Lv 14. party vs Lv. 20 Wizard


Advice

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rorek55 wrote:
If a wizard is in a timeless demiplane, then would he even be able to refill his spells per day? Time doesn't pass, so he can't refill them?

It's not that it doesn't pass, it just doesn't do as much.

Planar Adventures page 59, Time Traits wrote:
The passage of time is always subjective for the viewer. This subjectivity applies to various planes: travelers may discover that they gain or lose time while moving between planes, but from their point of view, time always passes normally.
Planar Adventures page 59, Timeless wrote:
On planes with this trait, time still passes but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, afflictions, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging apply retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a duration other than instantaneous is permanent until dispelled.

I think regaining spells and other per-day abilities works fine regardless of the plane's time trait, but I don't actually have text to that effect.


Just my opinion, but since this is apparently the major event that the entire campaign is leading up to, I don't think finding the BBG is even a question.

There won't be any hidden demiplane that the BBG hides out on. Maybe one the BBG retreats to, if the GM has plans for this to be a reoccurring BG. But that doesn't sound like what is going to happen. This should be the final wrap up for a long campaign.

That doesn't mean the BG won't have some sort of ambush set up. We're talking about a wizard. They are very weak to being ambushed, and very strong when on the other side of that ambush. The more straight up your approach is, the more advantage a wizard has because that fits into their expectations. If you really need to fight a wizard, find an angle that they wizard has never considered. That would mean they have no defense set up.

Then again, we're talking about a time travel story. If the GM likes time traveling BGs then they know exactly what you are doing because they have seen it before. The more the GM likes time travel, the more of a pain in the ass the story becomes.


Kayerloth wrote:

Or use the portal. Not all, in fact most I'd hazard, don't seal themselves away with no intent, now or in the future, of ever leaving again or

A) It's going to be a very short adventure

B) Spells might exist ( dm or otherwise created) that will allow for finding and accessing an otherwise sealed demiplane. While the DM might know the limits in his campaign it is somewhat foolish and metagame for a PC who creates a demiplane to assume they know all the ways his stronghold might be breached.

C) And a campaign involving time travel by multiple parties is already well off into DM fiat realm.

I'm going to have to hugely disagree.

A wizard will not have a portal to his private demiplane, unless its an antimagic demiplane. Why? Because that's a weak point.

A 20th level wizard can firstly leave his demiplane via astral projection, without actually leaving the plane. For most purposes of interacting with the material plane this will be sufficient. But more importantly, the wizard can leave and return via plane shift. Opening a permanent portal would be inviting people into your plane. Something most wizards absolutely wouldn't want. And ever since Planar adventures specified that it take a tuning rod spending a week on the specified plane to attune itself so it can be used to plane shift to a plane makes it basically impossible to reach a wizards demiplane unless he wants you to. Or in the case, unless the GM wants you to. Those are simply the rules. The GM is free to make up reasons or ways, allows spells and such, to make it possible. But via the rules there is no compelled reason to provide the players means to access the wizard.


Oh heck, if we're talking about a time travel story then he simplest solution is to go back in time to before the wizard got the McGuffin (because the goal is to get the McGuffin, not necessarily to fight/kill the wizard) and intercept it. Presumably, the wizard will be weaker.

Subverting the wizard ever having had the McGuffin is far easier than fighting the wizard....probably.


Claxon wrote:


That's my whole point though.

The OP needs to work with their GM to talk about how they're going to do this. Because what they want to do flat out can't be accomplished by the rules. High level magic is simply too strong, it can't be defeated without GM fiat.

My point is that without contrivances to tone down encounters to where they're not impossible at the level you'd meet them, every adventure would be impossible. A 20th level wizard is just a high-level example of this.

Adventures are based on inefficient use of resources to allow the party to proceed. Storytelling is based on the need to justify these uses in order to preserve the suspension of disbelief.


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I don't agree that you encounters would have to be "impossible" for the level you encounter them. But often within the greater context of a story you are right.

Why does Karzoug not order his generals to go and kill the PCs directly the first time they're on the radar for the Rune Lord in ROTRL? Well, because that'd make for a s*%~ty story. So we come up with in story reasons and kind of ignore the issue.


Heh :D
We might not agree about access to a demiplane as a weakness or not, but I think we agree the potential for time travel opens a Pandora's Box worth of issues/solutions.

PS: without houserules or mythic power using plane shift means the demiplane is enormous. At least 5 miles in radius or otherwise accounting for its problematic accuracy for either invader or returning caster

Silver Crusade

Claxon wrote:

I don't agree that you encounters would have to be "impossible" for the level you encounter them. But often within the greater context of a story you are right.

Why does Karzoug not order his generals to go and kill the PCs directly the first time they're on the radar for the Rune Lord in ROTRL? Well, because that'd make for a s!+@ty story. So we come up with in story reasons and kind of ignore the issue.

To be fair, karzoug is EXCEPTIONALLY prideful, full of himself, and quite overconfident. Why go hunt down some random mortals? Its not like they can breach my lair, and if they did, its not like they can defeat my minions or godsforbid me! Haha!.

At least, thats the idea I get from him.

Its actually the better descion at the time to ignore them IMO. IIRC.


Maybe right at the first time encountered, but Karzoug should be aware of the repeated failure of his minions. He's also the Runelord of Greed and not Pride, so while prideful he shouldn't be so prideful to ignore the repeated failure of his team.

At a certain point he should really say to his generals, "I want you to go and kill them and bring me their heads yourself".

Kayerloth wrote:

Heh :D

We might not agree about access to a demiplane as a weakness or not, but I think we agree the potential for time travel opens a Pandora's Box worth of issues/solutions.

PS: without houserules or mythic power using plane shift means the demiplane is enormous. At least 5 miles in radius or otherwise accounting for its problematic accuracy for either invader or returning caster

I can agree to disagree agreeably on the weakness part. But I absolutely agree that time travel opens up a Pandora's Box worth of problems and solutions.

As far as how plane shift works with demiplanes....I have to assume it works since the spell (Create Lesser Demiplane) calls out returning via plane shift, despite the 5 mile minimum error in arriving at a specific spot. I assume you just end up at the edge of the demiplane. Unless you have a demiplane larger than 5 miles.


If possible, try to do research on the Wizard itself.

Yes yes, every wizard becomes god at level 13 or so, and your GM has warned you to prepare and this might be deadly, a thing you say he doesn't do often if ever.

But I'm guessing the wizard didn't spring into reality during the last session, they had to have existed at some point in the world.

See what info you can get before heading off to fight them. What Schools do they study, what's their base/hideout/tower like, do they have helpers, monsters, or are they known for summoning armies?

Yes all those questions and more could be faked by the wizard to give false info to their enemies but I feel it might be easier to prepare against what the wizard is KNOWN to do or is said to have DONE than what the Wizard Class CAN do.

Cause otherwise you prepare against the whole spell list and if the GM really wants to end you, hello Timestop+Lantern Archon army.


Thanks guys for all your helpfull advices, you are right this fight will be decided by GM. We obviously cant hope to defeat lv 20+ Mythic Prepared Wizard in his home with infinite time to prepare but I think we wont have to, there will be comparable friendly NPCs who will face his full wrath.
I am just doing my best to prepare for his ,,weaker,, spells, minions and servants who still can have acces to lv 20 magic.
Basicly we have very little information and not really time to get mutch more intel on him, so I am just preparing for worst case I can prepare (and can find in books, he can have custom NPC only spells obviously) for: lv 20 Wizard.
Our game will be played on 29th Jun and I will post summary of it here for all of you who are curios and as thanks for your help :)


Also about the whole time travel. If I understand it correctly there is stable portal between 2 points in time and people can go from future to past and past to future. But from what we know know BBEG cant just create another portal if this doesnt work and if everything goes as it should world will end and then will be reborn new, that should deal with paradoxes.
Also not sure if I explained this correctly but we are stealing page from book of Wizard A (one who should destroy the world with his ritual) and Wizard B (our BBEG, the one who came from future) is trying to steal it. So he probably has his demiplane or something like that but he is also on time limit.


Hello friends,

3 weeks ago I made a post asking for help with our upcoming fight with BBEG, lv 20+ Wizard. I got surprisingly huge response, so many people recommended useful spells, magic items, tricks how to overcome high lv magic and very useful sources where to look for more.

I myself spend about 30+ hours planning for this final mission. Doing research, counting money, selling items, making sure all my teammates will be in their best fighting shape, deciding for most useful scrolls and best recovery options....
It was a lot of work, but also a lot of fun. Now, I would like to tell you that with your help and my preparation we fought heroic battle and through sacrifice and hardship we were victorious...

But I would be lying. Truth is, there wasn't any bossfight. Or any dangerous enemies. And we didn't needed any smart and cunning plan to succeed. Thing just sort of happened. If our last mission was mission in PC game, I would say it was 80% cutscenes.
At beginning we were promised 9 days before main event and I wanted to use them for planning how to get into castle (we had invitations but we wouldn't be able to carry our weapons) and gathering more informations about place, important NPCs... But when we started, DM told me we are skipping all of them.
It's a D day, no time to get ready. So we went to main entry of the castle where they were checking all guests. Again no time for smart moves, DM was rushing us inside, we came 1 hour before but time was going 1min=1sec irl :/ We were marked by same sort of magic mark and were given magic bracelets. Also all our scrolls, potions and support items, basically all things I had in my Handy Haversack were confiscated. This was problem but I was hoping we can try to recover them, once inside.
Our casters were able to investigate those bracelets and found out they were blocking ,,hostile,, magic. What ,,hostile,, magic is wasn't clear and there was a lot of holes in it, because Summoner could summon his Eidolon and later our Sorcerer was able to cast Form of Dragon. Also we could freely use Teleportation...
So yeah we went to the main room 12 hours before main event. This was something I didn't expected, most buffs whitch were casted on me had duration 6 hours. Only Mindblank had duration of 24 hours.
Few things happend, like we found magic tree, and mindconfusing fountain (whitch was actually biggest fight of this entire session), and played some cards with god and rescued one NPC from him. But all those were sidequests and had more or less nothing to do with main event.
Then we met daughter of our BBEG, our Ranger managed to seduce her and she agreed to have private meeting with him, in her father's personal library, 1 hour before main event.
There was not real problem to get there, we were just pretending to be drunk and one friendly NPC just made guards look the other way and we were in.
Our Ranger was distracting girl with poetry and sex and rest of us were stealing the book. There was 1 trap our Summoner disabled and one he didn't, some sort of rainbow spell, whitch was doing different effect based on whitch colour hit you.
We were searching for specific page but didn't find it, the book was fake. Somehow this all took 1 hour and we had to rush back to main room, since our Wizard was about to start with his ritual. There was giant snake, some golems and few guards but teleportation was working so who cares.
Our Wizard started his big ritual, we didn't know what to do, our Paladin tried to go near him with Antimagic Field but it did nothing. So we just all jumped at him with our mean faces. This is the time when I was expecting timestop or wall of force but there was nothing. When Wizard saw how mean our faces were he got scared and lost concetration on his ritual. This caused giant magic explosion whitch killed him and left all of us at 1 hp (hmmmmm....). Then entire castle started to falling (like Red Keep in S8) down so we ran back to his library, used his teleportation device and went home. Some epilogue dialogues happend after this. THE END.

Now this may all sound really negatice and I won't lie I am not happy that work I have done wasn't need at all in the end and it was sutch cakewalk, but maybe this was my fault. Maybe it was never ment to be big bossfight, or some intrigued heist but rather end of journey group of players were walking togethere for 2 years, the journey I joined just for last 6 months.

Wasn't sure if I should write this, I wish I have better story for you, but for all your help you deserve to know what happend. Once again thanks for your help.


Ouch.

I am sorry. That's a tremendous letdown, not to mention taking player agency away? Does not sound fun at all.

Hopefully your next campaign has a more satisfying conclusion.


Well, that's that then. I guess.


Dαedαlus wrote:

Ouch.

I am sorry. That's a tremendous letdown, not to mention taking player agency away? Does not sound fun at all.

Hopefully your next campaign has a more satisfying conclusion.

Yeah well it's over, overall story was interesting and session itself wasn't that bad. We had beers, barbecue and were chatting around fire. That was great.


Wait, the *ranger* seduced the girl into the sack by reading her poems?

...I guess he was one of those Aragon-handsome types....


Best solution take the 100k and pay a Slayer lv 20 to kill him


Zepheri wrote:
Best solution take the 100k and pay a Slayer lv 20 to kill him

Why a Slayer? At least if you had said a Level 20 Ninja I might have been able to take you seriously, but a Level 20 Slayer? What's that going to accomplish?

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