And Yet More Questions for the Rules Lawyers…


Rules Questions


1) Melee with alchemical weapons. Had an opponent with a very high AC. Fairly low on spells so they started throwing alchemists fire and vials of acid. On PC has both fire and acid resist 5. Very low dex so he kept missing his throws. Wanted to know if he could just walk up and smash the vials on the opponent as a melee touch attack since he probably wouldn’t take any (or only 1) damage. I’ve never been asked that before. I was going to allow it, but the others in the group made the kill before it came to his turn again. Should that be an allowed tactic?
2) A PC is making leaping charge attacks. Special jump ability can go 40’ up. So he is going over enemies and dropping on the rear ranks. Does the feat Death From Above work with these leaping attacks.
3) Mauler familiar can be switched into battle form and back 3 times a day. Am I just missing where it says how long it can stay in battle form or is it indefinite?
4) Aasimar cleric with Channel Force. a) Does a target have to be damaged by the channel to be pushed around (ie, can I force channel anyone, not just undead)? b) How does Channel Force interact with Variant Channeling (do I only throw them half as far or the full distance)? c) What about Versatile Channeler?

Grand Lodge

1)I haven't seen anything regarding alchemical weapons being used in melee

2) anyone can charge in any direction so long as they aren't facing difficult terrain or blocked by obstacles. But your movement must be in a straight line. So if you have the ability to do a standing jump straight up 40 ft, you can charge 40ft straight up. But your charge lane has to be straight. So while you can jump over a pit and continue a charge, you cannot jump over an obstacle that is blocking your desired charge target.

3) There is no time limit. The mauler can stay medium size indefinitely.

4) They only have to fail the saving throw. For Variant channeling, your actual channel dice does not change so you still move a target based on regular channeling. Just any damage they take is halved. Half of 3d6 is still a base of 3d6. Versatile channeler, on the other hand, actually changes the dice you use. So if you channel positive energy normally at 3d6 and with versatile channeler you channel negative at 2d6 and you use negative channel to damage a living target, the force channel functions with 2d6 as the base, rather than 3d6.


1) you could probably rule it as an improvised melee attack

2) It really depends since the feat appears to imply your are charging downwards. I would not say you get the benefits of the feat as you technically aren't charging from higher ground but through it, but it really should be ruled on the spot based on circumstances. The Dragonfly Flight feat would definitely let you benefit from it thou.

Also while for a regular charge as Syries says, is true. However, there are many feats/abilities/items that change the rules, so keep an eye out.

3) yep its indefinite, the only change from the previous version is a limit to how many times it can change. No more on demand battle buddy :(.


1) To start with, if the vials were initially thrown then they can not be picked back up. These are splash weapons and we see what happens when you miss with them

Splash Weapons wrote:

You Miss: First, roll 1d8 to determine the misdirection of the throw.

1 – Falls short (straight line towards the thrower.)

2 through 8 – Count around the target creature or grid intersection in a clockwise direction.

Then, count a number of squares in the indicated direction equal to the number of range increments thrown. The thrown object lands that number of spaces away from the target.

Finally, the item deals splash damage (if any) to all creatures in the square it lands in and in all adjacent squares.

Now, as for melee attacking with them, assuming that the alchemical item in question has not already been thrown, they would be considered an improvised melee weapon. So, they would take a -4 to hit with it. Given how small they tend to be it would likely do something on the order of 1d2 damage, in addition to the normal effects of the item. So, the character meleeing with it would suffer the normal splash damage effects (which their resistances would protect them from).

2) It really depends on how the special jump ability is worded. In order to charge you have to move in a straight line to the closest square that you could make a melee attack from. So, unless the jump ability alters how charging works (which is possible), this wouldn't count as a charge attack since they aren't moving in a straight line nor are they arriving in the nearest spot from their starting position. Even if the special jump ability was considered a charge, by RAW it wouldn't qualify for the death from above feat since the character is neither charging from higher ground nor flying. unless the special jump ability states that the charge is treated as being one of these two things.

3) As others have stated there is no duration on this ability. Maybe the intention is that it's supposed to be a limited duration but by RAW it has no time limit.

4) a) Yes, if the target is not normally harmed by the channeling ability being used then they would also ignore the force effect. b) Variant channel doesn't specify that you use fewer or more dice only that the healing/damage received is increased or decreased by 50%. So, for example if your channel did 50% less damage plus some special effect, everything would be rolled as normal, just the targets being harmed would only take half the normal damage and would get to roll to save against the extra effect. The damage would not be halved again, even on a successful save. c) Channel force doesn't care if the energy being channeled is positive or negative only if you are channeling to harm creatures. Also, you can only either harm or heal creatures when you channel not both. So, if you're choosing to heal then channel force doesn't trigger since you didn't choose to channel to harm. Now, versatile channeler does reduce your effective level when doing the "opposite" channel. So, at certain levels this could result in a reduction of effect for the channel force effect as its based on every 2d6 of your channel.


If you use a alchemical weapon as a melee attack the person making the attack should take damage. You are talking about smashing something that is a splash attack while still holding it. If they are not still holding it, it would not be a melee attack it would still be a ranged attack.


LordKailas wrote:

...

2) It really depends on how the special jump ability is worded. ...
Quote:
As a full-round action, a giant flea can jump up to 120 feet. A flea can treat this jump as a charge, as long as the jump is in a straight line.

I could swear I remember reading that you can jump 1/3 of the linear distance up over things. But now I can't find it.


Using the improvised melee attack rules seem perfect. PC had a str of 22 and dex of 7. So even the improvised -4 is still a net gain on the to hit.

Can it be a touch attack though (I would think skipping the d2 damage)? That was the whole point of trying to use the alchemical fire anyway. They were having a hard time getting through the high AC.


Um I though he just had really bad luck, but if the AC is high enough for +6 str still not help then it just means that is a bad tactic for that character. As a GM you could let him do it, but raw wise you have little help.

A belt of mighty throwing would probably help with throwing things (strength to thrown weapon atk roll) going forward.


Revolving Door Alternate wrote:

Using the improvised melee attack rules seem perfect. PC had a str of 22 and dex of 7. So even the improvised -4 is still a net gain on the to hit.

Can it be a touch attack though (I would think skipping the d2 damage)? That was the whole point of trying to use the alchemical fire anyway. They were having a hard time getting through the high AC.

Its a DM call. improvised weapons are not normally touch attacks, but it seems perfectly reasonable in this situation to treat it as a touch attack since when thrown its a touch attack.

If they wanted to they could just splash the square the enemy is standing in.

Splash Weapons wrote:
You can instead target a specific grid intersection. Treat this as a ranged attack against AC 5. However, if you target a grid intersection, creatures in all adjacent squares are dealt the splash damage, and the direct hit damage is not dealt to any creature. You can’t target a grid intersection occupied by a creature, such as a Large or larger creature; in this case, you’re aiming at the creature.

sure, you're only doing splash damage to the enemy but hopefully they won't have trouble hitting AC 5. In some ways splash weapons are a little OP in that if someone wants to hit a target with the splash effect there's little to nothing the target can do to avoid it, assuming the thrower is within one range increment. Since even on a miss it ends up doing splash damage to the target as you'll just hit a square next to them instead.


Temperans wrote:
Um I though he just had really bad luck, but if the AC is high enough for +6 str still not help then it just means that is a bad tactic for that character. ...

Long story. Basically the party picked a fight with someone they shouldn't have. Plus they gave him plenty of time to buff up while they slowly and loudly kicked in doors looking for him.

Full plate with magic vestments, tower shield with magic vestments, amulet of natural armor, shield of faith, etc...


Revolving Door Alternate wrote:
LordKailas wrote:

...

2) It really depends on how the special jump ability is worded. ...
Quote:
As a full-round action, a giant flea can jump up to 120 feet. A flea can treat this jump as a charge, as long as the jump is in a straight line.
I could swear I remember reading that you can jump 1/3 of the linear distance up over things. But now I can't find it.

SRD

Long Jump wrote:
A long jump is a horizontal jump, made across a gap like a chasm or stream. At the midpoint of the jump, you attain a vertical height equal to one-quarter of the horizontal distance.
Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:
2) A PC is making leaping charge attacks. Special jump ability can go 40’ up. So he is going over enemies and dropping on the rear ranks. Does the feat Death From Above work with these leaping attacks.

RAW no. Leaping Charge does not make you flying or on higher ground. Death From Above requires higher ground or flying. The DFA feat gives you +5 vs. +3 for charging. As a GM, I wouldn't have a problem allowing this.

Gruingar de'Morcaine wrote:
4) Aasimar cleric with Channel Force. a) Does a target have to be damaged by the channel to be pushed around (ie, can I force channel anyone, not just undead)? b) How does Channel Force interact with Variant Channeling (do I only throw them half as far or the full distance)? c) What about Versatile Channeler?

Channel Force only requires a failed save, and movement is based on damage you could inflict, not damage you did inflict. Variant Channeling changes the amount of the healing/damage, but the number of die remains the same, so it does not affect CF.

/cevah

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