please explain "unchained" classes


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

51 to 100 of 127 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Cavall wrote:

No that's dishonest to look at it that way. The whole party can revive a fallen member in an unchained barbarian or any other class. (Life link oracles excepting)

You simply dont get that chance with a barbarian. Losing your con bonus for threshold and all the hp that buffed you to that point simply means that barbarian is dead. No stabilize or channel or cure wounds saves them. They drop they drop for good. It's an inherent flaw in the class that already suffers AC issues, so they have to be babied and minded more than many other martials to keep from hitting negatives.

Unchained is simply more functional and simpler in its design. It's like someone putting up a cover over a 2 meter hole in the death star.

If the barbarian gets hit to the point where it's at, for example, -9hp, then the drop from 18 con to 16 isn't going to instagib them. The 'suddenly dead' threshold is only that small range granted by the raging con bonus.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

at level 1 there is a 6 hp suddenly dead threshold, the change in con (its a 4 point difference not 2) score + the 2 hp a level it provides. At level 2 it becomes 8, level 3 it becomes 10, level 4 it becomes 12, level 5 it becomes 15.

So at level 1, if you're hit to -9, then lose your rage, your death mark becomes -14, and you're actually at -11.

At level 2 you're at -13 and dead next round unless the healer can get to you or you roll an 17+ on a d20, at level 3 and above you're at -15 or lower and dead.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Ryan is correct.

You're dropping in HP per hit die and dropping the entire con bonus off the other end as a threshold.

So you're suddenly taking more damage and at the same time the death threshold gets 4 points (not 2) closer.

Hes shown clearly how at level 3 and up it's a death sentence. Compared to unchained where it's a temp hp bonus and has no bearing on negatives at all.

Even if it was a "small range" (it isnt) it's an inherent flaw and unchained fixed it.

Can you take more damage before hitting negatives with a barbarian while raging? Yes. Absolutely.
Are you likely to TAKE more damage due to AC penalties and die once you hit negatives? Yes. Absolutely.


Cavall wrote:

Ryan is correct.

You're dropping in HP per hit die and dropping the entire con bonus off the other end as a threshold.

So you're suddenly taking more damage and at the same time the death threshold gets 4 points (not 2) closer.

Hes shown clearly how at level 3 and up it's a death sentence. Compared to unchained where it's a temp hp bonus and has no bearing on negatives at all.

Even if it was a "small range" (it isnt) it's an inherent flaw and unchained fixed it.

Can you take more damage before hitting negatives with a barbarian while raging? Yes. Absolutely.
Are you likely to TAKE more damage due to AC penalties and die once you hit negatives? Yes. Absolutely.

It gets worse when you reach the point that dropping out of a rage WHILE CONSCIOUS may kill you.


....

Lame!


Cavall wrote:

....

Lame!

quite. The unchained classes are uniformly either better for the player (the martials) or better for the game (summoner)


Uh, you do realize you don't lose additional hp when rage ends right? Only your max hp is reduced, not your current hp.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Do go on. I 100% see no backing of your statement, but I would love to hear how you got there.

Are you saying that if a 6th level barbarian rages at 3 hp and gets a maximum of 98 he somehow heals 12 out of nowhere? And can just rage cycle up to full?

Because, and again this is just me and the rules here, but no.


Wait. Maybe you're saying only the maximum changes so that any barbarian gaining 14 maximum hp doesnt gain 14 actual hp and must be topped off because only the maximum changes and not current?

Hooray this class is even more useless than advertised. Unchained all the way.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Unchained Barbarian is only slightly weaker, but a LOT less interesting because they never bothered replacing a bunch of the really cool stuff Core Barbarians have for Rage Powers. They also decided that, for the class with Rage as its main focus, that is wild and full of raw power, should have structured stances as its central combat theme. Because that sure makes sense...

Falling into the Barbarian Death Zone has ways to be mitigated, some even in-class like Renewed Vigor (which even works if you have Superstition!). Another way to mitigate it is to pay attention and get some emergency healing if you're too close. Barbarians have Perception as a class skill and, ideally, so should their players.
I've seen some people mention having the Raging Vitality feat as an "of course you'll have this", but that +2 increase on raging Con bonus is likely a curse in disguise and might contribute to people's idea of "Barbarian end combat = Barbarian dead".


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:
Uh, you do realize you don't lose additional hp when rage ends right? Only your max hp is reduced, not your current hp.

Your current HP does go down. You stay at the number of hit points away from maximum that you were. Think of it as retaining the wounds taken. If your current didn't go back down, then the exploit Cavall hypothesized for your interpretation would exist, and it doesn't. Con increase means maximum and current HP increase, and Con decrease means maximum and current HP decrease.


I like the stances. They mimic the iconic barbarian Conan where he changes stances based on opponents. Let's be honest much of what makes these classes is just as much fantasy fiction (Gandalf, Strider, Mr Hyde) than history.

I would also assume any rage power after Unchained came out would be good for both classes, which is quite a fair bit.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Unchained Barbarian is a massive downgrade.

Loss of stat bonuses means loss of compatibility with stuff like Raging Brutality. It also means that the Unchained Barbarian has a weaker Fortitude save. When 2-handing a weapon (the most viable and least feat intensive option for a class with no bonus feats but loves to take Extra Rage Power), loss of the stat increase means less damage. It can't even make use of archery (the most effective combat style), since the unchained rage only applies to melee attacks and thrown weapons specifically.

The stances may seem like a good idea, but in actuality are also a nerf to the class. This is because stances are incompatible with one another. This means that you can't have Accurate/Reckless Stance for the attack bonus AND Taunting Stance active at once. Yet a Core Barbarian could easily have Reckless Abandon AND Come and Get Me (the stance equivalents) going simultaneously without issue.

More importantly though, rage cycling was done away with entirely as all of the once/ per rage powers got changed to once per day. While some of you may think that race cycling was cheesy, it's also important to note that rage cycling was literally baked into the class as a level 17 class feature when the Barbarian gets Tireless Rage. As it stands now, level 17 for an Unchained Barbarian is pretty much worthless.

Piggybacking off of this issue, is the fact that a lot of rage powers just got straight up nerfed to the point of irrelevancy, or worse, no longer exist. The loss of Dragon Totem Wings and Greater Elemental Blood for flight really hurt, since the only other viable way to attain real flight is to use Wings of Flying (which take up the all-important Shoulder slot). Ultimate Clarity, while not too popular because of it's prerequisite rage powers, was also MIA in the transfer.

But by far, the worst offender has got to be what happened to Spell Sunder. It's been reduced to a s*&~ty add-on to Witch Hunter that only activates when you crit (i.e. not in your control), and on top of that, can no longer dispel, but only suppress a single effect for a single round. The complete loss of power and agency here is astounding. The niche for the Barbarian as a premier martial dispeller has been completely removed.

Even with the Temp HP change, I simply cannot see the Unchanined Barbarian as anything other than a substantial nerf to one of the few non-magical martial classes that was already in a decent place.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

Note that these issues almost exclusively kick in at around double digit levels. CaGM is 12th level, Greater Elemental Blood maybe 11th, Rage Cycling can be done at 8th level but is more commonly done after you have pounce (and without it, Spell Sunder is notably worse).
Meanwhile, temp HP are better against HP damage than a temporary con boost (and it saves healing!), unBarb has an accuracy booster that doesn't lower AC (Accurate Stance), and has better overall saves against spells (unSuperstition stacks with the Will bonus from unRage, resulting in a -2 to Fort saves but a +2 to Will saves on a strong fort progression weak will progression class).
Archery Barbarian wants an archetype in any case, and Primal Hunter works just fine with unBarb.
Two-handed weapons lose at most 2 points of damage, and definitely only 1 before 11th level.
Lastly, being incompatible with Raging Brutality but not needing it either is an upgrade.

Yes, unBarb can't really compete against a rage cycling cBarb. That's intended. But at least you can now roleplay your character, instead of being a f#!*ing joke: "AAAARRRR, I'M SO ANGRY!!! No, wait, I'm totally calm. ANGRY AGAIN, RAAAA!!! I'm cool, I'm cool. GRRRRRR!!!" and so on, in about the same timespan you just read this. Yeah, that's real good roleplaying with a relatable character...

Kaouse wrote:
While some of you may think that race cycling was cheesy, it's also important to note that rage cycling was literally baked into the class as a level 17 class feature when the Barbarian gets Tireless Rage.

Tireless Rage is copied from 3.5, where Barbarian's did not have any Rage Powers, so rage cycling wasn't a thing. The Pathfinder devs didn't write Tireless Rage to give them the ability, they just didn't foresee the interaction. Indeed, the existence of the unBarb proves that rage cycling was not intended, as remove thing is the main reason to 'unchain' the class.

As I've previously said in this thread, "unBarb is a much better made class than cBarb, with a higher floor (i.e. better at low optimization levels) and lower ceiling (worse at high optimization levels). Ragecycling was always a cheezy abuse. The class could do with a) a rage power to fly, and b) some way to enter a Rage Stance as a swift or free action, though."


I often wonder if people railing about the downgrade have actually played a ubarb for any length of time or if its standard napkin math.

My experience with a pouncing TWF ubarb indicates its mostly napkin math.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Even if Rage cycling wasn't meant to be abused as a once per round type of thing, it was always clear that those rage powers were at least designed to be used once per encounter. We can agree on that, correct?

If so, then you must also agree that said "once per rage/encounter" abilities turning into "once per day" abilities, is a nerf even for those playing the class as intended, no?

As for double digit levels, quite a few were available from level 6 at the earliest. Notably, Spell Sunder, for example. Can you address how huge the loss of Spell Sunder is for this class? Even ignoring rage cycling, the ability to suppress/dispel external magical effects on demand made Barbarians a great class.

It wasn't just something to use on Pounce targets, on the contrary! It actually gave them something viable to do out of combat, and many consider it to be a new niche that not many other martial classes could boast of.

In other words, the main problem I have with the Unchained Barbarian isn't so much a loss of power, as it is a loss of versatility. I once made a build of a "smart" Barbarian who boosted his skills with Auspicous Mark, and buffed his Spellcraft skill for Spell Sunder. This way, I could fluff him studying a spell intensely (entering Rage, which I renamed "Focus"), having a "Eureka moment" (Auspicious Mark) and then dismantling the spell with a bit of calculated applied force (Spell Sunder). For further fun, he had Ultimate Clarity, to see through disguises and illusions. He wasn't super focused on damage, but he was super useful to a party and still somewhat tanky.

His entire build will be impossible to play as an Unchained Barbarian. Basically, the Unchained Barbarian pigeonholed the class into damage dealer and nothing more, robbing the Barbarian of what little utility and self-sufficiency they had left. If that's not a nerf, I don't know what is.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I think the death threshold is overblown. Chances are, your barbarian is frequently the only thing standing between your squishies getting ripped apart so the bonus hp is extremely crucial in making that happen. Raging Vitality also helps avoid that fate, I consider it a must-have. You could also use Diehard to the same effect.

Losing the Fortitude Bonus from Raging hurts a lot and I never really had any trouble with the math portion so the Unchained Barbarian just seems worse in every way.


Kaouse wrote:
If that's not a nerf, I don't know what is.

It's "worse at high optimization levels". I never said anything else. The old class is still there, and someone who a) has the system mastery to make it work and b) has the social intelligence to build a character fitting for the group can still use it.

For your average Barbarian, it's probably a sidegrade.

Yes, I dislike a some of the changes to rage powers (1/day should not be lame s~!& like that, but something amazing like Spell Kenning), but unBarb is really not that different to a cBarb for the vast majority of (non-cheezy) Barbarian builds.

Scavion wrote:
Losing the Fortitude Bonus from Raging hurts a lot

Why? Why does it "hurt a lot"? The damage you can take before dropping unconscious is identical for both rages.


You're a con based class with fort best saves and very likely (according to how many stage it off handily as fact) superstition rage power. Fort saves arent hurt at all by not having a con bonus. Pretending it breaks the class is a joke.

Having rage cycle cheese "baked in" to a class that also ABSOLUTELY has a baked in "oh you can't rage cycle at X HP or your head explodes" is a dumb class ability. As noted before, first is a left over from 3.5 when rage powers didnt exist, the other is how it is cheesed now.

If anything is intentional, its having your head blow up because you tried to cheese at the wrong time.


Kaouse wrote:

Can you address how huge the loss of Spell Sunder is for this class? Even ignoring rage cycling, the ability to suppress/dispel external magical effects on demand made Barbarians a great class.

It wasn't just something to use on Pounce targets, on the contrary! It actually gave them something viable to do out of combat, and many consider it to be a new niche that not many other martial classes could boast of.

Even if it wasn't quite as amazingly good as it is, it would still be REALLY FRIGGIN' COOL as long as it wasn't downright bad. Additionally, since they're usable outside of combat/against targets other than creatures, both Spell Sunder and Sunder Enchantment can see use even without Improved Sunder (or before you get a chance to grab Improved Sunder).

Has anyone addressed the fact that Core Barbarians can be archers? Because they can, and there's even a nice archetype for it. Not so with UnBarb: when they were redesigning Rage, they happened to forget that bows want Strength to damage, too. Arguing that UnBarb more easily enables an additional type of combat is ignoring the fact that it shuts out another entirely.
I wouldn't mind if they just prevented Rage Cycling (a better way to do that would be to add a "once per minute" clause to problematic Rage Powers rather than locking the fatigue at 1 minute) and swapped out the Con bonus for temporary HP (which is mostly a pretty nice solution), but changing out the Strength bonus was a really bad move.


Bloodrealm wrote:
Kaouse wrote:

Can you address how huge the loss of Spell Sunder is for this class? Even ignoring rage cycling, the ability to suppress/dispel external magical effects on demand made Barbarians a great class.

It wasn't just something to use on Pounce targets, on the contrary! It actually gave them something viable to do out of combat, and many consider it to be a new niche that not many other martial classes could boast of.

Even if it wasn't quite as amazingly good as it is, it would still be REALLY FRIGGIN' COOL as long as it wasn't downright bad. Additionally, since they're usable outside of combat/against targets other than creatures, both Spell Sunder and Sunder Enchantment can see use even without Improved Sunder (or before you get a chance to grab Improved Sunder).

Has anyone addressed the fact that Core Barbarians can be archers? Because they can, and there's even a nice archetype for it. Not so with UnBarb: when they were redesigning Rage, they happened to forget that bows want Strength to damage, too. Arguing that UnBarb more easily enables an additional type of combat is ignoring the fact that it shuts out another entirely.
I wouldn't mind if they just prevented Rage Cycling (a better way to do that would be to add a "once per minute" clause to problematic Rage Powers rather than locking the fatigue at 1 minute) and swapped out the Con bonus for temporary HP (which is mostly a pretty nice solution), but changing out the Strength bonus was a really bad move.

two weapon fighting is far more barbarian iconic than archery


As long as you dont pass the save on a 2, having more saves is never a bad thing. So yes, losing a +2 to your Fortitude save sucks. Especially in early levels but does not lose value with your later levels.

The Ubarb lowers complexity for lowered power which I think is a bad trade in one of the simpler character classes out there.

On topic but in other words: I think the Unchained Monk is excellent and provides a cool martial artist style character with good features and mobility.

The Unchained Summoner spell list is a solid update although I think I would maintain the old eidolon rules.

URogue seems like they made a lot of safe choices not to push the bill. It's okay I guess. I would probably still rather play other classes for the same general theme I should be playing Rogues for.


Martials aren't simple unless you've got some game experience under your belt already.

And to be frank no one has done much but claim that its less powerful, while using as their examples niche builds that other classes still do better and niche abilities that kind of go counter to the core themes of the class.

Meanwhile ubarb makes the frenzy barb from diablo or fury warrior from wow a feasable choice, as well as classic drizzt (who had barbarian levels), groo the wanderer (barbarian with 2 katana) and other actually thematic characters, while not having them drop dead at the end of a close fight if they cant get healing quickly enough.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Ryan Freire wrote:

Martials aren't simple unless you've got some game experience under your belt already.

And to be frank no one has done much but claim that its less powerful, while using as their examples niche builds that other classes still do better and niche abilities that kind of go counter to the core themes of the class.

Meanwhile ubarb makes the frenzy barb from diablo or fury warrior from wow a feasable choice, as well as classic drizzt (who had barbarian levels), groo the wanderer (barbarian with 2 katana) and other actually thematic characters, while not having them drop dead at the end of a close fight if they cant get healing quickly enough.

Define feasible because as I understand it all of those concepts are still performed more than passably well by the normal barbarian. And from what I've read of Drizzt, he's had several fights where he was running solely on adrenaline and dropped unconcious when it was over.

I think it is disingenuous to say that the unchained barbarian performs better(because it doesn't).

It is built to be simpler to understand where quite frankly it was not that difficult to understand in the first place.


It does perform better.

Its disingenuous to write off how much better it is at dual wielding while holding up archery as some big benefit. Its disingenuous to write off sudden barbarian death syndrome as not a big deal when the reality is its just something experienced players have learned to work around.


Ryan Freire wrote:

It does perform better.

Its disingenuous to write off how much better it is at dual wielding while holding up archery as some big benefit.

Sure, it performs better... at two-weapon fighting. It performs worse at everything else.

My point about archery was exactly what I wrote: that you may be able to do one type of fighting somewhat easier, but you also remove another type of fighting as a possibility entirely. I never claimed archery to be "iconic" or a huge boon to the class or anything; I claimed it was a viable option.
You seem to be REALLY stuck on two-weapon fighting.


They're the only martial that can get pounce in a reasonable fashion without relying on a mount and chain of mounted combat feats.

They have a rage power that provides a massive boost to critfishing later in levels

They have the most accuracy boost of any martial save rangers against a focused favored enemy which benefits two weapon fighting more than it does other fighting styles

Dual wielding barbarians are easily as iconic as big weapon barbarians, and base barbarian does not do as well at it.

So yeah, im "stuck" on two weapon fighting, as it is the highest DPR fighting style once you get access to some form of pounce.


The attack/damage bonuses are functionally identical to +4 Strength so I'm still not understanding where we came to the conclusion that Dual Wielding was better Unchained. It amounts to a single point of damage across most standard levels of play(and goes up to TWO points damage at the rest of rarer levels). Woops, actually it isn't better once Double Slice is brought into the picture either, a feat that you're probably taking anyways.

I've played D&D for about 15~ish years of my life and I can count the number of times a Barbarian has died from "sudden death syndrome" on 1 hand across numerous groups of both veteran and new players alike. The first time a player ever has a brush with death leveling a Barbarian is the first and only warning they need of "I need to watch out because I might berserk too hard and die."

Dual Wielding is not significantly improved by the Unchained Barbarian if a single feat can replicate it. Meanwhile, 2handed weapons are slightly better and Archery fully benefits from the old Rage as opposed to getting nothing from Unchained.

Two Weapon Fighting is not even really the highest DPR combat style.(It's archery actually, but we're not too concerned about that right now.) Two Weapon Fighting also flags behind Two-Handers until significantly later(When you have gold to blow on two +4 Weapons(+3 Weapons with Furious) due to Two-Weapon Fighting penalties and Damage Reduction. Maybe it does pretty well if you fight nothing with damage reduction, but the 2-Hander in that situation is performing just as well.

Ryan Freire wrote:


They have a rage power that provides a massive boost to critfishing later in levels

I assume you are talking Accurate Stance and not Mighty Swing(Since both Barbarians get Mighty Swing, but the normal Barbarian is able to use it every fight[Or every round with rage cycling, but we won't talk about that])Massive(? Is +2 massive?) boost to crit confirming, not crit fishing. You will threaten the same number of crits without Accurate Stance regardless. Furthermore, until level 12, you have only canceled out the two-weapon fighting penalty. The normal Barbarian is performing similarly with Reckless Abandon.

Ryan Freire wrote:


They have the most accuracy boost of any martial save rangers against a focused favored enemy which benefits two weapon fighting more than it does other fighting styles

They don't actually. Fighters(Weapon Master Fighter in particular), Inquisitors, and Slayers(Ranger Combat Styles!!) all end up with a total bonus higher for Two-Weapon Fighting. Fighters and Slayers in particular get bonus feats to fit things like Critical Focus. Fighters also get the highest DPR(You started saying DPR, not me!) boosting ability in the game for critfishers: Weapon Mastery.

Ryan Freire wrote:


Dual wielding barbarians are easily as iconic as big weapon barbarians, and base barbarian does not do as well at it.

I agree that dual wielding barbarians are awesome. The base Barbarian is just as good at it though.


Unchained Barbarian also doesn't have Strength Surge, instead having "Strength Stance" as a replacement. Unfortunately, it's a replacement at one quarter the power.

So the Core Barbarian is better at 2 handed weapons, better at combat maneuvers, better at retaliatory strikes (can use Come and Get Me in combination with Reckless Abandon and Strength Surge), and much better at dispelling enemy magic. Core Barbarian can also fly on their own, and can see through darkness and illusions if they so choose.

The Unchained Barbarian is better at two weapon fighting, and at not dying when they go unconcious, saving one feat in each of those cases over the Core Barbarian (Double Slice & Raging Vitality respectively).

Pretty much an all-around nerf, IMHO. Like I said, every bit of utility is gone. Quite a bit of mechanical power was also removed. Even when it comes to getting crits, Core Barbarian is still better at that, thanks to Boar's Charge.

That said, I do like the Unchained Monk and Rogue though.


Barbarians get their crit multiplier boost at level 16, 4 levels and likely an entire module before fighters get weapon mastery which is their capstone.

Ubarb, class abilities only as to hit boosts are a wash, +20 BAB, + 4 from rage +6 from accurate stance.

Fighter +20bab +6/7 from weapon training + gloves of dueling

Slayer +20bab +5 from studied target

How is the fighter or slayer more accurate than the Ubarb while dual wielding again?

"boars charge wrote:
Special: This rage power is available to wereboars, wereboar-kin and those who associate with these creatures.

Hope your gm brings wereboars into the game or you're playing one specific race.

Reckless abandon: dumping AC while youre already at -2 ac from raging is how you get wrecked.

Lot of theory, very little actual play demonstrated in this thread.


Quite frankly, "associate with these creatures [Wereboars]" can be easily made a part of one's backstory.

Not like it matters much though. You seem to be missing my major point with all of my posts. That is, that the Unchained Barbarian has lost huge amounts of utility and is pigeonholed into being purely a damage dealer.

Can you address the loss of Spell Sunder, Flight, Ultimate Clarity, Strength Surge, and all of the other "once per rage" powers, etc.?

Yes, yes, I can admit that the Unchained Barbarian can still deal damage, but the question is, what else can it do besides damage?

Even without spells, Paladins have team-wide auras as well as healing abilities with Lay on Hands and Mercies. Rangers have scouting and tracking. Outside of damage, what can an Unchained Barbarian do? The class has gone from Tier 4 to Tier 5, nerfed down to the same level as Fighter.

And for all this talk about playtime vs theory, how often do you face a flying enemy, in Pathfinder? How does an Unchained Barbarian deal with a flying enemy? Buy Wings of Flying? Buy a magic carpet? Or more likely, hope your friend would rather spend time and resources buffing you instead of dealing directly with the threat at hand?

I'm getting a little bit off topic, but non self sufficient martials are nothing more than a drain on the party's resources. Their share of the loot would be infinitely better spent on a planar ally, or better yet, a crafted Construct. The Core Barbarian was one of the few martials truly able to justify their place on a team. They didn't need to be "enabled" to deal damage, and they also brought extra utility in the form of Spell Sunder, and even some decent control options with Strength Surge as well as Come and Get Me.

The Unchained Barbarian has none of that. They have nothing to offer a team outside of dealing damage.


Ryan Freire wrote:

Barbarians get their crit multiplier boost at level 16, 4 levels and likely an entire module before fighters get weapon mastery which is their capstone.

Ubarb, class abilities only as to hit boosts are a wash, +20 BAB, + 4 from rage +6 from accurate stance.

Fighter +20bab +6/7 from weapon training + gloves of dueling

Slayer +20bab +5 from studied target

How is the fighter or slayer more accurate than the Ubarb while dual wielding again?

...

Reckless abandon: dumping AC while youre already at -2 ac from raging is how you get wrecked.

Lot of theory, very little actual play demonstrated in this thread.

A bard. Inspire Courage doesn't stack with Accurate Stance. For the Fighter, Warrior Spirit to give their weapon Bane and Greater Weapon Focus. For the Slayer, Quarry and Ranger Combat Styles (to dump Dex).

I have not played a Ubarb. I have played a regular Barb and the most annoying part was sitting around doing nothing or plinking away with my bow (eventually Adaptive, but that's a minor patch at best). I took Greater Elemental Blood before Greater Beast Totem just so I wasn't sitting around while the enemy was out of reach. If they don't fly they cast walls or pit traps or the terrain hurts you or there's so many minions you can't reach them. I don't really care if the Ubarb or Barb is more accurate or hits harder unless it's some obscene difference. I do care whether Smashy McFace can take her axe and smash some faces in. Ubarb not only doesn't have those options, they actively removed them. And if you think it's theorycraft that lots of mid-high level enemies can fly or prevent you from reaching them, I don't think you've ever played at higher levels.


Ryan Freire wrote:

Barbarians get their crit multiplier boost at level 16, 4 levels and likely an entire module before fighters get weapon mastery which is their capstone.

Ubarb, class abilities only as to hit boosts are a wash, +20 BAB, + 4 from rage +6 from accurate stance.

Fighter +20bab +6/7 from weapon training + gloves of dueling

The Fighter's also means you never need to roll critical confirmation again which the Barbarian still needs to. Class Abilities only, a Fighter gets 11 more bonus feats across his levels. He can pick something like Weapon Focus(and Greater), Weapon Specialization(and Greater!), Two-Weapon Fighting feats that the Barbarian struggles to take like Two-Weapon Defense, Rend, and Double Slice. We can also honorary mention Critical Focus, Improved Critical, Staggering Critical and Critical Versatility(!).

So with just the Fighter Only feats mentioned, a Fighter's bonus looks more like +8 Atk/+10 Dmg which costs him only 4 of his bonus feats. The others he can use to grab things like Cornugon Smash, Shatter Defenses, Hurtful(Bonus Attack!), and Intimidating Prowess to squeeze out more damage and make it more likely his iterative attacks hit.

Now all of that is before we mention Advanced Weapon Training which lets the Fighter do crazy awesome stuff like dual wield Falcatas(Which he can get proficiency with as one of his bonus feat class abilities) as light weapons and use Warrior Spirit to boost his weapon so that he can punch through that all important Damage Reduction(That is on a LOT of monsters).

There is a reason why the Fighter, despite it's MANY flaws before AWT and after AWT, still stands with the top dogs of dealing damage.

Ryan Freire wrote:


Slayer +20bab +5 from studied target

Slayer fits in nicely with a situational damage booster from Sneak Attack which at max level amounts to +21 Damage on average. It becomes less situational when, because a Slayer gets bonus feats that ignore prerequisites(Meaning the Slayer gets to have a higher Strength), can do things like get the important portions of the Two-Weapon Fighting tree without needing to pay for them. He can instead do what the Fighter did above and pick up Shatter Defenses for an easy way of enabling his Sneak Attack and lowering the AC he needs to hit.

He also has access to the Achaekek Divine Combat Style which lets him wield a superior weapon for Two-Weapon Fighting the Saw-Toothed Sabre...and it lets him cheat and get those Two-Weapon Fighting feats.

Improved Quarry also gives the Slayer +4 to Attack rolls and allows him to automatically confirm criticals as well(Notice how the Barbarian still has to confirm).

So a Slayer's bonuses are looking more like +9 ATK/+26 DMG on Sneak Attack with a proper build like the one I detailed below. Unless you are up against one of the 5 rare creature types immune to Precision damage, but those are immune to Critical Hits anyways and your damage is not actually lower than the Barbarian's baseline so he is in as rough of a boat as you are.

Ryan Freire wrote:


Reckless abandon: dumping AC while youre already at -2 ac from raging is how you get wrecked.

Invulnerable Rager says hello. Beast Totem also cancels out the AC penalty. At the end of the day, unless you minmax AC and push it, the Barbarian is going to get hit a lot no matter what since To Hit tends to outstrip AC by far. The Invulnerable Rager mitigates that by a LOT and Beast Totem basically makes you ignore the penalty from Reckless Abandon. The Urban Barbarian also does not take the penalty to AC from Rage and the Savage Technologist gets an AC boost when they rage.

Ryan Freire wrote:


Lot of theory, very little actual play demonstrated in this thread.

People use theory as some kind of buzz word whenever someone breaks down mathematically how something works. If I wish I could link you to the logs for an old roll20 game I rolled in as a human Invulnerable Rager. Our party was a Summoner with a skill focused Eidolon, a kobold using an oversized gun, a dwarf inquisitor using a crossbow and a dhampir rogue. While everyone piddled about during encounters, my Barbarian pushed them through.

What I CAN provide you with is the meat and potatoes of a Slayer build from way back when which is actually suboptimal now(It's been 5 years) and could be built better now. Taldrin the Whirlwind

I have a lot of time to kill as well so if you provide me a Unchained Barbarian dual wielder, I'd be happy to provide you a similar slayer, fighter or normal Barbarian who pares nicely.


Nah i use theory when people clearly haven't played it.


Barbarian Pros
==============
Spell Sunder(Breaking buffs, debuffs, and walls with almost no failure chance is kinda amazing)
Reliable Personal Flight(Dragon Totem Wings)
Strength Surge
Better Fort Save
Archery is better
Two-Handers are slightly better
Lower time between Rages(1-5 rounds of rage spent means it will have equal to or less time fatigued)
Once Per Rage Powers

UBarbarian Pros
===============
Accurate Stance is pretty good although it does not stack with Inspire Courage.
AC is better. +5 more than vanilla Barbarian +3 more than the Urban Barbarian and -1 AC compared to the Savage Technologist.
Does not cost 1 feat to avoid sudden death syndrome.
Temp HP is good and is "free" hp as long as you get a minute of rest.
Math is easier
Inspire Ferocity is slightly better on UBarbarian.


Additional cBarb pro:
-Superstition works against supernatural abilities.
-CaGM + attack roll boost at the same time

Additional unBarb pros:
-Will save bonus stacks with Superstition (and with Heroism) resulting in a better will save against the important stuff
-TWF is slightly better

...

A Shoanti Burn Rider wearing some item made of hot siccatite can stay in rage indefinitely when using Regenerative Stance.

@Kaouse: While I mostly agree on your basic points, unBarb does its job at doing damage (and being overall usefull in most combats) so well that it is still tier 4. But then again, in the times of Warrior Spirit AWT + Training enchantment, Fighter is tier 4 as well.


Fighter cant get pounce unless mounted.

Slayer and ranger cant get pounce unless mounted

Flying, for all the amount you should need in an adventuring day is 16k in boots.

Barbarian is the only martial with access to pounce that doesn't require a rube goldberg machine that includes size considerations. That in and of itself makes it, IN PLAY, superior to other dual wielders.

Ubarb in particular gets the crit multiplier increase 4 levels earlier than fighter, who gets it at capstone, thats basically an entire adventure path. The +6 to confirm EVERY crit combined with the +4 from crit focus (if youre building a crit fisher) > one auto crit on a charge in actual play. +10 to hit on a martial is basically an autoconfirm.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ryan Freire wrote:
Barbarian is the only martial with access to pounce that doesn't require a rube goldberg machine that includes size considerations.

Can you please stop repeating this crap? Shifter has access to pounce, Vigilante has access to 'pounce', Metamorph Alchemist has access to pounce, Azatariel Swashbuckler has access to 'pounce', anything unarmed has access to 'pounce' via Pummeling Charge, any catfolk has access to pounce via Claw Pounce. None of these are even remotely complicated.


Azatariel swashbuckler: No TWF
Shifter: Natural attacks dont iterative, twf becomes tricky at best
Vigilante: got me there
Metamorph alchemist: natural attacks dont iterative/bad class choice for twf

Claw pounce: natural attacks dont iterative.

Responding with one good rebuttal and then a bunch of watered down alternatives isn't the rhetorical own you think it is.


Ryan Freire wrote:

...

Flying, for all the amount you should need in an adventuring day is 16k in boots.

...

Ubarb in particular gets the crit multiplier increase 4 levels earlier than fighter, who gets it at capstone, thats basically an entire adventure path. The +6 to confirm EVERY crit combined with the +4 from crit focus (if youre building a crit fisher) > one auto crit on a charge in actual play. +10 to hit on a martial is basically an autoconfirm.

3/day is usually enough. But definitely not always. Additionally, 16k is only cheap at higher levels. At level 10, when the CBarb could get flying, it's 26% of their money. Does that come from the armor, the weapon, the stat booster, the cloak? Where are they taking money away from? And Winged Boots means no Boots of Speed.

As I said last time, I've never played a UBarb. So maybe there's something obvious I'm missing, but is there some way you can enter a stance as a free/swift action? Because without that the UBarb's first turn is Rage, Accurate Stance, and maybe a move/activate the boots while the CBarb's first turn is Rage/Pouncemurder. You'd need an awful lot of extra damage (and probably some super long battles) to make up the difference of a Barbarian's full attack.


A barb can EITHER fly OR pounce. You only get to pick from 1 totem and pounce is a totem power.

I acknowledged above that the stance entering was a problem, but it makes up for it in moving from foe to foe throughout the combat.


Ryan Freire wrote:
Responding with one good rebuttal and then a bunch of watered down alternatives isn't the rhetorical own you think it is.

Your statetment wasn't "Barb is the only martial with pounce and bonuses to TWF", it was "Barbarian is the only martial with access to pounce that doesn't require a rube goldberg machine that includes size considerations." (and earlier, "They're the only martial that can get pounce in a reasonable fashion without relying on a mount and chain of mounted combat feats.").

Also:
Azatariel Swashbuckler can TWF just fine, and probably should.
Weretouched Shifter can easily use weapons and thus TWF (and add 3 natural attacks + flight).
Metamorph Alchemist could easily use weapons and thus TWF (and add 4 natural attacks + flight).
Claw Pounce works with Claw Blades, which are manufactured weapons and thus TWFable.
You didn't even address Pummeling Charge, which comes with TWF for half the enchantment cost. Okayo Corsair Swashbuckler especially TWFs very well with it.

Of course, having a bunch of natural attacks works about the same as TWF, so I don't see the reason for a distinction. Not that I believe your claim of "TWF is the highest DPR fighting style", fancy giving a (not overly complicated) sample build at say 12th level?

Ryan Freire wrote:
A barb can EITHER fly OR pounce. You only get to pick from 1 totem and pounce is a totem power.

Greater Elemental Blood (Air) works alongside Greater Beast Totem.


Umm...no iteratives means that natural attacks are stronger than Two Weapon Fighting, since you can get the same number of attacks (if not more) at your full attack bonus, rather than at -5/-10/-15 to hit (not including the inherent -2 or more you already take for using Two Weapon Fighting).

Not that it matters, since even if the Barbarian can deal high amounts of damage with Pounce, they're still lacking in utility that they can bring to a party. That's my major qualm right now.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

As a GM, I'd rather see a player bring a ubarb to my game than a cbarb, for two reasons:
1) if the player doesn't know what they're doing, the ubarb will be easier for them.
2) if they do know what they're doing/have read lots of guides and are trying to do some cheese that I might have to banhammer (infinite rage, really?), I believe cbarb has more options for that.

Come to think of it, the same applies to cmonk and umonk.

Increasing the skill floor while decreasing the exploit space is actually good from the perspective of trying to run a game.


Shifter natural attacks DO iterative, actually, and then use the rest of their natural attacks as secondaries.

Shifter wrote:
Shifter’s Fury (Ex): At level 6, a shifter gains the ability to make several ferocious attacks with the same natural weapon. Instead of attacking with all her natural weapons, the shifter can choose a single natural weapon and make a full attack with that natural weapon, gaining a second iterative attack at a –5 as if it was a manufactured weapon. When she does so, all her other natural attacks count as secondary attacks and don’t benefit from shifter’s claws. At 11th level, she gains a third iterative attack at a –10 and at 16th level, she gains a fourth iterative attack at –15.


It's not so much hating the Monk so much as the class being way too MAD imo. Yes other classes suffered from it yet Monk takes it to a whole new level. Wisdom for AC, Dex for Ranged, and AC. Str to hit and damage and Con to survive taking damage. The original class was and is still very usable. It needs to be played and run by the proper player.

The Unchained Rogue was a definite upgrade to the class imo. One that with the Monk was one that was being asked for by many on the forums. The Barbarian was just something out of left field entirely imo. The fanbase was asking for the Fighter to be given an upgrade and instead they gave us the Barbarian. Were their some asking for an improved Barbarian sure compared to the amount that others were asking for an improved Fighter nowhere near as much.


Monks can spec into weapon finesse to allow them to mostly drop strength. If you don't mind flying kick being weak, you can even go with Agile Handwraps and become a pure dex-monk. That drops the monk down to just 3 stats, which is perfectly manageable.

Yes, its unfortunate that Strength monks require a much higher point buy but until Paizo decides to offer Monks an accuracy boost like all other full BAB characters you have to cut corners somewhere.


With a Wand of Mage Armor, Barkskin ki power, and Dodge as a bonus feat, Monk AC is actually pretty fine, and with d10 HD, unMonk doesn't need more dex or con than, say, a Fighter.

unMonk doesn't ened more strength then otrher martials either - while it's ztrue that it has no regular accuracy boost, the bonus attacks serve the same purpose (and without an extra penalty, and a move-and-full-attack option, it actually works).

ShroudedInLight wrote:
an accuracy boost like all other full BAB characters

What? By default, Brawler, Gunslinger, Avenger Vigilante don't have any bonus to attack rolls, and Cavalier and Samurai only when charging.

@Particular Jones: unBarb is not about making it stronger. It's about fixing issues, and doing it was necessary. Not that I disagree that Fighter could really use an unchained version, but there are a bunch of things that I'd have dropped from unchained for an unFighter, before dropping unBarb.


The only issue that the Barbarian needed "fixing" was dropping dead when leaving Rage, and Raging Vitality already fixed that. Unless you think that a martial class getting access to stuff like Flight, Spell Sunder, Strength Surge, Ultimate Clarity etc. was an "issue," then Unchained Barbarian caused more problems than it solved, IMHO.

Even if you think rage cycling was an "issue" that absolutely needed to be solved, it would have been easy to prevent abuse by making them once per minute, rather than once per day. Which is exactly what they ended up doing for the Unchained Barbarian's temp HP, anyway.


So... then the issue was fixed when they made unchained? I don't get your point other than "I'd rather have a tax on barbarians".

The class ended rage cycle abuse and saved barbarians without a tax on barbarians. What again is your issue that you're rallying against here?

51 to 100 of 127 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / please explain "unchained" classes All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.