New skill and proficiency bonuses


Second Edition


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Did I understand everything correctly?

Bonuses are now:
untrained +0
trained +2 + level
expert +4 + level
master +6 + level
legend +8 + level

Or am I wrong somewhere?


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Yes, that is correct.

Silver Crusade

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Yes, that's the proficiency bonus right there. This applies to pretty much everything: Skills, Saves, Attack rolls, Armor class....


is it known if its more uniform now than in the playtest? (every class had their very own level when they would be able to become expert in a weapon or a skill)


If by uniform you mean does every class get these at the same point, then almost certainly no.

Classes will likely obtain their proficiency levels at much the same class level. There might be some tweaks, but I would expect it to be mostly the same. We wont know for sure until we get the final product.


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I think the whole idea of not adding level to untrained checks is PF2's counterpart to D&D 3E's restrictions on multiclassing by monks and paladins -- a bad idea pushed by their customers that they are already coming up with workarounds for.


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I would more argue that Untrained has no +level because you (character) have not taken any time "training" in that thus your "skill" in it doesn't progress as you do. Once you are Trained in a skill then you practice usage of it and thus as you get better you "skill" in it gets better.


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David knott 242 wrote:

I think the whole idea of not adding level to untrained checks is PF2's counterpart to D&D 3E's restrictions on multiclassing by monks and paladins -- a bad idea pushed by their customers that they are already coming up with workarounds for.

Yeah yeah we all have opinions about it, but let's not go into it here! It's been discussed ad nauseum in other threads. How about we keep this thread about how the bonuses are in PF2, not our opinions about whether that's good or not?

Regarding the question about uniformity:

The current paradigm is that not everyone will be able to reach the same proficiency levels in various things. AC, Saves, and weapon proficiency is definitely not uniform.

I also do not believe that every class necessarily receives their various proficiency increases at the same time, or at least I haven't seen anything that suggests that. This should be a fairly safe bet, because some classes go all the way to legendary while others stop at expert for various things.

Skill increases might be the same though.


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It will be interesting to see what the patterns are. I am already guessing that the martial classes have the best progressions for attack proficiencies and that those classes that start out with expert proficiency in a given save get the best proficiency progression in that save. If the patterns are regular enough, they could provide important clues to 3rd party publishers intent on creating completely new classes.

Also, one major consequence of not adding level to untrained proficiency is that you can't let characters be untrained in checks that they might be forced to make -- so, for example, all characters would have to be at least trained in Perception, unarmored defense, and all saves.


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David knott 242 wrote:

It will be interesting to see what the patterns are. I am already guessing that the martial classes have the best progressions for attack proficiencies and that those classes that start out with expert proficiency in a given save get the best proficiency progression in that save. If the patterns are regular enough, they could provide important clues to 3rd party publishers intent on creating completely new classes.

Also, one major consequence of not adding level to untrained proficiency is that you can't let characters be untrained in checks that they might be forced to make -- so, for example, all characters would have to be at least trained in Perception, unarmored defense, and all saves.

That's why you can now use unarmed strikes in addition to athletics or acrobatics to escape a grapple. Everyone is trained in unarmed strikes.


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David knott 242 wrote:

Also, one major consequence of not adding level to untrained proficiency is that you can't let characters be untrained in checks that they might be forced to make -- so, for example, all characters would have to be at least trained in Perception, unarmored defense, and all saves.

Yeah, I think those were confirmed by the end of the playtest. I think what was interesting was that they wanted to be able to roll athletics to escape grapples, and instead of abandoning that option, they let you do either athletics or reflex (or something like that).

I like the way it leaves open some more skill -> combat interaction. I wonder if there are other things like that?


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Surely there are. Having everything on the same scale opens up all sorts of possibilities.

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