Red Mantis on the High Seas in Lost Omens World Guide?

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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

Just so I can say "I called it," let me put down my marker: the Lost Omens World Guide archetype for the High Seas will be the Red Mantis Assassin. You might think it would be Pirate, but you'd be wrong! Here's my theory:

(1) The world guide archetypes we've seen (Pathfinder Agent, Aldori Duelist, Student of Perfection, Hellknight Armiger) are all quite vivid and distinctively Golarion, designed to bring the world to life. Generic "Pirate" doesn't do the job.

(2) We know we aren't getting Cavalier at launch, and that's like the Pirate in being rather flavor-light/generic.

(3) I seem to recall several comments from designers in the past (Jason? Mark?) suggesting that Pirate and Cavalier were included in the Playtest as proof-of-concept: both to test the generic archetype idea and, in the case of Cavalier, to test how players would react to seeing a full class reduced to such an archetype. (I believe there was one interview where someone asked "why Pirate, anyway?', and Jason said it just happened to be the first thing that came to mind when they thought about generic archetypes.)

(4) We know the first 2 APs, and neither seems like a great fit for pirates.

(5) In the UK Games Expo interview, right around here, Jason is talking about the design space enabled by the archetype structure. He says "and what that will allow us to do in the future is, as we do new archetypes, let's say we do an archetype that makes you a pirate ..." He then gives the usual spiel on that one. But "in the future" and "new archetypes" isn't exactly cagey.

(6) Consider this paragraph from the High Seas page in the Core Rulebook (displayed later in the same interview). Note in particular the last sentence:

Core Rulebook wrote:
Piracy is one of the greatest dangers facing travel on the High Seas. The immense volcanic archipelago known as the Shackles serves as a haven for these pirates, with their Hurricane Queen providing just enough structure to keep them from going at each other's throats. A great diversity of monsters and threats populate these islands, and the local pirates know which are safe and which to avoid. North of the Shackles lies Mediogalti Island. While its only significant port, Ilizmagorti, is a known safe harbor for pirates, it is the presence of the infamous Red Mantis assassins who rule the isle that gives this region its greatest infamy.

So we have a paragraph go specifically from "ooh pirates" to but it's the Red Mantis assassins who are the big deal.

(7) Checking the Core Rulebook images for the other World Guide archetypes we know about, the Pathfinder Society is prominently featured on the Absalom page and the last paragraph of the Impossible Lands page is all about the pursuit of perfection in Jalmeray. Unfortunately I can't make out the Brevoy paragraph on the Broken Lands page to see if the Aldori swordlords get much focus, which would help with this kind of evidence.


So maybe I'm wrong! But if you put all that together I think there's a good chance we're getting Red Mantis assassins as the High Seas archetype in the Lost Omens World Guide.

The one drawback: evil assassin cult is much more of an enemy thing than an option for PCs (assuming a normal fantasy heroic campaign), so I could definitely see them being saved for a more enemy-focused book rather than a launch product (with, I'm assuming, the goal of launching the game with as many player options as possible). This is the one thing that really makes me hesitate.

We'll find out in 3 weeks when we get the Lost Omens blog about the High Seas! (They seem to be going alphabetically, which would give us the Eye of Dread and the Golden Road in the next 2 weeks.)

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

It would be really nice if you are right. One of my Kingmaker PCs was the granddaughter of Jakalyn and herself a Red Mantis (albeit a rogue one). I'm planning on running my homebrew Kingmaker 2 in PF2e and it would be awesome to have official Red Mantis rules for her.

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I really like The red mantis prestige class in pf1. I just wish(ed) it wasn’t evil restricted.

I’d be surprised if hellknight armiger didn’t require lawful. But while it’s possible they included a class that requires evil, getting one this early still seems unlikely to me - even if I want it.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

When did we learn about the Student of Perfection? I must have missed that reveal

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
3Doubloons wrote:
When did we learn about the Student of Perfection? I must have missed that reveal

Luis Loza revealed it on the Know Direction discord channel. Asked the folks in chat to vote on which region and several hours later Impossible Lands had the most votes. I posted about it in some random thread here, but tough to keep up with everything now that that index thread fell apart

tqomins wrote:

I wasn't sure which thread to drop this in, but, new archetype revealed on the Know Direction discord:


The archetype from the Impossible Lands region is...

The Student of Perfection!
"You studied martial arts at Jalmeray’s Houses of Perfection."

So Armiger is the one for Old Cheliax?

Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
ChibiNyan wrote:
So Armiger is the one for Old Cheliax?

We know Hellknight Armiger is in the book, and it seems a reasonable guess that it's Old Cheliax. In fact, I think Mark may have specifically confirmed that in the PaizoCon panel, lemme check ...

EDIT: yes, he starts talking about it here. He mentions 2 special features:

(1) it's an archetype that rolls into another archetype (full Hellknight, which I assume we'll have to get soonish, maybe WG2 with its 5 factions);

(2) access-entry (which we learned about later from Pathfinder Agent): "if you're from anywhere in the Old Cheliax region ..."

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You make some very good points, but i still feel it will be a free captains pirate archetype myself but then again i didnt even think about red mantis.

To be fair, there's no reason you couldn't use the playtest pirate and cavalier in PF2 anyway. We know the pirate will end up improved if it ever sees print by making some its feats into skill feats you can only take with the pirate dedication. Cavalier could stand to get some improvements as well (Challenge kind of stinks IMO and there's a lot of issues with the old lance and shield cavalier.) But the structure of the game hasn't changed enough to prevent someone from using those options as written.

Dark Archive

tqomins wrote:
So maybe I'm wrong! But if you put all that together I think there's a good chance we're getting Red Mantis assassins as the High Seas archetype in the Lost Omens World Guide.

I'd love to see Red Mantis in 2E. One of the reasons I didn't end up trying the playtest was that I couldn't find a way to get access to the sawtooth sabers.

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You are right!



Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I stand corrected and im so happy about it!

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