evil of dominating an individual, and with Dominate there is a question of what you force them to do.
Yeah, but we're talking in-universe here, and considering even a deity like Shelyn grants Dominate Monster to her clerics (Charm domain), it's easy to see that it's not actually Evil, at least as far as the gods are concerned.
As other people mentioned, it is absolutely a Lawful act, and given society as a whole seems to be trending towards the more Chaotic side (by that I mean they highly value individual liberty, choice, and expression), it makes sense that a Lawful act would be seen as repulsive by many. Remember, there are two axis of morality, and LN and CN are just as opposed as NG and NE.That said, one day I want to make a character that, for virtually all intents and purposes, is LG, but is actually CE, thanks to all the things that the forums argue should result in alignment change (maybe a mesmerist that steals from bandits, or a necromancer who uses his undead to work the fields, stuff like that).
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It's certainly *not* Evil, at least by the goalposts granted by the game. How can I be so sure? Well, Dominate Person gives total, absolute control over the affected person, depriving them of all free will, and that's not an Evil act. So, depriving someone of only some volition would absolutely not be Evil.
Personally, it sounds like a custom Helm of Opposite Alignment might be the simplest way to go about this, rather than a fully custom item. From an in-universe perspective, it might well be what the items are based on. Just a note.
Many people also consider Dominate spells to be pretty evil.
It's just that saving the world is often more important than the evil of dominating an individual, and with Dominate there is a question of what you force them to do.
Yeah, but we're talking in-universe here, and considering even a deity like Shelyn grants Dominate Monster to her clerics (Charm domain), it's easy to see that it's not actually Evil, at least as far as the gods are concerned.
As other people mentioned, it is absolutely a Lawful act, and given society as a whole seems to be trending towards the more Chaotic side (by that I mean they highly value individual liberty, choice, and expression), it makes sense that a Lawful act would be seen as repulsive by many. Remember, there are two axis of morality, and LN and CN are just as opposed as NG and NE.That said, one day I want to make a character that, for virtually all intents and purposes, is LG, but is actually CE, thanks to all the things that the forums argue should result in alignment change (maybe a mesmerist that steals from bandits, or a necromancer who uses his undead to work the fields, stuff like that).
That a spell doesn't have the evil tag doesn't mean that using it isn't evil. It just means that casting the spell on its own isn't evil. IN the same way swinging a sword isn't inherently evil. But killing an innocent person is.
I think it would depend both on how it changes your alignment, and what that means. If it's a shock collar sort of thing, I'd say that lands on the evil side of the spectrum. If it's more like a phylactery of faithfulness that flashes a bright red when you decide to take an action that would reinforce an evil alignment, then I'd say it's probably okay. If the item takes the wheel whenever you would commit an evil act, I'd say it's pretty borderline, but acceptable if the punishment is an opt-in alternative to prison or banishment.
All that aside, the reasoning and purpose behind choosing this method could be evil, even if using the collars isn't. If your city specifically targeted religious, racial or political groups for collar wearing, then it's certainly evil regardless of how politely the collar nudges your alignment.
My idea was when a wearer of a collar/chip thinks about doing an action deemed unacceptable to society, it erases that thought that spawned the idea and replaces it with an acceptable action thought (like suggestion with no save), if they try to blindly (not pre meditated) do an unacceptable act it would do a dominate (think more inception though) type effect forcing them into into doing some busy work community service type like say the fight goes to draw his sword he will put it away and start walking around picking up trash from the streets. No pain
This town would have a zero tolerance of crime. Wants to be able to brag they are the “safest place” on (insert planet) with statistics to prove it.
Does it make any room for extenuating circumstances? For example, an uncollared person enters town with a hidden bomb and a collared person has a crossbow and a clear shot to take him down before he blows it up. Does the collar let the shot fly for being the good act of saving everyone from a bomb, or does it follow a strict internal code that prevents the violence? If it prevents the violence, everyone dies and your town is very weak against attackers in general. If it allows the shot, then uncollared evil folks will deceive others into doing their evil work for them to avoid the collar and keep the collared folk from knowing that what they're doing is evil.
Does the collar have a R.I.C.O. act written in, or is it just immediate specific evil that it prevents?
This is starting to sound like Terry Goodkind fan fiction.