Trying to make artillery team work


Advice


I am going to be starting a long campaign with a friend and we were playing around with the idea of a goblin artillery team. We both will take artillery team level one and carry a large heavy crossbow. He is going to be firing where as I am the reloaded. I need help with class and skill optimization to pump out the biggest single target damage possible. We were going for sniper and observer. Thank you for your ideas!


Anything with dex to damage. Gunslinger, unchained rogue, agile weapon enchantment... etc.

When you reach a high enough level, you can take the Rapid Reload feat. That'll reduce the reload time, and eventually, when one of you gets Crossbow Mastery, you won't need a second person to reload it at all.


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DEX to damage with a siege weapon? I didn't think that was a thing.

Also AFAIK there are no rules allowing the use of a bow or crossbow that is sized bigger than the characters using it. I would treat a large heavy crossbow as a light balista as far as reloading and crew requirements.


I guess bolt ace gunslinger on the person firing the crossbow could get dex to damage with a crossbow, even a really big one. UnRogue or agile is melee only IIRC.

The obvious problem is that the person doing the reloading isn't going to be doing much else. This seems boring and a waste of a player character. Still... a grenadier alchemist could infuse the ammo with alchemical items for a little extra punch, or if you get rapid reload ASAP you could cast spells with your standard action each round. You wouldn't have hands free to wield another weapon of course.


Wheldrake wrote:

DEX to damage with a siege weapon? I didn't think that was a thing.

Also AFAIK there are no rules allowing the use of a bow or crossbow that is sized bigger than the characters using it. I would treat a large heavy crossbow as a light balista as far as reloading and crew requirements.

A ballista, in terms of game mechanics, is essentially an oversized crossbow.

For a first level team, I envision that eventually both characters would start being able to take Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery which would lead to both crossbowmen being able to reload heavy crossbows as Free Actions.

Regarding Goblins, though, are you sure that Crossbow is the way to go? There is a Goblin Feat called Goblin Gunslinger that allows Goblins to use Firearms that are a size bigger than normal. A combination of Rapid Reload and Alchemal Cartriges or an advance Firearm like a Revolver would let both Goblins fire and reload guns as fast as they could arrows, only the guns make Ranged Touch Attacks.

If you really want a Goblin Artillery Team, why not go with firearms, or better yet, cannons?!

My notions of Goblin gunners would be to make them Grenadier Alchemists that shoot exploding bullets as Ranged Touch Attacks.


Wheldrake wrote:
Also AFAIK there are no rules allowing the use of a bow or crossbow that is sized bigger than the characters using it.

THE CLUE IS IN THE NAME.

I like avr's idea of having the re-loader be a Grenadier Alchemist.

Scott Wilhelm's idea of going with firearms sounds good as the Artillery Team feat works with Muskets. Artillery Team doesn't allow you to share initiative, so you won't be able to make multiple attacks per round unless you want to give up on that. Muskets make a good choice for Vital Strike (Large Musket = 3d6 damage), so that could be a good way to go. Or even just making the shooter another alchemist and taking EXPLOSIVE MISSILE.

Sovereign Court

Explosive Missile reloads the weapon, so kind of defeats the purpose a little bit. And you can't use Explosive Missile with a Musket regardless.


Firebug wrote:
Explosive Missile reloads the weapon, so kind of defeats the purpose a little bit. And you can't use Explosive Missile with a Musket regardless.

So it does ... that would make it better if it didn't make the whole premise redundant =P

I always forget that Explosive missile doesn't work for 2-handed firearms. You could get a CONDUCTIVE weapon instead. Or you could just make that character a full-BAB class to maximize Vital Strike.


If you're going with a firearm. consider Gunchemist for hte reloader.
They can infuse their loaded round for another.

Gunchemist reloads. gunslinger fires. Best of both worlds. Gunchemist also provides buffs, and other set up situations. give them a true strike dose via a poison glove. Could potentially snag a towe shiedl with mobile bulwark and truly become a mobile artilary pilbox. Gunslinger gets dex to damage. full bab. Vital strike combies. Bullseye aim. or more likel gunslinger 5. then Figher, or slayer.

this way the gunslinger can still load relatively well without the gunchemist if need be. The gunchemist can also use the weapon if need be.
while maximizing the attack.


Zwordsman wrote:

If you're going with a firearm. consider Gunchemist for hte reloader.

They can infuse their loaded round for another.

Gunchemist reloads. gunslinger fires. Best of both worlds. Gunchemist also provides buffs, and other set up situations. give them a true strike dose via a poison glove. Could potentially snag a towe shiedl with mobile bulwark and truly become a mobile artilary pilbox. Gunslinger gets dex to damage. full bab. Vital strike combies. Bullseye aim. or more likel gunslinger 5. then Figher, or slayer.

this way the gunslinger can still load relatively well without the gunchemist if need be. The gunchemist can also use the weapon if need be.
while maximizing the attack.

Gun chemist alchemist as a loader and gunslinger as the firer doesn't work well. Anyone other than a gun chemist firing the weapon adds 4 to the misfire value. A tower shield is almost completely incompatible with artillery team, you need both hands either to load or fire the weapon. The exception I guess would be with rapid reload and a folding shield, but that would still take up the action rapid reload frees up and only give you a tower shield one round out of every two.


MrCharisma wrote:
Firebug wrote:
Explosive Missile reloads the weapon, so kind of defeats the purpose a little bit. And you can't use Explosive Missile with a Musket regardless.

So it does ... that would make it better if it didn't make the whole premise redundant =P

I always forget that Explosive missile doesn't work for 2-handed firearms. You could get a CONDUCTIVE weapon instead. Or you could just make that character a full-BAB class to maximize Vital Strike.

What I had forgotten is that Explosive Missile helps with reloading, too. That makes it awesomer than I remembered. That means you don't even need to take Rapid Reload. You can just shoot an exploding bullet every round: what's not to like?

The fact that it doesn't work with 2 handed firearms is a shame, but even with 1 handed firearms it's still awesome. It means you get to make Ranged Touch Attacks that do Bomb Damage, and stack with things like Deadly Aim. Grenadier lets you put an Alchemal Weapon into your bullet as a Move Actionlike a vial of Alchemist Fire. So then, take Burn! Burn! Burn! and do an extra 1d4.

Explosive Missile probably would not work with Vital Strike: Vital Strike only works with the Attack Action. Explosive Missile is a Standard Action where you load, imbue, and shoot your weapon, and technically, those are not the same thing. Vital Strike would work with Arrows and Alchemal Weapon + a Wand of Gravity Bow. Gravity Bow does not work with bullets, sadly.

You know what else would work? Enlarge Person. Enlarged bullets would shrink back down after fired. Mark Seifter figured out a way around this problem by carrying size large arrows around, putting his arrows (in this case bullets) down Enlarging, and then picking them up and shooting. With Goblin Gunslinger, you can use Size Medium guns, a 1 handed musket pistol does 1d8. Enlarge, then you do 2d6. Attach a Vial of Alchemist Fire using the Grenadier Alchemal Weapon, and do 3d6. Use Vital Strike, and do 6d6. Take Burn! Burn! Burn! and do 6d6+1d4. A complaint about using Enlarge Person in this way is that you take a -1 Size Penalty to Attack Rolls due to Size and an addition al -1 because you take -2 to your Dex, but this is more than offset by the fact that Guns make Ranged Touch Attacks. Since you wouldn't be using Explosive Missile with Vital Strike, now you would have a reason to take Rapid Reload and work as an Artillery Team.

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