Lv 14. party vs Lv. 20 Wizard


Advice

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Hello fellow players and DMs.

I and my group are after 2 years approaching the end of our campaign. We are all lv 13-14 Mythic level party of 7 players: Summoner, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger,Brawler, Rogue and Sorcerer. Our final battle is probably (we are not 100% sure but all sings point to it) againts lv 20 Wizard. We are not really trying to fight him, we are just trying to steal MacGuffin from him and if everything will go well, we wont even see him. But, when did everything go well, am I right ? :)

Our DM said: ,,you should really prepare for this,, and ,,it will be really deadly,,. This is major red flag because he never said anything like this, not even when we went to fight Pit Fient or had to face Tarrasque.

We are in magic metropolis and can buy basicly anything (not 3th party) and have 100k gold. Everybody has enough of their personal magic items (all of big 6) and I am asking for advice on support items whitch would help us in fight againts top lv caster and traps and guardians in his magic valt.


Ways to defeat magic.

Scrolls of antimagic. Scrolls of dispel. Just anything and everything you can imagine that will defeat magic. Best if it doesn't have a check or roll.

I mean, honestly with the high level magic available to a wizard this should be virtually an impossible task but that's a pretty unrewarding story so hopefully it's not the case.


Yeah dont worry, we will hopefully draft powerfull alies on our way there. And we Mythic levels and Hero Points, we might just stand a chance.

Dark Archive

This is like a group of 1st graders trying to beat up a 6th grader. Yeah, you can get lucky, but most likely the 6th grader will stomp you all. Mythic tier might help a bit though. Your best bet is to make sure that he is in a compromising position when you finally steal his thing and possibly confront him. 1st graders will have a better chance if the 6th grader is sleeping or going to the bathroom.


Yeah I am full aware how imposible is this mission. And I am also sure we wont be fighting him alone, there will be probably other npcs or there will be some mechanic how we can beat him.

But I cant prepare for those since I dont know them. Only think I can do in advance is, look at how to fight/survive high level spellcasters.


You've got me thinking about this in the opposite direction:

If I was a level 20 Wizard and I knew I was going to be attacked by a level 14 party consisting of Summoner, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Brawler, Rogue and Sorcerer, then how would I protect myself? Could I realistically expect to defeat them, or should I try to escape as soon as I can?

Hrm...

Silver Crusade

A level 20 wizard could have you treck through an impossibly large wizard mansion filled with traps, summoned and planar bound enemies designed to sap and weaken you before he even considers showing himself, if he does infact, show his actual self, to fight you.

Grand Lodge

Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

You've got me thinking about this in the opposite direction:

If I was a level 20 Wizard and I knew I was going to be attacked by a level 14 party consisting of Summoner, Cleric, Paladin, Ranger, Brawler, Rogue and Sorcerer, then how would I protect myself? Could I realistically expect to defeat them, or should I try to escape as soon as I can?

Hrm...

That's a good point. Your party should absolutely expect the wizard to be able to divine your plan.

A 20th level wizard can:
*create pocket dimensions they can hide out in as a base of operations
*Summon hoards of monsters to fight for them
*Alter terrain to suit their needs perfectly
*Create numerous defenses on a whim
*create contingencies to send themself to safety should an attack somehow break through the rest of their defenses
*divine any attack plan against them, and more importantly,
*divine WHO is trying to attack them

Your party must account for all of that and more when preparing yourselves for this heist. Account for the fact that there will almost certainly be duplicate MacGuffins and you'll have to find a way to get the right one.

Spend a lot of time divining, if able to, to help know what will be happening when you arrive. Knowing what the defenses are makes countering them so much easier.

Against the wizard, expect save DCs into the 30s, if not close to 40. Assuming 34 Int by level 20 (that's on the low end too) with 9th level spells - that alone is DC 31 before accounting for feats and other abilities.


The problem is that a 20th level wizard can make the fight a non-starter in the first place.

A 20th level wizard can be astrally projecting from their personal permanent timeless demiplane, and that they keep the McGuffin with them. Demiplanes are basically impossible to get to. The new planar adventures handbook specified that personal demiplanes usually require a week long atunement process for a tuning rod. And I presume the wizard only has one, and its with them.

So your GM has to give you a quest to get to the wizard in the first place.

It really all depends on how much the GM wants to allow you to succeed.

Honestly, with a high level wizard the GM could honestly ask you "What do you do?" And when you don't have an answer, because within the rules there isn't one, he would be within his right to say "You lose". But that would be a crappy way to run the campaign and I'm going to assume that's not what they want to do. The result though is, you need to plan with your Gm how things will proceed because the task should actually be impossible in the first place.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The 20th-level wizard would be sure to keep the odds on his side, by splitting up the party, sending some of them to other planes, getting them to fight minions in his place, or just bringing the tower/castle/dungeon down on their heads.

I would have that wizard use illusions, walls, planar travel, mundane traps and powerful minions to separate the PCs. There are a number of ways he can cast spells at them without actually being present, and those would be good starting options.

By no means would he let them get in the same room with him. No matter how many minions he has on his side, he would know that 14th-level mythic heros are not to be trifled with.

Now, if that wizard was so full of pride and hubris that he mistook the PCs for insects to be crushed, then he's a very, very stupid wizard and you've got to wonder how he made it to 20th level with that attitude.

Good luck with this. IMHO the PF game system breaks down past 10th or 12th level, but if you've got a handle on high-level play like this, more power to you.


A level 20 wizard could have the discovery Immortality. Such a wizard would have nothing but time on his hands. Dealing with the PCs or doing whatever with the MacGuffin doesn't have to happen this century or even millennium. Such a wizard could avoid fighting the PCs and yet still be in a position to win.

Edit: I suppose this doesn't help you fight such a wizard.


Syries wrote:

That's a good point. Your party should absolutely expect the wizard to be able to divine your plan.

A 20th level wizard can:
[snip]
*divine any attack plan against them, and more importantly,
*divine WHO is trying to attack them

Just curious---what spells would the wizard be using for those two divinations?


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Syries wrote:

That's a good point. Your party should absolutely expect the wizard to be able to divine your plan.

A 20th level wizard can:
[snip]
*divine any attack plan against them, and more importantly,
*divine WHO is trying to attack them

Just curious---what spells would the wizard be using for those two divinations?

The most abusive form I've seen it take is repeated castings of Augury to bolean search things and figure out the best path forward. Of course how the wizard got augury is a question, but it's possible.

Grand Lodge

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
Syries wrote:

That's a good point. Your party should absolutely expect the wizard to be able to divine your plan.

A 20th level wizard can:
[snip]
*divine any attack plan against them, and more importantly,
*divine WHO is trying to attack them

Just curious---what spells would the wizard be using for those two divinations?

Foresight, plus Simulacrum an Efreeti for free Wish to cast divination for the extreme cases.

Clairaudience and Clairvoyance for localized threats.
Discern Location to figure out where they are.
Bind minions to scout for them
Permanent symbols of scrying to know positioning.

There are plenty of ways for a wizard to get that information.

A well-built 20th level wizard cannot be defeated, even by another 20th level wizard. Between the planar shifting, demiplanes, summoned minions etc etc, it all ends in a stalemate.


Well you are level 20+ Wizard who inveted Time Travel and you traveled into past to kill one Arch-Wizard and become God. I think you should be able to deal with 7 nobodies :)


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Mythic high level PCs, in a fair fight, will stomp a level 20 wizard.

He won't give you a fair fight if the DM has any sort of sense.


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Claxon wrote:
The most abusive form I've seen it take is repeated castings of Augury to bolean search things and figure out the best path forward. Of course how the wizard got augury is a question, but it's possible.

To be fair, the Cleric can do this as well. On top of this, the 14th level Cleric's WBL is actually higher than the 20th level Wizard NPC's suggested wealth (185,000 gp vs 159,000 gp; Multiply that by 7, and you're on the wrong end of that arms race as the Wizard).

Seems like these would be your limiting factors as the Wizard:

* 159,000 gp wealth limit (if this is ignored, it's a fight against GM fiat instead of a fight against a lvl20 NPC). Ring of Freedom of Movement costs 40,000gp. Gating in an Olethrodaemon costs 12,000gp. A Symbol of <X> costs up to 5000gp. That Orange Prism Ioun stone costs 30,000gp. It adds up quick

* Action economy. You may have around 9 creatures trying to attack you between your actions. Every action could be your last. Your summons, barriers, debuffs, etc. have to last through 9 creatures each round.

* Spell slots and order. You'll probably have 6 slots for levels 7, 8, and 9. Desirable spells compete for each other in these slots, especially if you know every action must count. Time Stop, Gate, Summon Monster IX, Disjunction, Quickened Dominate Person, Quickened Wall of Force all compete for the 9th level slots. Mind Blank, Quickened Black Tentacles, Quickened Dimension Door, Summon Monster VIII, Discern Location all compete for 8th level slots.


I understand, on one side this fight is joke if it was only regular lv 20 wizard who doesnt use his brain too mutch and on other side absolutly imposible if it is lv 20+ Mythic Wizard with infinite ammount of prepared traps, minions, scrolls, gold, summons...

I dont know how hard this fight will be. I dont know if we will fight him direcly, how mutch of his strenght he will want to use againts us or if we will fight him at all...

I am fairly sure or DM will do healthy balance of both. Only thing I was asked to do is get ready to steal McGuffin from personal library of high lv caster.

Dark Archive

Otherworldly kimono on the caster... have meld with stone cast. Pass into floor and take off kimono....

Dark Archive

Never mind it will save you for 1 turn. No save but still 1 turn for free is great.


Too expensive 67k is A LOT and lv 20+ Wizard will smash DC 20 Inteligence check.


You said you're level 13-14, but what mythic tier are you?


Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Claxon wrote:
The most abusive form I've seen it take is repeated castings of Augury to bolean search things and figure out the best path forward. Of course how the wizard got augury is a question, but it's possible.

To be fair, the Cleric can do this as well. On top of this, the 14th level Cleric's WBL is actually higher than the 20th level Wizard NPC's suggested wealth (185,000 gp vs 159,000 gp; Multiply that by 7, and you're on the wrong end of that arms race as the Wizard).

Seems like these would be your limiting factors as the Wizard:

* 159,000 gp wealth limit (if this is ignored, it's a fight against GM fiat instead of a fight against a lvl20 NPC). Ring of Freedom of Movement costs 40,000gp. Gating in an Olethrodaemon costs 12,000gp. A Symbol of <X> costs up to 5000gp. That Orange Prism Ioun stone costs 30,000gp. It adds up quick

* Action economy. You may have around 9 creatures trying to attack you between your actions. Every action could be your last. Your summons, barriers, debuffs, etc. have to last through 9 creatures each round.

* Spell slots and order. You'll probably have 6 slots for levels 7, 8, and 9. Desirable spells compete for each other in these slots, especially if you know every action must count. Time Stop, Gate, Summon Monster IX, Disjunction, Quickened Dominate Person, Quickened Wall of Force all compete for the 9th level slots. Mind Blank, Quickened Black Tentacles, Quickened Dimension Door, Summon Monster VIII, Discern Location all compete for 8th level slots.

Giving the wizard PC WBL only increases CR by 1.

And as far as action economy, that is definitely where the party should lose. The wizard should be on his timeless demiplane, where he has summons. Summons which duration never ends. Imagine how many summons you can have when they never disappear. Imagine how many spells you can have active on you when they never end. Imagien how many trap spells you can have when they never end.

Not to mention that it is virtually impossible to show up to wizard's private demiplane in the first place.

The unlimited spell duration effect of timeless really replaces the need for a lot of magical gear or to carefully plan defenses. Because you can just have all of them.


Summoning stops being worthwhile at high levels, especially if mythic characters are involved.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
You said you're level 13-14, but what mythic tier are you?

Brawler is Mythic lv 1, Paladin is Mythic lv 3 and rest are Mythic lv 2.

Dark Archive

2 options and do not confuse the two and do not split efforts. If you fight do not spend anything on running away.

Fight:
Sorcerer
Quickened Truestrike -> Maximised Enervate (or telekenisis)
Lesser metamagic rod quicken, metamagic rod maximize.

Cleric & Summoner
dimensional anchor, wall of stone, Life Bubble

Talismans of breath of life(lesser). up to 3 per person in place of neck slot.

Run:
scrolls of freedom of movement,
wall of stone,
dimensional anchor,
Life Bubble,
Solid Fog

Literally eat his action economy/spells At most he should be casting 2 spells per turn. Quickened&standard and maybe a special power on a move action. Dimensional anchor + solid fog + wall of stone on turn 1 lets you run from the glabrazu he just gated in behind you. every other turn you may have to throw down a new wall/fog cloud to slow them down.


Oh one more thing to add. Make sure you research.

Chances are that the wizard has clones on another demiplane.

You think killing him once was hard enough? Think about how bad it will be when he knows what tactics you used.

Also, be prepared for a simulacrum army of the caster.


If he's mythic, he'll be able to use an extra standard action each turn to cast another spell via a scroll or staff or such. That, combined with the spell Borrowed Time (if your DM allows it to cast another quickened spell in a round) means 4 spells per turn: 1 standard, 2 quickened, and 1 from a scroll or staff. He's still got a move action after that, as well. That means he can teleport away with Walk Through Space.

He's now beating the action economy somewhat.


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Claxon wrote:


Giving the wizard PC WBL only increases CR by 1.

And as far as action economy, that is definitely where the party should lose. The wizard should be on his timeless demiplane, where he has summons. Summons which duration never ends. Imagine how many summons you can have when they never disappear. Imagine how many spells you can have active on you when they never end. Imagien how many trap spells you can have when they never end.

Not to...

That's kind of the problem, isn't it?

If you're going to use CheezeMagik, then there's no way that the PCs can actually do anything. It's actually pointless to try. As the DM, you don't even need a Wizard to accomplish this, actually; you can just design a dungeon with infinite traps, effects, and monsters. The Wizard is just the justification for doing so and feeling clever about it.

If you're going to encounter the Wizard's spells and traps without SpellCheese everywhere, then it is indistinguishable from a normal dungeon. There will be monsters, traps, and treasure. The Wizard has no reason to stick around.

If you're going to have them physically encounter the Wizard, then you're going to have to make him dumb. There's no reason that a Wizard of that level should ever involve himself in a fight with anything (especially not anything that has a chance of killing him).

I can only assume that the question refers to paragraph #3, since #1 is pointless and #2 is Business As Normal.


Rogue, to the wizard's front-man: "I represent a group of investors who have learned that your master is one of the few persons in possession of a rare (McGuffin). They are inquiring what his rate would be to craft another, or what his price would be for parting with the one that he has."

(That will throw the GM off his railroad, and open the possibility of having the L20 wizard for a patron rather than an adversary.)


Slim Jim wrote:

Rogue, to the wizard's front-man: "I represent a group of investors who have learned that your master is one of the few persons in possession of a rare (McGuffin). They are inquiring what his rate would be to craft another, or what his price would be for parting with the one that he has."

(That will throw the GM off his railroad, and open the possibility of having the L20 wizard for a patron rather than an adversary.)

And unless the PCs know something we don't about the wizard negotiation can certainly be an excellent idea.

Edit: Seems the internet has eaten a different post, I'll have to post again later.


Kayerloth wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:

Rogue, to the wizard's front-man: "I represent a group of investors who have learned that your master is one of the few persons in possession of a rare (McGuffin). They are inquiring what his rate would be to craft another, or what his price would be for parting with the one that he has."

(That will throw the GM off his railroad, and open the possibility of having the L20 wizard for a patron rather than an adversary.)

And unless the PCs know something we don't about the wizard negotiation can certainly be an excellent idea.

Edit: Seems the internet has eaten a different post, I'll have to post again later.

I didnt really wanted to complicated this, but this wouldnt work, here is why.

To explain it really quickly:

There was once a mage who attemted to achiev godhod but failed and destroyed world in the process. Hundreds of years after this event, world was reborn new and another mage from this era figure out how to go back in time. He created portal and travel just before our first mage destroyed world. He is planning to kill him and do ritual himself, but for that he needs something from his library, page from one book.

If we dont get there first or stop him somehow, he will do ritual and become god, changing timeline and killing all of us in process (not me because I am from pass, my mates came from future after him through portal).

So for everybody else plan is: 1. Get there. 2. Get the book from page and destroy it. 3.Go back to their presence. But I have a different plan. I just stupid brawler, but I am also fanatic worshiper of God of Destruction Talos. My plan is to let both main mages kill eachother and then do ritual myself, fail it and DESTROY THE WORLD MUHAHHAHAHHA


Every time I try to imagine a battle between an immortal paragon of magic facing ANY threat, I see Dr Strange with his Time Stone, and simply preventing every single threat before it every materializes.

Imagine this: You and your crew are all in your headquarters and you are all sitting around having just finished planning the attack when a being appears amongst you!

A serious looking man, simply dressed, appearing in his 50s, calmly meets each of your eyes for just a moment. Some of you are caught with a drumstick in your mouth, some sipping wine, some with heads whispering together.

He states simply, I am (said wizard). Your plans are to no avail. However, in exchange for your services dealing with X, I'll recreate (the McGuffin). There will have to be a sealed and signed contract, of course.

[If there are any threatening moves made, fade to black and recreate the scene with the caveat that whatever was used in aggression towards the wizard, spell, weapon, etc. is used up to no effect, or disappears from the possession of the owner. This continues until the party figures out they will simply run out of weapons and resources and there is no fight(spoon)]


Wizards can't rewind time to that extent.


TheGreatWot wrote:
Wizards can't rewind time to that extent.

Lol, I know. I just couldn't stop my brain. Far too much GM fiat, lol.


Kitty Catoblepas wrote:
Claxon wrote:


Giving the wizard PC WBL only increases CR by 1.

And as far as action economy, that is definitely where the party should lose. The wizard should be on his timeless demiplane, where he has summons. Summons which duration never ends. Imagine how many summons you can have when they never disappear. Imagine how many spells you can have active on you when they never end. Imagien how many trap spells you can have when they never end.

Not to...

That's kind of the problem, isn't it?

If you're going to use CheezeMagik, then there's no way that the PCs can actually do anything. It's actually pointless to try. As the DM, you don't even need a Wizard to accomplish this, actually; you can just design a dungeon with infinite traps, effects, and monsters. The Wizard is just the justification for doing so and feeling clever about it.

That's my whole point though.

The OP needs to work with their GM to talk about how they're going to do this. Because what they want to do flat out can't be accomplished by the rules. High level magic is simply too strong, it can't be defeated without GM fiat.


After level 15ish, once you get contingency, clone, and your own demiplane. A single wizard is basically unkillable, your only option is going to be to roleplay your way through the encounter, unless your GM is one of those people who doesn't do any roleplaying, and always starts combat with less than 100 feet between you and whatever you're encountering.


Right. So basic of basics like people have said: research the target.
Start with Legend Lore. That should tell you a bit about him, and hopefully what kind of spells he likes using.

The other big hope would be to find out if this guy has any enemies you can grab as allies. With Resurrection available to the party that means you can raise any enemy you can get a piece of that is less than 140 years dead. Of course living enemies would be preferred. Especially ones that can contribute both combatants and funds to the cause.

Also talking to beings that have witnessed his most recent combats would be highly informative.

Even if you can't get high level help, being able to secure a few NPCs that can cast Dimensional Anchor will save the party a valuable action.

Do not depend on anything the wizard could counter. He will. Do not depend on dispel magic, you're 6 caster levels behind. SR and dispel magic will be useless.

If you have enough time, get your sorcerer to cast Simulacrum 3 times to create a Hag's coven. Include at least 1 green hag so you have access to the basic coven magic. Now make sure your entire party has Mind Blank for the final fight. Bring along invisibility items. Now there is no way for the wizard (or each other) to detect you. Actually you might want to use Invisibility Sphere while you locate what you need, because that way the party can see each other. Then quickly cast improved invisibility for those that need it. Not being targetable should make the fight a bit more fair...or utterly unfair if the wizard isn't ready for it.


If your going to try and kill god (like a 20th level wizard) you'll need the number two head band, and maybe some levels in samurai.
Jokes and References aside, just catch him off guard. I don't know if you have ever played shadow run. That game is crazy lethal, a single poorly prepped combat usually means a party member death. I would treat this the same way. Do a lot of leg work, information is going to be power here. I don't know your DM, so I can't say what he'll do, but if the whole team plans an attack, he should at least let you catch the wizard off guard, which might give you a shot at him. Stealth will be paramount, followed up by quickly deactivating his contingency spells and a dimensional anchor for good measure. On a good day one or two of you might get power word kill'd, but its a small price to pay in the larger scheme. Also torch his corpse and use disintegrate, etc. so he doesn't come back and clap the whole party at a later date.

Round One Surprise round things to have:
Greater Dispel Magic (for contingency)
Dimensional Anchor
A large damage pool

Expect to Run into:
Scrying
An Alarm spell (you have no idea how many folks forget the low level stuff)
Permanent Runes of at least one variety.
A instant kill glyph in his spell book for anyone trying to learn from it
Contingency (the spell), which can cast spells even while the wizard is unaware!
A fake of some kind, maybe a simulacrum, maybe some illusions, or just a strait up stunt double.

Niceties, etc.:

Mage manacels
This is really dumb, but it sooo dumb it might actually work, cast silence+paralyze. He won't be able to do too much unless for some reason he prepped a ton (like a ton) of silent + still spells.

Option Two TACTICAL NUKE

A) Whip up a Tornado with Control Winds, and just keep casting new tornadoes. Here are the weather rules if your curious.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/weather/

B) The original, bag of holding + portable hole, "cheap" for your level, effective, lost to the void forever TM


EstabanDeLaFerroVenté wrote:

If your going to try and kill god (like a 20th level wizard) you'll need the number two head band, and maybe some levels in samurai.

Jokes and References aside, just catch him off guard. I don't know if you have ever played shadow run. That game is crazy lethal, a single poorly prepped combat usually means a party member death. I would treat this the same way. Do a lot of leg work, information is going to be power here. I don't know your DM, so I can't say what he'll do, but if the whole team plans an attack, he should at least let you catch the wizard off guard, which might give you a shot at him. Stealth will be paramount, followed up by quickly deactivating his contingency spells and a dimensional anchor for good measure. On a good day one or two of you might get power word kill'd, but its a small price to pay in the larger scheme. Also torch his corpse and use disintegrate, etc. so he doesn't come back and clap the whole party at a later date.

Round One Surprise round things to have:
Greater Dispel Magic (for contingency)
Dimensional Anchor
A large damage pool

Expect to Run into:
Scrying
An Alarm spell (you have no idea how many folks forget the low level stuff)
Permanent Runes of at least one variety.
A instant kill glyph in his spell book for anyone trying to learn from it
Contingency (the spell), which can cast spells even while the wizard is unaware!
A fake of some kind, maybe a simulacrum, maybe some illusions, or just a strait up stunt double.

Niceties, etc.:

Mage manacels
This is really dumb, but it sooo dumb it might actually work, cast silence+paralyze. He won't be able to do too much unless for some reason he prepped a ton (like a ton) of silent + still spells.

Option Two TACTICAL NUKE

A) Whip up a Tornado with Control Winds, and just keep casting new tornadoes. Here are the weather rules if your curious.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/environment/weather/

B) The original, bag of holding + portable hole, "cheap" for your level, effective, lost to the...

Thanks, this sounds like well thought plan. Someone else also suggested just using Mage Disjunction as soon as we see him.

Also I wanted buy 2 Bags of Holding and have it as trumph card but I cant really find enought information about that interaction.

Like everybody is memeing about it but only thing written in rule is: If a bag of holding is placed within a portable hole, a rift to the Astral Plane is torn in the space: bag and hole alike are sucked into the void and forever lost. If a portable hole is placed within a bag of holding, it opens a gate to the Astral Plane: the hole, the bag, and any creatures within a 10-foot radius are drawn there, destroying the portable hole and bag of holding in the process.

Maybe I am missing something but this doesnt sound that destructive. Like even if I manage to cath him in it, he will just teleport back or something.


Meirril wrote:

Right. So basic of basics like people have said: research the target.

Start with Legend Lore. That should tell you a bit about him, and hopefully what kind of spells he likes using.

The other big hope would be to find out if this guy has any enemies you can grab as allies. With Resurrection available to the party that means you can raise any enemy you can get a piece of that is less than 140 years dead. Of course living enemies would be preferred. Especially ones that can contribute both combatants and funds to the cause.

Also talking to beings that have witnessed his most recent combats would be highly informative.

Even if you can't get high level help, being able to secure a few NPCs that can cast Dimensional Anchor will save the party a valuable action.

Do not depend on anything the wizard could counter. He will. Do not depend on dispel magic, you're 6 caster levels behind. SR and dispel magic will be useless.

If you have enough time, get your sorcerer to cast Simulacrum 3 times to create a Hag's coven. Include at least 1 green hag so you have access to the basic coven magic. Now make sure your entire party has Mind Blank for the final fight. Bring along invisibility items. Now there is no way for the wizard (or each other) to detect you. Actually you might want to use Invisibility Sphere while you locate what you need, because that way the party can see each other. Then quickly cast improved invisibility for those that need it. Not being targetable should make the fight a bit more fair...or utterly unfair if the wizard isn't ready for it.

No need to worry about this. Maybe we dont know enought about our enemy, but we know a lot about HIS enemies :) and some of them will help us.

Also your idea with Hags sounds amazing. I just hope our DM will allow us to do this and also I am worried about time. I think we have only 24 hours before mission starts.


Thoughts
-The PCs do not need to kill the Wizard to accomplish their goal.
-There are fates far worse than dying when you are 20th level (or even 14th with Mythic levels).
Wizard created demiplanes are not as permanent as one might think:

Spell Index, text of Create Demiplane, Lesser wrote:
As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane. The creature may resist with a Will saving throw. An ejected creature goes to the closest plane to your demiplane (usually the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane, but if you cast this spell on the Material Plane, the creature is sent to the Material Plane). When the spell ends, the plane dissolves, and all creatures in the plane are ejected in this manner with no saving throw. The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish, mage's disjunction, miracle, or wish and making a successful dispel check.

Might be beyond the party or not, but in general the spell isn't without its drawbacks that seem to get forgotten at times in threads like this.

-Wizards even 20th level ones can be killed. Killing them isn't the problem it's them not staying dead. But usually there's a delay between getting dead and not being dead anymore.
-And there is always someone more powerful (or more lucky) than the current creature. In other words 20th level Wizards have folks that can make them wish they were dead.
-For every divination there's an abjuration. It's an endless 'arms' race.
-There are no wizards who know of and have access to every spell in existance. The folks who do are more commonly known as deities of magic. Just because you've never seen a Sunder Planar Boundary spell doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Doubly so in a world where Time Travel magic exists.
-Don't rely on Antimagic. Not everything magic fails in Antimagic. I wouldn't count on 20th level wizards not knowing what does work in Antimagic or Dead Magic areas.
-Clones won't have the equipment of the original. Their equipment is unique to them and generally provided by the original. There goes some more WBL (possibly)


Kayerloth wrote:

Thoughts

-The PCs do not need to kill the Wizard to accomplish their goal.
-There are fates far worse than dying when you are 20th level (or even 14th with Mythic levels).
Wizard created demiplanes are not as permanent as one might think:
Spell Index, text of Create Demiplane, Lesser wrote:
As a standard action, you may eject a creature from your demiplane. The creature may resist with a Will saving throw. An ejected creature goes to the closest plane to your demiplane (usually the Astral Plane or the Ethereal Plane, but if you cast this spell on the Material Plane, the creature is sent to the Material Plane). When the spell ends, the plane dissolves, and all creatures in the plane are ejected in this manner with no saving throw. The plane cannot be dispelled, but a creature on the plane can destroy it by using limited wish, mage's disjunction, miracle, or wish and making a successful dispel check.

Might be beyond the party or not, but in general the spell isn't without its drawbacks that seem to get forgotten at times in threads like this.

-Wizards even 20th level ones can be killed. Killing them isn't the problem it's them not staying dead. But usually there's a delay between getting dead and not being dead anymore.
-And there is always someone more powerful (or more lucky) than the current creature. In other words 20th level Wizards have folks that can make them wish they were dead.
-For every divination there's an abjuration. It's an endless 'arms' race.
-There are no wizards who know of and have access to every spell in existance. The folks who do are more commonly known as deities of magic. Just because you've never seen a Sunder Planar Boundary spell doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Doubly so in a world where Time Travel magic exists.
-Don't rely on Antimagic. Not everything magic fails in Antimagic. I wouldn't count on 20th level wizards not knowing what does work in Antimagic or Dead Magic areas.
-Clones won't have the equipment of the original. Their...

Kayerloth, the Planar Adventures handbook specified that attuning a rod to a plane (such as a wizard's demiplane) takes a least 1 week of the item residing on the plane. Outside of the tuning rod it is impossible* to reach the plane (you need to plane shift to the plane which requires an attuned rod). So you can't destroy it because you can't reach it. And if you can somehow reach it, destroying the plane will probably be the least of your concerns compared to all the other stuff that will probably be there.

*Technically if you can find the wizard's demiplane on either the astral or ethereal planes, both of which are infinite in size, you can maybe cross the line and stumble into it. This is basically GM fiat though.


Or use the portal. Not all, in fact most I'd hazard, don't seal themselves away with no intent, now or in the future, of ever leaving again or

A) It's going to be a very short adventure

B) Spells might exist ( dm or otherwise created) that will allow for finding and accessing an otherwise sealed demiplane. While the DM might know the limits in his campaign it is somewhat foolish and metagame for a PC who creates a demiplane to assume they know all the ways his stronghold might be breached.

C) And a campaign involving time travel by multiple parties is already well off into DM fiat realm.


Bizarre sidethought can you even spend a week on a 'timeless' demiplane? Using another plane as reference (in this case the material) brings up other zaniness, such as "I'm off the astral where everything happens faster so ... "


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Mail him a nice box filled with high quality wine bottles and hope he gets drunk that night.

More seriously, it depends on whether your GM is sending a 'player' style wizard, or a 'just some guy' wizard.

Player style characters are strange, strange beasts. They can obsessively plot and plan traps, and they are willing to sleep with 4-6 people in the same inn room 'in case assassins show up' (even if they have no reason to believe that might happen). They can live off of the barest of rations without complaint, and it is questionable if they ever use the bathroom.

"Just a guy" style character would be more likely to choose their home and environment based upon personal comfort and preferences. They get drunk, and then they walk around the next morning in a hungover daze while looking for coffee. And for gameplay purposes, they may have made arrangements based upon momentary whims that would threaten their personal security (such as hiring a new cute 'maid' that they spotted while walking in town last week, and they gave her a [highly stealable] security pass that would allow her to go out and visit her family).

The difficulty in this heist depends largely upon the play style of your GM. We've seen plenty of comments about how the vast power of a wizard can be used to their full potential. The real question- has the GM also mastered the low potential use of a man that has received the ultimate version of a tenured professor?

Silver Crusade

If a wizard is in a timeless demiplane, then would he even be able to refill his spells per day? Time doesn't pass, so he can't refill them?


If he's also immortal, he could add a section of the demiplane that's not timeless and prep spells there. Or make a new demiplane.


Dispel Magic.

You have 3 PCs that should have access to Dispel Magic/Greater Dispel Magic. Unless you somehow stack the DC to dispel the wizard's spells, he's sitting at a DC 31 to dispel his magic. Granted, the part casters are only getting a +14 to their dispel check (needing a 17 on the die), but they can take Mythic options to boost their caster levels and dispel checks.

And the best thing to do is to fully stat out this wizard. Right now, we're dealing with Schrodinger's Wizard who has all the best spells in his spellbook and no spells prepared until he needs them. Having a bunch of summons and demiplanes and permanent divinations feeding him all of the answers he needs is fine, unless he took Conjuration and Divination as he opposition schools.

Also, why are they fighting this wizard?


Xaimum Mafire wrote:


Also, why are they fighting this wizard?

Something about Time Travel, a ritual, apocalypse, and becoming a god. If you go through the OPs replies you get the whole story.

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