Help Me Take Down My Party


Advice


Shock and surprise, my Antipaladin has been a bit clashy with the rest of the party. Most big decisions come down to a long debate between me and another player, with the more combat-focused players kinda bored. We're coming up on the end of a campaign arc, and our GM wants us to pick between two factions. Fundamental characteristics have my character and the aforementioned player on opposing sides (Pikachu.shock.jpg).

I think this is a good opportunity to write my character out. Dramatic as I am, I want to betray the party, defeating them each in unique ways like I had their weaknesses on file. Thing is, I don't want to be a total dick, so I'm trying to not kill them. Any other recommendations (besides abstinence) to make this betrayal less annoying to the players is welcome.

Resources:

- It's a modern/post-apoc campaign, and tech level is basically equivalent to the '90s. Guns from here and standard Pathfinder equipment. $10:1gp
- My levels are 3 Antipaladin w/ Oath of the People's Council (paladin), 2 Thug Rogue, 2 Cavalier w/ Order of the Cockatrice, and 1 Battle Herald.
- Also definitely not PFS, so go nuts.
- I took Leadership a few levels ago, and never got around to building my followers. I've got a leadership score of 17 in regards to followers. That's thirty lvl 1, two lvl 2, one lvl 3, & one lvl 4.
- Dazzling Display as a standard action, and the Thug Rogue variant to cause Frightened condition.
- Blade of Mercy trait, so I can deal non-lethal for Enforcer/Hurtful.
- A bunch of teamwork and Charisma stuff which can't really be used on the party as enemies...
- My cohort does fat DPS as a grenade-launching rogue/alchemist, but it's all lethal. Haven't finished her level up to 7. She's got a feat, and two 2nd lvl extracts. Her discoveries are Infusions, and Precise Bomb.
- I also have access to a feat via lvl 9. Was gonna take lvl 2 of Battle Herald, but that hardly seems pertinent now that I'm abandoning my party.
- Allies in powerful places, probably more loyal to the party than to my character in particular.
- 40,000gp, and half-price magic items. Probably should have lead with that..

Frienemies:

We are level 9, with the gold rating of level 12-13. Each of us is well-optimized in our field. Maybe them more than me.

We have two DPS characters which can one-shot me no problem, so they need to go down first and fast. The first is a melee size queen with the Superstitious rage power tree. A proper big dumb barbarian, he is rocking 7s and an 8 in mental stats, so if we can get one of those to 0, that would be ideal. Also has a 10 touch AC somehow, so I was thinking a few lvl 1 followers with wands of Ghoul Touch, or something?

The other DPS is a shooter that uses True Strike to Rapid Fire (each 5 over target AC equals another bullet hit, approximately 30 damage ea). I have Deflect Arrows, but that's only one bullet. His weakness seems to be Fort & Will saves, and a mediocre AC. He likes to "overwatch" and do tactics and sh*t.

We also have a grappling brawler. He should be taken care of by Dazzling Display, but one bad roll and the DC increases. I think he only needs a full round to hog tie me. I'm worried about Martial Flexibility getting him out of anything. He's a lizard man luchadore, and is clearly the wild card.

Lastly, the psychic Investigator. He's not so useful in combat unless he lands a Mental Block. Between fat Antipaladin saves, and Rite of Centered Mind loaded up as a spell-like 1/day, I'm not hugely concerned. Still, a funny, and unique way to take him down would be cool. His character is group lawyer, with bland suits.


Before I even look at the spoilers; the AP code demands you betray them. You lose your powers if you don’t unless you justify it to furthering your goals.


Talk to your game master about it, he will know whether the other players would find fun in your proposal. What you describe feels like your character becoming an NPC but played like a PC for this session.

I've been on the receiving end of something similar once, it was nice because the game master and the player worked together and because we were grown ups.


Agénor wrote:

Talk to your game master about it, he will know whether the other players would find fun in your proposal. What you describe feels like your character becoming an NPC but played like a PC for this session.

I've been on the receiving end of something similar once, it was nice because the game master and the player worked together and because we were grown ups.

This, but also split the party in an in town non-combat situation to deal with them one at a time from surprise.


The GM has been allowing a little flexibility on code to keep from party infighting. A compromise here and there on how we do things is no consequence to my character's long-term goals of using the party to advance his position towards releasing his deity and bringing about the destruction of the corps which govern the world. Party is pro-corporation, and the last sessions of the arc are going to be about choosing a side on that matter. No more compromises.


Garretmander wrote:
Agénor wrote:

Talk to your game master about it, he will know whether the other players would find fun in your proposal. What you describe feels like your character becoming an NPC but played like a PC for this session.

I've been on the receiving end of something similar once, it was nice because the game master and the player worked together and because we were grown ups.

This, but also split the party in an in town non-combat situation to deal with them one at a time from surprise.

How did I not think to split the party? I'll coordinate with my GM to find a reason to do that.


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Give your followers scrolls of merciful magic missile. You have plenty enough liquid cash.


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Also create a disease, be the carrier. Slowly contaminate the party. Especially if they don’t know in character your a AP.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Just write your character out and move on. Tell the story of the party and your new character, rather than wasting time on a character that is just going away.


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Yeah betraying the party without anyone at the table's prior knowledge is a setup for hurt feelings unless you're playing that kind of game from the beginning. Also your GM should be in the loop, period. But even if they greenlight your plan that doesn't mean you're good to go, as GMs (myself included) have had historically bad judgement. You know your group better than us, but tread lightly. Real life friendships have been lost for less.


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Separating the party and taking them down one-on-one is probably tactically advisable. As an anti-paladin megalomaniac, maybe it suits you take them all out in a group just to prove you can. I don't know how much magic plays in campaign, but I will always go with the web / aqueous orb combo (from minions with wands) for slowing down everyone or multiple hits with ray of exhaustion (from minion wands) to lower Str and Dex by 6 (which is huge for melee and ranged). Even on a save they're fatigued and are down 2 Str and Dex and can't charge you, and you just hit them again to make them exhausted anyway.

Otherwise, I would recommend a gas mask, and then have your minions launch tear gas into the sealed room. While they can probably make a few saves, just keep avoiding them until they fail and get nauseated. During that time, also have your guys blasting them with pepper spray. It's a touch attack and if they fail, they're blinded. Either way, it makes them much easier prey. Otherwise, get thermal goggles and utilize smoke grenades (I don't see where tear gas hinders visibility itself). Thermal does ignore smoke, so you'll be ahead of the game there. That's just modern tactics there. Overwhelming amounts of little guys with debilitating attacks, even nets, tasers, and stuff.

If you want to be all sneaky, you could boobytrap web or glue grenades so they go off when the party tries to use them, tamper with their ammo clips. You could slip away and put on an eyepatch or fake goatee and pretend to be an evil twin just for the hell of it and come into the room with your minions just as they get locked in, then put on your gasmask. If you have a spot arranged, like a warehouse or something, you can always have a conveniently arranged sheet of bullet-resistant glass set up from behind which to make your villainous monologue. Otherwise, having the encounter in a steam room (not good for your thermal vision though) where you can have clouds of scalding steam blinding and searing them is dramatic. Otherwise a flooded basement or something with knee-deep water to slow them down while you move back and forth on a sectional catwalk. If one climbs onto it, you can toss a grenade or other explosive there to tear that section off and drop them back down (will have to leap over that gap if you still want to move back and forth, but that's just exciting is what that is).


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This is a dick move. I’d go as far as saying that playing an antipaladin in general is a dick move unless done very carefully.


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1. Wait until you are out on the road somewhere.
2. Volunteer for sentry duty.
3. Carefully and quietly place a piece of paper on each of your friends' clothing that includes an ornately drawn dagger and a note that says "I have given you your life. Don't waste it by seeking me out! Thank you all for the furthering my goals and for all the entertaining times."
4. Walk away and go about your business.


Choose the same faction as the other player. But secretly provide information to the other side.


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If it's a party of guys
Make your followers gals,
A brothel's their guise
To bring down your "pals".

They'll know it's a trap
When they enter town,
But a woman in the lap
Is hard to turn down.

When the men sleep
Just take all their things,
It's yours to keep
'Til you free higher beings.

Please keep in mind
When betraying your "friends",
They're all level nine
And not at their end.


I'm not generally a fan of bards, but that was pretty fabulous.


My last character I played from 1-20 was a AntiPaladin. Never had to betray the party other then 2 members and the rest of the group knew I would in character as one was a normal Paladin (I used my fiendish bond which was a T Rex then to get him unstuck from some flooring which he couldn’t move and instead of setting him down I had it launch him across the field at another enemy like a full plate cannon ball) the other I became a graveknight in game via the ritual and slayed the LG inquisitor after subjecting the town we raised up and used as a home base to my tyranny (I had vile leadership and a near maxed out profession skill and used my Mercenary company as the town police force). The other characters were evil or morally ambiguous at best and stayed out of my way and their goals mostly aligned with mine.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Cliche.

Betray the players' expectations by seeking out an atonement and re-specing your character as non-evil. They found they were conflicted between their urges and their genuine companionship with the party, and fixed the defect within themselves. Surprise!

Frankly if the evil-guy-in-the-party turned on any of my PCs, I'd be massively unimpressed. "Seriously, this is the depth of your role-play ability?" I probably wouldn't bother to participate in the session, to the point of allowing my own character death, because the player-compact was broken... that we're all playing together, not against one another. The occasional mental control/confusion aside, I'm not here to reward the guy who chose to play an antipaladin by giving them the PvP that was virtually inevitable.


Its more complicated then anti pvp though. Every table I’ve played at allows every alignment with the expectation that is a moral conflict happens cause the LG and CE characters disagree then a confrontation is expected for RP reasons. Not requiring full combat but confrontation.

I actually wouldn’t want to play with a table that disallowed PvP. If someone got that upset out of character over a fictional person They are pretending to be cause their team mate killed them at worst or screwed them over... then they have bigger issues.

That is just as bad to me as players that only are stats on paper and build only towards combat having zero worth in game in other areas. When I run games if you don’t have some social aspect or something to bring to the table out of combat your character isn’t going to reap the rewards of cooler gear. I reward role playing and story advancement not knowing how to mechanically dominate a fight.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
McDaygo wrote:
I actually wouldn’t want to play with a table that disallowed PvP.

There's PvP and there's friction. Two different things. I don't have a problem with friction at the table. The paladin trying to "redeem" the rogue... that's fine. The cleric of one deity trying to convert another, that's fine too. But "help me take down my party"? Not my cup of tea. That's adversarial.


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Step 1: Find a way to go back in time.

Step 2: Your character becomes the legal and biological father to all party members.

Step 3: Sell them each to a different circus.


While redemption is fun in real life, our game doesn't have the vibe where that is the cool thing to do. This group is all about overkill and a healthy rivalry of optimizers. Plus, I've played redemption in another group. That was cool, but what I haven't ever done is play the villain from within the party, and this is his apex. So thanks for the ethics lesson I didn't ask for, but I already made my decision, and abstinence is not an option.


I would guess that the other players are expecting you to betray them. Your character is, by necessity, a jerk. If they know anything about an antipaladin's code, they'll be prepared for you to backstab them and may even have plans to take you out before you can betray them.

Assuming that your fellow players are ok with this whole "betray the party" thing, and that your GM knows about it, I advise you to not only make your own plan to foil them, but find a way to protect yourself in the event of your plan backfiring or players getting rid of you first.

I still don't think that this is a good idea. :p


BlueCherryFizz wrote:
... and abstinence is not an option.

It wouldn't be for the party either.


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Quote:
Thing is, I don't want to be a total dick, so I'm trying to not kill them.
You're only going to be a partial-dick, and...frame them for goat-buggery and lèse-majesté? You're going to pull your punches when the fight that you start breaks out? I don't get it.
Quote:
Also has a 10 touch AC somehow, so I was thinking a few lvl 1 followers with wands of Ghoul Touch, or something?

The "proper big dumb barbarian" will go down to those only rolling 1s for his Fort-save, maybe a scooch higher if his Con isn't that impressive and he's not multi-classed.


Goat buggery isn't a crime. Lamashtu said so!


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talk to your gm.
do the dark side of the force betrayal.
have your minions start trouble for the party -you mentioned some allies of the party? good targets there - kidnap\kill\frame them via your minions. have the party chase the clues of who did the deed and why etc. to lead them to the chosen battlefield. all the while being part of the team. (your minions doesn't actually have to know you. they might only know the cloaked figure who is behind the men she sent. so they can't tell on you). this would allow you to split the party by having to rescue two different allies at once (so you and one party member go to one and the rest to the other etc).
go for the non lethal options mentioned above.
once you have them all subded offer them to join you as your minions. if refused send them off (with\without gear depaed how crual you want to be)
then hand over your pc to the gm (or be co-gm) until they take your character down or fail as any other sub-quest they faced so far.


Question how did you get oathbound as a Antipaladin?


Dave Justus wrote:
Just write your character out and move on. Tell the story of the party and your new character, rather than wasting time on a character that is just going away.

Honestly based on the set up, to me the best way to handle this is the party goes to the group your character doesn't want and as everyone is walking in to join your character is just like "This is where we part ways. I'm going to the Linear Guild"

And then your character becomes a NPC that the GM can use and you play a new character who was a member of the Order of the Stick the whole time.


Will the party interaction impact the real world players? Hurt feelings, etc?


McDaygo wrote:

If someone got that upset out of character over a fictional person they are pretending to be cause their team mate killed them at worst or screwed them over... then they have bigger issues.

Quite right! Anyone who cares one way or another what happens in a game has serious psychological issues! No-one should be affected in any way by what happens in RPGs! They shouldn't be unhappy when things go badly or pleased when things go well! They should meet it all with complete indifference, given that it's entirely made up fictional nonsense!


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McDaygo wrote:

I actually wouldn’t want to play with a table that disallowed PvP. If someone got that upset out of character over a fictional person They are pretending to be cause their team mate killed them at worst or screwed them over... then they have bigger issues.

That is just as bad to me as players that only are stats on paper and build only towards combat having zero worth in game in other areas. When I run games if you don’t have some social aspect or something to bring to the table out of combat your character isn’t going to reap the rewards of cooler gear. I reward role playing and story advancement not knowing how to mechanically dominate a fight.

Yeah, that's not how things work.

People care about their characters, typically.

It's one thing to have planned in character disagreements or fights. It can be an interesting dynamic if everybody is in on it.

But when a character betrays another character, and not everyone is in on it leads to feelings of betrayal between players, which is bad. That's real life animosity, not an in game adversarial relationship.

By and large most table don't allow PVP because it violates the main goal of the game, which is to have fun. Which most players don't have if they can't trust their fellow players not to screw them over. Because yes, people get attached to their characters and don't want bad things to happen to them, this is largely considered normal.

This is not to say your way of playing is bad or wrong, it's just not representative of the typical player (at least in my experience).

At least not unless you enter the game with that specific direction. It's one thing if I enter a game with the premise of "this is going to be super hard dungeon crawl, be prepared to die and have extra characters waiting". It's another if the party rogue gets up in the middle of the night and kills everyone in what was supposed to be a cooperative AP spanning months or years of in game time (and potentially the same IRL).


McDaygo wrote:
Question how did you get oathbound as a Antipaladin?

I pointed out to my GM that Antipaladin is not well-supported with content, and he agreed to let me take Paladin archetypes.

Silver Crusade

Personally, I think this should be run as a "double GM" game. Like, the moment your AP reveals his betrayal, he becomes an enemy BBEG, you can control him and his actions, but should expect to lose. Make it memorable, make it fun, make it a damn close call, but be ready to lose, and have your character killed.

Silver Crusade

As a role player, I like the idea. As a member of a team, I think railroading the story into a series of one on one’s is against the spirit of the game.


First up, I agree with everyone who had said this is a dick move. Pathfinder is a team game and PvP is the exact opposite of teamwork.

That said. With the GM's consent. Poison the other characters over dinner when they will be disarmed and unarmoured. Then you and your cohorts, hirelings etc finish the job.

At this point the group can agree whether it is a dream sequence that never happened or carry on or whether they want an alternate PvP match for one session which will also be a dream sequence. (By dream sequence, I mean it never really happened and 5hings go on as if the events never occurred)


BlueCherryFizz wrote:
Shock and surprise, my Antipaladin has been a bit clashy with the rest of the party.

This is basically why a lot of DMs just don't allow for evil characters - at some point they're going to try and betray the party. Then the players are likely to hate that whole scenario.

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