Kitty unchained rogue advice wanted


Advice


So, like the title says. Got a cat obsessed catfolk vanilla rogue player. Going to let them switch to unchained, because she is already way behind the rest of the party. So since I am letting her change things up, help me make up the catlike build thats worthwhile. Currently lvl 6.

Things I am looking at - scout archtype, claw racial trait, claw blades, any sort of pounce attack. That scout charge is a must have.

What do you have for me?


Does she have a body pillow? Maybe a katana? She could be better off playing a kitsune depending on her level of weebery.

Catlike builds? Too bad you're stuck with unchained rogue, because a slayer would be nice... If you want catlike abilities, there are some feats that come to mind. Spring Attack, Wind/Lightning Stance, Improved Trip, . It depends on what she wants to specialize in. I built a slayer once that could do crazy damage through sniping, and jumped around on rooftops. There's lots of opportunity for versatility.

My advice for playing rogues is generally "don't play rogues". Rogues suck.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Rogue is literally the worst class for an inexperienced player. There's just so many things wrong with it!
For instance, there's a feat for pounce with claws... that a Rogue can't take prior to 14th level.

My suggestion would be to suggest a polymorph build, i.e. the character turning into an actual cat (probably a big cat like lion or tiger). Is such a build on the table?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I'll send you a PM that isn't an unhelpful "don't play one."


Charging rogues are terribly fragile. I'd suggest either the amateur swashbuckler (dodging panache) feat, or even a level dip in swashbuckler to give her a chance of surviving regular use of this tactic.

Hellcat stealth is another feat which she may like, all things considered.


So, you are thinking in terms of Scout, highly mobile, I like the idea of taking Panther and Snake Style Feats. Panther Style Feats give you Free Action Attacks whenever you Provoke Attacks of Opportunity by moving out of Threatened Squares. Snake Fang gives you an Unarmed Attack of Opportunity whenever you are attacked and missed. Panther and Snake Style stack, Combat Reflexes gives you bonus attacks based on your Dex, Panther Claw based on your Wisdom.

Take Dodge and Mobility, giving yourself an extra +5 AC. Since you already need those, you might as well also take Mobility and Spring Attack.

When you are getting attacks with a game mechanic like this, I'd actually recommend you use a proper weapon. Ascetic Style would let you apply Panther and Snake Style to any Monk weapon like a Temple Sword, which is a Tripping Weapon, and you have good reason to take Combat Expertise, anyway. But now, we are talking about 3 style Feats. Using 2 style feats at once only requires a 1 level dip into Monk, Master of Many Styles. Using 3 at once requires 6 levels, so maybe not, maybe Claws or Claw Blades are the way to go.


With judicious use of Ninja Trick (and a favorable ruling or two as GM), you can get some kitty-style powers and maybe some utility.

* Wall Climber gives you a 20' climb speed. Very kitty.

* Vanishing Trick allows you to cast Invisibility at the cost of a Ki point (and allows you to get Invisible Blade/Greater Invisibility at level 10 with a favorable GM ruling).

* Ki Pool is a Chained Rogue talent that the developers "overlooked" when they made the Unchained Rogue. It gives a Ki pool (equal to Wis mod) to fuel talents like Vanishing Trick, if your GM rules that you can take it.

Also, I think someone made up an Unchained Ninja conversion if you need to go a little more towards the Catgirl side of Catfolk.


Having your throat slit by a catgirl is up there on the "most embarrassing ways to die" list.


Level 8 is where the scout build starts to shine:

At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

Couple of options:
1.dodge, mobility, spring attack + sneak attack. Hit and run. Unless they can pounce you are denying them full attacks on your PC
2. This could work for a range build too (I think) move ten feet and your attack gets sneak attack.


Spring attack is not an attack action, it's a full-round action. That doesn't work.


TheGreatWot wrote:
Spring attack is not an attack action, it's a full-round action. That doesn't work.

Ah.. just like vital strike.


As if rogues needed to be any worse...


It's not rogues, it's spring attack that's the problem there. The fear of someone (PC or NPC) being able to fight without risk has kept writers & developers from making good options compatible with spring attack.


You can get a somewhat workable Spring Attack build out of the Warrior Poet Samurai, though that's a very different thread.

As a note: Vital Strike IS an attack action, and does work with the Scout's 8th level ability. It just sucks because you're a 3/4 BAB class so your Vital Strike progression is delayed.


Gaming Ranger wrote:
TheGreatWot wrote:
Spring attack is not an attack action, it's a full-round action. That doesn't work.
Ah.. just like vital strike.

It doesn't not work.

Sure you can't Pounce and Spring Attack in the same Round, but that doesn't mean you should never take both. I mean just because that won't work on the same Round, it should still work for the same character. Sometimes you would want to do one or the other.

Meanwhile, Spring Attack should work just fine with Panther Claw, Panther Parry, and Snake Fang. The bonus attacks from them are Free Actions, Swift Actions, and Attacks of Opportunity.


Kitty Catoblepas wrote:

With judicious use of Ninja Trick (and a favorable ruling or two as GM), you can get some kitty-style powers and maybe some utility.

* Wall Climber gives you a 20' climb speed. Very kitty.

* Vanishing Trick allows you to cast Invisibility at the cost of a Ki point (and allows you to get Invisible Blade/Greater Invisibility at level 10 with a favorable GM ruling).

* Ki Pool is a Chained Rogue talent that the developers "overlooked" when they made the Unchained Rogue. It gives a Ki pool (equal to Wis mod) to fuel talents like Vanishing Trick, if your GM rules that you can take it.

Also, I think someone made up an Unchained Ninja conversion if you need to go a little more towards the Catgirl side of Catfolk.

I love the Ninja Vanishing Trick. I was thinking of using NVT for a sniper who would Vanish to find a spider hole, then use False Attacker to maintain stealth. I would dip a level in Arcanist and use a Wand of Scorching Ray or Cantrips to make Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC to lock in Sneak Attack Damage. Just try saying that out loud with out breaking into your villain-laugh!


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Just try saying that out loud with out breaking into your villain-laugh!

Try saying what out loud? "You make a single attack per round that deals 1d6 per two levels you have"? Well, it gets better with Scorching Ray, now you only need 4 rounds at 6th level to kill a CR6 enemy, instead of 5!

Arachnofiend wrote:
As a note: Vital Strike IS an attack action, and does work with the Scout's 8th level ability.

To be precise, both are conditional abilities that trigger on using the attack action.

avr wrote:
It's not rogues, it's spring attack that's the problem there. The fear of someone (PC or NPC) being able to fight without risk has kept writers & developers from making good options compatible with spring attack.

But think of it this way: Would it be a good thing to tempt Rogues into making a single attack per round to guarantee sneak attack? It doesn't exactly help them not be total crap (or, as the OP said, "way behind the rest of the party").


Derklord wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Just try saying that out loud with out breaking into your villain-laugh!
Try saying what out loud? "You make a single attack per round that deals 1d6 per two levels you have"? [smaller]Well, it gets better with Scorching Ray, now you only need 4 rounds at 6th level to kill a CR6 enemy, instead of 5![/smaller

I heard it!


TheGreatWot wrote:
As if rogues needed to be any worse...

We get it.


My recommendations would be to take the racial traits Cat's Claws and Climber. Having a climb speed as a rogue makes climbing less risky and generally more attractive. The +8 on a str based skill helps a lot too. Claws for obvious reasons.

I'm not going to recommend an archetype. The Cat Burglar gets a very powerful ability to take 10 on stealth rolls, but gives up an equally powerful ability to avoid damage. Stealth rolls can be important, not dying to fireballs is better in my opinion.

The whole Scout charge thing...encourages inexperienced rogues to try charging opponents and being the only target for all of the monster's attacks. Lets not try to get the rogue killed. Encourage the party to work with the rogue to get flanking.

Encourage the Rogue to sink points into Charisma and UMD. With a racial bonus to charisma, it shouldn't be a dump stat. 2 stat points get a respectable 14. Instead of sinking 3 more points into Cha to get to 16 I'd recommend 3 points into Int or a different stat. 14 is very comfortable for a non-face character to have. If the kitty wants to be the party face, then go for a 16 cha.

Eventually give the kitty some items to help him be more effective. Like an opportunity to befriend a powerful Druid who could be convinced to cast a high level Greater Magic Fang which could be combined with Permanency to make the Rogue's claw attacks respectable compared with magic items. Permanency could come from a sorcerer/wizard, or UMD from a scroll...actually it would be cheaper just to hire someone to cast Permanency.

Consider leaving a wand of greater polymorph with a few charges lying around. And maybe some items to improve or give natural attacks (like a Helm of the Mammoth Lords, or Pelt of the Beast). Just make sure the player knows that only one type of natural attack gets full BAB and the rest are secondary natural attacks.

And if you want to be way too nice, let the rogue use Rogue's Finesse on "natural attacks" instead of "Claws". It should be one type of natural attack, but...


Meirril wrote:
My recommendations would be to take the racial traits Cat's Claws and Climber. Having a climb speed as a rogue makes climbing less risky and generally more attractive.

I love that.

Meirril wrote:
Encourage the Rogue to sink points into Charisma and UMD.

I think Use Magical Device is a deep Skill Point sink. Rather than do that, I'd just dip a level in Arcanist, then you can actually cast a few spells, use any Sorcerer or Wizard Wand with no chance of failure, and you can take some of those Arcane Exploits like Dimensional Slide which can help you get Flanking, and there is a shadow-thing Exploit that gives you a Miss Chance.

Meirril wrote:
And maybe some items to improve or give natural attacks (like a Helm of the Mammoth Lords, or Pelt of the Beast).

I love natural attack builds, but the OP wants to be highly mobile on the battlefield, and having multiple natural attacks is really only good for taking the Full Round, Full Attack Action. Multiple natural attacks would not work with Claw Pounce, only the Claws get that, and anyway, you are advising against a Charging Rogue build. To really exploit a Sneak Attack, Natural Attack Build, the OP would need another way to lock in Sneak Attack Damage. Maybe take Quick and Greater dirty trick to Blind Opponents. Dimensional Slide would help. Dip a couple of levels in Snakebite Striker Brawler and take Improved Feint, or some combination, of 1 or 2 of those things.

To your list I would add the Ring of Ratfangs which grants a Bite Attack, and the Tentacle Cloak which grants a Tentacle Attack. If the OP dipped a level in White Haired Witch, his Catgirl would gain a Hair Attack.

Meirril wrote:
Just make sure the player knows that only one type of natural attack gets full BAB and the rest are secondary natural attacks.

Nuh-UHH! When you combine primary natural attacks, they're still primary natural attacks. Primary Natural Attacks are only demoted to secondary when you combine them with your regular attacks. If you have only 1 Natural Attack that Attack enjoys additional Benefits: it becomes Primary even if it would otherwise be Secondary (a Stegosaurus's Tail Attack is a Primary Natural Attack), and you get to add +1.5 X St Mod to Damage instead of just ST Mod Damage like normal. If the Catgirl gets a Bite in addition to the Claws, then she loses the +1.5X St Mod for the Claws, but they're still Primary Natural Attacks.

Grand Lodge

Canny tumble and Circling mongoose could be great, but if you miss once the sekvens stops.
On a slayer build they are much more likely to succeed.

Lunge and enlarge person/long arm spell will give you 15 ft. reach with natural attacks, which will make fullattacks easier and prevent getting fullattacked in return.

Vivisectionist Alchemist can turn into a catlike creature with feral mutagen and sneak attack just as well as a rogue.


Cats are lucky. In the thread Lucky to the Max I posted the following:

5000 Charm of Fate
3750 Four-leaf Clover
2400 Charm of the Thriceborn
3000 Fortunate Charm
20000 Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone)
7700 Headband of Fortune's Favor
9000 Three Reasons to Live
6400 Dragonbone Divination Sticks

Also note this spell:
Lucky Number

/cevah

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Kitty unchained rogue advice wanted All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.