Can Cogsnap's final Bloodbomber power be updated?
□ The first (□or any) Alchemical or Liquid item you play does not count against the number of items you can play on a check or step.
□ The first (□ or any) Alchemical or Liquid item you play may be played freely.
I don't have them marked on the spreadsheet, but I think that Cogsnap and a few others have powers that the developers need to discuss with regard to the "freely" wording. Vic posted a caution a few pages back on this, so we didn't pull the trigger on implementing those changes until the developers give the green light.
I suppose we should go through and identify all of those now. I've marked the Cogsnap power that MorkXII referred to.
It looks like Sarkoris Guide Alase's final power does not match Vic's statement here.
□ When a character at Tonbarse’s location fails to defeat a non-story bane and would shuffle it into their location, you may draw Tonbarse and display him at another open location to shuffle the bane into that location instead.
□ When a character at Tonbarse’s location fails to defeat a non-story bane monster or barrier and would shuffle it into their location, you may draw Tonbarse and display him at another open location to shuffle the bane into that location instead.
I've fixed it. Thanks.
OK, here it is:
If you fail this check against a non-story bane monster, you may reload the monster into its locationIt also shows the non-story bane construction...Yes, but note that just saying "non-story bane" would be inappropriate when you're trying to exclude non-banes.
That is to say, ”story bane” is a compound noun, so “story” should not be treated as an adjective modifying “bane.” “Non-story bane” would be read as “non-(story bane),” aka any card that’s not a story bane (be it bane, boon, or other). Just as “non-blessing” is any card that’s not a blessing.
If you want to refer to any bane other than a story bane, the phrase you would need to use is “non-story bane monster or barrier.”
Sorry for the very slow response, but I don't think this interpretation shared by Vic is accurate to the final wording on multiple (post-Core) printed cards.
Take, for example, the Harrow Blessing The Midwife.
When a local character would encounter a boon or a non-story bane, discard to exchange that card with a new card of the same type instead; all checks against it are blessed.
Discard to explore. This exploration, the first time you would encounter a boon or a non-story bane, you may exchange it with a new one of the same type instead.
By Vic's statement, The Midwife literally says "When a local character would encounter a boon or [any non-story-bane card, including boons]", and can be used against Ships and other Support cards in the rare situations that they are encountered (including Cohorts, I suppose).
I'm not saying I don't follow Vic's logic, I'm just publicly warning that it is not consistent with at least one Curse of the Crimson Throne card as-printed, and I believe it may not be consistent with a few others (but I'd need to look closer to re-find them).
I haven't been 100% keeping up with this thread (each time I swing by I see you're doing tons of work and Mike and Vic are checking in, so I just get happy and move on), but I had a chance to look over the spreadsheet a bit more today and noticed that you're performing actions (including draw) on cards directly from the recovery pile in at least one place.
Generally speaking, that's not something that should be allowed without heavy restrictions as it can allow you to bypass use restrictions on cards (such as Charm Person, Commune, Miracle, and Time Stop) or characters (Divine spells on Arcane casters, for instance) that genuinely should get buried or banished after use.
Edit: I see you've identified those problems above, so replying to:
"1. Omit the recovery pile (this is a reduction in the powers' potency).
2. Include the recovery pile without qualifier (this is an increase in the powers' potency, sometimes significant).
3. Include the recovery pile with qualifier, either as a standardized wording on the power (3A) or (preferably) an errata to the rulebook (3B).
What I'd like to focus our discussion on is developing proposals for 3A and 3B. Ultimately, I think this one needs to be addressed by the developers."
As Chad said in the conversion blog, recovery was partially created as a solution for a gameplay problem around repetition. This was applied universally to all casters and methods, whether it was drawing from discards or healing from discards then drawing from deck. So, the answer should unfortunately be 1 here.
If there are characters who are actually broken by this change, rather than inconvenienced by having to wait a round, can we list those here, and I'll look them over at one time?
P.S. Also, Kasmir doesn't need Divine proficiency since he already has Healing proficiency, so even on a Divine only spell like Cure, he still passes the "If proficient" test.
This is one of the issues which brought me to this thread, so I'm glad to have developer attention drawn to it!
Before your combat check, you may discard a card to draw a card that has the Arcane ([ ] or Magic) (or mastered/[ ] or Corrupted) trait from your discard pile.
Previously, WotR Seoni could use a single Attack spell multiple times to handle multiple combat checks each turn. Now separate Attack spells are needed for sequential checks, multiple explores, summons, etc. So while it is repetitive, it seems to be intended repetition, in the same way that, for example, Core Seoni can repeatedly cast an Arcane + level + 2d4 Force spell. (The ability is a direct parallel with WotR Seoni, a variation on the prototypical sorcerer "discard a card as an Attack spell" ability.)
S&S Feiya has a similar issue: she could substitute allies to recast spells. And similar powers are also on roles of S&S Seltyiel and MM Amhotep. (I didn’t see anything in character decks with a quick search, although I’m not as familiar with those as with base set characters.)
You may discard ([ ] or recharge/) an ally that has the Animal trait (/[ ] or any ally) to return a spell from your discard pile to your hand.
[ ] You may discard ([ ] or recharge) a spell to draw a spell from your discard pile.
[ ] You may discard a spell to draw a weapon from your discard pile ([ ] or discard a weapon to draw a spell from your discard pile).
I considered how the WotR Seoni Corruptor power essentially simulates playing a blessing out of the blessings discard pile, and tried to adapt that into playing a spell out of the recovery pile.
During your combat check, you may display a card to play it as if it instead has the powers and card type of an Arcane ([ ] or Magic) (or mastered/[ ] or Corrupted) card in your recovery pile or discards; the card you choose cannot be one that could be banished or buried during recovery. During recovery, discard the displayed card.
This would be a mechanical change, since the chosen card has to be used immediately, rather than redrawn into the hand. (The flavor justification being that this is an alternate way of casting a spell, rather than a healing ability.) Setting aside a card until end of turn by displaying it provides a resource cost, although admittedly that may not be enough of a cost to limit degeneracy. And I'm not sure whether the other affected characters (eg S&S Feiya) are too open to abuse without the something like WotR Seoni's in-combat limitation. (I’m not certain that the timing of “During your combat check” works as I intend, but that’s a wording issue.)
I think that the issue with whether or not to add the recovery pile comes down to the developers' intent. On the surface, most of the powers look like omitting the recovery pile would be nothing more than an inconvenience. However, another factor to consider is the overall synergy with other powers. Under legacy rules, there might be times where the ability to recharge/draw/whatever a card from discards enables the later use of that card (or activation of a power using that card) matters.
The addition of the recovery pile to the powers was nothing more than an effort to stick to the goal of literally translating powers from legacy to Core Set - translating without substantively affecting powers (whether improving them or nerfing them). As we've seen, though, you can't just add "or the recovery pile" to the powers without throwing things off kilter; and there's no simple addition to the wording to balance things. In addition, that literal translation doesn't take into account where the developers intended for the changes to necessarily reduce power effectiveness (in this case, by reducing the pool of cards that characters can choose from by omitting the recovery pile).
Ultimately, it's going to come down to whether or not the relative balance of the overall power synergy is at the level desired by the developer's for character theme and balance. All we can do (I think) is identify the perceived effects and perceived balance. It's really going to come down to whether or not the developers think that the omission of the recovery pile preserves the characters at a relative level of balance that is desired.
I'm going through the various characters now to develop my own feedback to Keith's question.
I've also added the latest Conversion Guide updates that Vic posted to the spreadsheet. I'll post an update soon.
I'm going through the various characters now to develop my own feedback to Keith's question.
Many thanks!
I'll continue to keep an eye on this thread for this topic.
Sorry for the delay in responding - I got distracted pretty heavily with some other things.
I concur with the statement above that WotR Seoni appears to be affected more significantly than others, in a way that will affect how people are able to use her. The question that has to be raised is whether or not that power was intended to be used in that way. When you look at the second power, it appears that the design intent was that she would automatically recharge Attack spells (□ items) and the first power was designed for non-Attack spells (□ items). Players being smart, though, they capitalized on the "you may" portion of the second power to quickly recycle Attack spells. Had the first power been intended to fully mesh with the second, the power feat would have been for items instead of the Magic trait. So this one comes down to the developers' intent.
All of the others, though, look like they can be classified as inconvenience.
The question I would pose is whether or not the creation of the recovery pile was designed to have this effect. If it was, then I don't see a big issue. If this is an unintended consequence, though, then perhaps we ought to consider how these powers can be translated into the new rules. That "inconvenience" can have an impact, especially late in the game when a character can no longer draw a card in time to have any effect on the outcome (where before they could).
Not my house, not my rules, so I've had my say and I'll go with the final decision.
If I'm looking at the spreadsheet correctly, aside from the recovery pile issue (which I'm assuming is settled as not happening unless I see otherwise), the only issues we're left with are:
- The characters for which additional proficiencies are being suggested
- CD Cogsnap Bloodbomber and the question about incorporating the "freely" verbiage
Are there any of the suggested proficiencies that we should not add? I'll remove those.
CD Cogsnap Bloodbomber's original power reads:
"□ The first item (□or any item) you play that has the Alchemical or Liquid trait does not count against the number of items you can play on a check or step."
I think that the incorporation of "freely" would look something like:
"□ You may play the first (□or any) Alchemical or Liquid item freely on a check or step." (or something like that, I'm sure we can tighten that up a bit if that's the direction we take).
Brother Tyler, could you link the spreadsheet again for new comers. I like having it in the last 10 or so post so its easy to find.
Chief Technical Officer
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10. CD Mother Myrtle 4
Conversion guide doesn't use template of providing timing first. Other legacy powers have been adjusted to that template wherever possible. Adjusting this one would result in:Quote:
For your Arcane (□ or Divine) check, you may use your Wisdom (□ +1d4).
(Alternate suggestion is to use "When you attempt an Arcane check..." based on the logic that "For your Arcane check..." wording precludes use in combat checks, but that seems faulty.)This one is marked for the developers, but only because the Conversion Guide provided wording. In all other respects, it's a basic change.
Her power currently says "You may use your Wisdom skill for your Arcane (□ or Divine) check." This is not a power that determines the skill you're using for a check—it's simply saying that whenever you're attempting an Arcane (or Divine) check, you can use your Wisdom skill instead of 1d4. Changing it to "For your Arcane (□or Divine) check" would therefore be incorrect.
The published wording allows her to play (for example) Fiery Glare ("For your combat check, banish to use Arcane + 2d4 or Divine + 2d4"), then use this power to use her Wisdom skill instead of Arcane or Divine. The proposed rewording would make her choose one or the other.
This is a case where we can't put timing first without severe linguistic gymnastics, so it should be left as originally written.
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I've updated it with all of the current information *except I haven't removed the "or recovery pile" bits yet* (I expect to, but I'm holding out just in case we get a last minute reprieve from the governor).
Thanks for the patience. Reviewing the matter in team shortly. :)
Heya, folks; I could use your help, please and thank you.
I'm considering an option for WotR Seoni that would let her pull spells out of the recovery pile, but only Arcane Attack spells. This would prevent her from "spamming scrolls" in a way that is inconsistent with her character concept, but still give her the sorcerer blasty choices that do fit the character.
My question is: what dangerous Arcane Attack spells shouldn't she be able to swap into? As counter-examples, Charm Person and Restore Mythic Power aren't Attack spells, so this theoretical Seoni couldn't play either 9+ times in one turn.
Thanks!
Thanks for looking into this!
Off the top of my head, there are Attack spells that can provide another explore (Fiery Glare, Bewilder) or can auto-acquire boons (Swipe, Dominate). Those 4 examples do each require an encounter, but I don't know whether or not that condition is enough of a limitation to prevent some kind of abuse? (Also I'm not familiar enough with the class/ultimate decks to know whether there's something worse out there.)
What criteria are there, either specific or general, that would render an Arcane Attack spell too dangerous for the power?
Consistently able to generate card draws or explores would be solid examples. I'd also include anything that had a "mastered element" or "Corrupted" on the list, cause of her roles.
Does Dominate count? It only works on monsters, but it searches for a boon in the location deck each time it's cast.
There are no Corrupted Attacked spells.
It appears that an incorrect usage slipped by me. Let me know if you have more.
Another example of the usage of the "Non-story bane" template (which has been deemed incorrect) can be found on the Glade Curse of the Crimson Throne location.
When you encounter a non-story bane, you may summon and encounter the danger. If you defeat it, banish the encountered bane; otherwise, evade it.
Brother Tyler,
My shared copy of the Legacy Character conversion shows Feiya's Beast-Bonder role as having a power worded differently from the Conversion guide.
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□ On your turn, you may reload a cohort (□ or an Arcane, Animal, or Vermin ally) to examine the top card of your location. (□ Then you may discard a card to explore your location.)
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▢ On your turn, you may mark a displayed Witch Class Deck cohort (▢ or reload an Animal, Arcane, or Vermin ally) to examine the top card of your location. (▢ Then you may discard a card to explore your location.)
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But I feel like they both should read:
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▢ On your turn, you may mark an unmarked displayed Witch Class Deck cohort (▢ or reload an Animal, Arcane, or Vermin ally) to examine the top card of your location. (▢ Then you may discard a card to explore your location.)
As you can see, without the new wording she could examine between every exploration by placing a mark on an already marked Cohort. They all get removed at the end of turn anyway.
I've been seriously slacking on this (font issues, should be resolved soon).
I'll look into the Feiya issue. If the wording differs from the conversion guide, but it isn't marked as a suggested change, I suspect that the wording on the conversion guide has been changed or added to (this role wasn't covered in older versions of the conversion guide). Either way, changing from the wording on the conversion guide to something else is a decision that must be deferred to the developers.
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Just asking if these Are somewhere in character sheet format, or is that something for later part of this project?
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I'm working on the sheets now. The thing that put this on hold was the font (I wanted to use the right one). I sucked it up and bought the font, so now it's time to roll up the sleeves and get the sheets done.
Tremendous thx for the job done Brother Tyler. Let us know when/where we can get those.
My apologies for the hiatus. Two things contributed to the delay. First was the lack of the right font. My original version of the sheets used the Calibri font, which looks okay, but it's not the right font. When we were told of the correct font, I knew that I needed that font to make these look as much like the real deal as possible. I balked at the price, however (over $250 for the full package, if I recall correctly - my wife would kill me). Also, my priorities had to shift over to a few (non-PACG) things entirely. Those have leveled off to the point where I can return my attentions to PACG (among them, the school year has ended and I'm no longer homeschooling my kids - whew!). I purchased one of the fonts to use on the sheets. I don't think it was the exact same one that Paizo/Lone Shark used, but it's pretty close. The only issue is that the license to use the font doesn't allow me to distribute the font, so the finished sheets will be provided as pdfs without the font embedded (I'll make them images so that your pdf viewer doesn't substitute other fonts). Also, the template character sheets that I'll make available (for players to use in creating sheets for their homegrown characters) will probably use the Calibri font so that I don't violate the font license.
I've been plugging away on the sheets. Other things pulled me away from this project for awhile, but it looks like I'll be able to focus on this so we should see fairly rapid progress (fingers crossed).
My current plan is to work on this with the class/character decks first, then the adventure paths - all in the order that they were first released by Paizo/Lone Shark. So the Bard CD was first, followed by the Cleric CD (both ready for review). Once I get through all of the decks, I'll tackle the APs, starting with Rise of the Runelords. Each deck/AP will be released as a separate file. At this point I *think* that I'll just post them on the Board Game Geek, but we're still working out the exact methodology.
Right now the Bard CD is being reviewed for both correct information and recommendations on format/additional content (disclaimers at the bottom, etc.). This is a community effort, but I want to be sure that it adheres to Paizo's/Lone Shark's requirements. Once I get review feedback in terms of format/content, I can adjust the template and continue with the other files. I expect to slog through these at a decent pace (at least a deck a day, hopefully more).
I don't trust myself to not make mistakes, so I'm building up a reviewer cadre to double check my work and find all of the mistakes I make so that I can correct them before the files are made available. I'll make each file available as it is finished, however, rather than making them all available en masse. If anyone is interested in being a reviewer, please send me a private message with your email address.
That's what my post above was about - I'm in the process of creating character sheets based on the spreadsheet.
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I made a few updates to the spreadsheet (marking the Bard CD, Cleric CD, and two Fighter CD characters as "preliminary" with the green fill color).
>>>Pictures!!!<<<
More importantly, if you scroll down, you'll see preview versions of what the Bard CD sheets might look like. I did my best to come as close in appearance to the official sheets as possible, though I'm working in Microsoft Word so there are some small differences. It occurred to me after I finished the Bard CD sheets that it would be prudent to get approval from Paizo/Lone Shark on everything (especially the portraits) before moving forward. It will be far easier to fix the template and a few sheets than it will be to fix every sheet. Yes, that preview is deliberately too small to use. Once I get the green light from Paizo/Lone Shark, I'll churn these things out as quickly as possible. I originally put the sheet images at the bottom of the page, but Google.Docs moved them up so that they now appear at a random spot on the spreadsheet (one image showing all four sheets, so you'll know when you find it). Don't get me started on my experience with Google.Docs this morning - apparently I offended it so it's making life difficult for me today.
In the meantime, I'm going through the discussion to make sure that I implement all of the changes that we've been given guidance on. You can still see a few characters in red. I think that most of those have to do with the recovery pile issue, which Vic/Mike gave official guidance on and which I need to implement.
I very much apologize, I feel kind of like an arse for my comment now...
There's nothing to apologize for. If anything, I should be apologizing to you and everyone else for taking so long to get the sheets done.
You did bring up one very good idea which I hadn't considered before: Drive Thru Cards
Honestly, I don't know if we're allowed to do that, but if we are, I'll make it happen. I'm going to get the pdf character sheets done first because those are much more accessible and will be free, whereas cards from DTC might be an expensive proposition. If we can do it, though, I'll gladly make it happen for those that are willing/able to fork out the money for cards.
As for the sheets, they're not too difficult to do. The only real cost is time, especially because I don't want to rush out a sub-optimal product.
Okay, I've gone through the spreadsheet and the discussion and it looks like only a few unresolved issues remain:
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- Skull & Shackles Bikendi Otongu - Should he have the Arcane skill?
- Skull & Shackles Damiel (base character, both roles) - Should he have the Alchemical skill?
Core Conversion Guide changes wording of last power to:
□ The first (□ or any) Alchemical or Liquid item you play does not count against the number of items you can play on a check or step.
Recommendation is to change the wording to:
□ The first (□ or any) Alchemical or Liquid item you play may be played freely.
Core Conversion Guide changes wording of third power to:
□ On your turn, you may mark a displayed Witch Class Deck cohort (□ or reload an Animal, Arcane, or Vermin ally) to examine the top card of your location. (□ Then you may discard a card to explore your location.)
Concern is that wording allows the player to mark an already-marked cohort for multiple examinations per turn. Original wording required Feiya to reload a cohort for this effect, limiting examinations to the number of cohorts in her hand. Recommendation is to change wording to:
□ On your turn, you may mark an unmarked displayed Witch Class Deck cohort (□ or reload an Animal, Arcane, or Vermin ally) to examine the top card of your location. (□ Then you may discard a card to explore your location.)
This is the only character that might remain unresolved from the Recovery Pile issue.
I'm considering an option for WotR Seoni that would let her pull spells out of the recovery pile, but only Arcane Attack spells. This would prevent her from "spamming scrolls" in a way that is inconsistent with her character concept, but still give her the sorcerer blasty choices that do fit the character.
My question is: what dangerous Arcane Attack spells shouldn't she be able to swap into? As counter-examples, Charm Person and Restore Mythic Power aren't Attack spells, so this theoretical Seoni couldn't play either 9+ times in one turn.
I didn't see any follow up to this. If it didn't go any further, then the spreadsheet is fine as-is (i.e., the recovery pile is not included).
Note that I haven't updated the online version of the spreadsheet yet (didn't want to re-live yesterday's shenanigans), but I figured it would be worthwhile to post the unresolved issues here for discussion. At this point, I think that we're just looking for developer input on these issues. In the meantime, I'll fix the online version of the spreadsheet.
Thanks a lot for all the work.
IMHO the proposed power:
"□ The first (□ or any) Alchemical or Liquid item you play may be played freely."
Needs a bit of rewording:
"The first" is unclear (first one during the scenario? turn? exploration? check? step?)
So similar to the FAQ/errata for WotR Seoni, the power for Alchemist CD Cogsnap Blood-Bomber role should be changed to something like:
□ The first (□ or any) Alchemical or Liquid item you play on a check or step may be played freely.
Is that correct?
Also, the online version of the spreadsheet has been updated.
Seems cool
I'm just waiting on some guidance on the sheets to make sure we're okay in terms of the CUP.
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Paizo's Community Use Policy
Is the legacy characters core conversion legal to use for PACS? Enquiring mimes would like to know if the conversion spreadsheet verbage can be used for characters playing PACS on Tabletop Simulator. Thanks!
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Is the legacy characters core conversion legal to use for PACS? Enquiring mimes would like to know if the conversion spreadsheet verbage can be used for characters playing PACS on Tabletop Simulator. Thanks!
Many of the ones on that sheet are pretty well set in stone, since they're just rewordings based on FAQs and the conversion document. The ones that aren't 100% figured out, we'd probably still want to hold off on.
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It has taken me much longer to get these sheets done than I'd hoped, but I'm *almost* there. Instead of releasing them in a trickle (which is what I think I promised earlier), I decided to release them all at once, so I have to slog through the whole pile before anyone sees anything resembling progress.
My main concern was the portraits, but a response from Vic Wertz in the Community Use forum said that cropping is fine, so I think we're in the clear.
The sheets look as close to the official ones as I can get, though the formatting is a bit wider and I've incorporated the disclaimers required by the CUP (which should address concerns about trying to pass these off as official).
The only sheets I have to be careful with are those for which the character image or the deck logo are not in the CUP. For those characters, there will be a silhouette in place of the actual image. For the logos, there will be a plain text logo.
I've made some adjustments based on feedback, and seeing the card for Thargrap (who I've added to the Summoner deck) made me realize that I'd goofed on the cohort cell (somehow I missed the example of Varrian's card). So I've adjusted my template (which adds some steps in creating the sheets, but ensures standardization for the future.
There are still some issues that I think are unresolved. I'm making the sheets for those characters, but the unresolved issues will be highlighted. I'll also list them all here. If/when those issues are resolved, the sheets will be updated with the final versions.
Once I get all of the sheets finished (this is my priority effort right now, except when my wife tells me that I have other priorities ;) ), I'll upload them to the BGG and will provide an index here and in the Community Use index. For those with unresolved issues, the issues will be identified at the BGG.
I don't have any authority to answer on behalf of the PACS, so I'll defer that answer to the powers that be.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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As far as the online PACS region, we will likely have to do a quick lookover of all the sheets. Any that change the meaning of a power will have to be designated as not legal to use until we get developer confirmation that they don't change the function. I'm hoping that's a very small number, and that we can then get them dealt with quickly.