Massive spoiler dump from UK Games Expo


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Jason and Erik did an interview at games UK Expo. The interview itself wasn't very spoiler-y, but they did flip through book pages. I took the time to capture the best frames where the lighting lets you see each part of the pages with a video editor and put them all HERE.

PS: Yes, I have a lot of free time and not a lot of sanity.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Curse those glossy pages!

That said, the book is looking pretty snazzy!


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The images still need rearranging, for some reason imgur scrambled them. Working on that.

EDIT: Done


Thanks for this! I wonder if anyone can read these well enough to transcribe some of the content?


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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

This looks so gorgeous, especially the full-page illustrations. The art really speaks to the content next to it. 5e's PHB is beautiful too, but the subject of the art pieces feels more haphazard, as if the publisher said "put some nice fantasy paintings throughout the book."

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber

Neat, Goblin Scuttle now triggers on any ally!


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
JasonWFD wrote:
I wonder if anyone can read these well enough to transcribe some of the content?

Enhance!


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A lot of good thing, and a lot is readable.

So, no more Channel Energy? Now we have Divine Font!


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Dante Doom wrote:

A lot of good thing, and a lot is readable.

So, no more Channel Energy? Now we have Divine Font!

You say tomato, I say "cleric better have good spells this time around".


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Ediwir wrote:
Dante Doom wrote:

A lot of good thing, and a lot is readable.

So, no more Channel Energy? Now we have Divine Font!

You say tomato, I say "cleric better have good spells this time around".

On the plus side, even if the divine spell list hasn't changed much, it looks like Clerics do now get class feats at 12 and 16.

It's a little hard to read, but there's also "Miraculous Spell" listed in the Class feature table at level 19. Could that be a level 10 spell slot? I vaguely remember someone mentioning level 10 spells might not require a class feat to gain access to.


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wilderbeast wrote:
Ediwir wrote:
Dante Doom wrote:

A lot of good thing, and a lot is readable.

So, no more Channel Energy? Now we have Divine Font!

You say tomato, I say "cleric better have good spells this time around".

On the plus side, even if the divine spell list hasn't changed much, it looks like Clerics do now get class feats at 12 and 16.

It's a little hard to read, but there's also "Miraculous Spell" listed in the Class feature table at level 19. Could that be a level 10 spell slot? I vaguely remember someone mentioning level 10 spells might not require a class feat to gain access to.

Every class now has 11 Class Feats


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Dante Doom wrote:

A lot of good thing, and a lot is readable.

So, no more Channel Energy? Now we have Divine Font!

I did some pretty crazy stuff to be able to read Divine Font, including inverting the colors and changing the levels of the image on photoshop and stuff (I was really curious about that). Turns out it's just Channel Energy with a fancier name and 1+Cha uses instead of just Cha.


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dmerceless wrote:
Dante Doom wrote:

A lot of good thing, and a lot is readable.

So, no more Channel Energy? Now we have Divine Font!

I did some pretty crazy stuff to be able to read Divine Font, including inverting the colors and changing the levels of the image on photoshop and stuff (I was really curious about that). Turns out it's just Channel Energy with a fancier name and 1+Cha uses instead of just Cha.

Any luck reading the Doctrine info underneath Divine Font?

Silver Crusade

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I have mixed feelings about the new designs and how much space they take up, but the full-page illustrations look pretty damn gorgeous in the final book.

Silver Crusade

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dmerceless wrote:

Jason and Erik did an interview at games UK Expo. The interview itself wasn't very spoiler-y, but they did flip through book pages. I took the time to capture the best frames where the lighting lets you see each part of the pages with a video editor and put them all HERE.

PS: Yes, I have a lot of free time and not a lot of sanity.

Thank you very much for taking the time, and for sharing it with the community.


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Looking at alchemist, poisoner as a specialty is now gone. Bomber can't exclude allies anymore, instead they choose to not deal any splash damage. Alchemist also gets the Juggernaut ability for upgrading successes on Fort to crit successes at...11th? Also evasion at 15th. And master proficiency with light armour and unarmoured at 19th.

I also see MEGA BOMB at 20th, but the glare is too high to read.


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I think that if Weapon Specialization is a constant between classes, then the damage boost at level 15 is +4/6/8 for expert/master/legendary. We know that there's a thing that replaces some of the higher level dice that used to exist, so that's probably it.

Also looking at racial Weapon Expertise, it simply matches your highest weapon proficiency for your race's weapons. Base still is the ease of use bonus.

Legendary Treat Wounds is 2d8+50 for a DC40 check. Master looks like DC 20, +30 and Expert DC 20 for +10.


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Yes, thank you dmerceless, there's some real interesting stuff on these pages. I'm particularly enthusiastic about the MC archetypes, you can get a lot of mileage out of those if you have a character concept that wouldn't work very well with just one class.

Hey guys, is it me or the art is almost all by the same person? They're pretty good, too.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Roswynn wrote:

I'm particularly enthusiastic about the MC archetypes, you can get a lot of mileage out of those if you have a character concept that wouldn't work very well with just one class.

The MC art is especially good as all of it really evokes some other class + the MC. The Sorc and Fighter ones are particularly awesome.


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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I also got to flip through the book at the UK Games Expo, on Friday. I didn't take any pictures, but I too found the layout and artwork absolutely gorgeous.


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Thanks so much!

Classes now have more class features. Most martial classes get two class features every odd level, with spell casters getting 1 + a new level of spells.

Alchemists don't have a class feature at level 3. They also have a reliance on quick alchemy to use many of their feats, which makes them go through their level + int resources much quicker. That also means they don't get as much of a benefit from their only level 5 class feature. Can go bomb focused with feats, otherwise will need to find fitting archetypes.

We haven't seen any weapon prof improvements for barbarians, I bet they still have some on the levels not shown, but they won't get legendary prof with weapons.


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If anyone wants to watch the interview, here is the LINK.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The martial multiclass archetypes definitely got nerfed relative to the playtest. None of them seem to give you proficiency in both Armor and Weapons anymore (not even a deity's favored weapon for Champion), so if you were planning on doing a single feat dip to turn your Sorcerer or Wizard into a Gish think again.


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On the plus side, proficiencies scale a lot more in final, so you might not need to pick up both unless you really want the boost.


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rooneg wrote:
The martial multiclass archetypes definitely got nerfed relative to the playtest. None of them seem to give you proficiency in both Armor and Weapons anymore (not even a deity's favored weapon for Champion), so if you were planning on doing a single feat dip to turn your Sorcerer or Wizard into a Gish think again.

Ancestry feats can fill that gap though.


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This might be one of Paizo's most beautiful books! Even more than the Inner Sea Gods book, that's (in my opinion) the most beautiful PF1E book that I own.

The art in it is amazing! The ones in Chapter 8 are more impressive than I could expect. I hope there was space for a Deities section in this chapter.

Malk_Content wrote:
The MC art is especially good as all of it really evokes some other class + the MC. The Sorcerer and Fighter ones are particularly awesome.

Indeed, the art alone made me want to MC a fighter/wizard. The Wizard art was my favorite one, followed by the sorcerer.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
rooneg wrote:
The martial multiclass archetypes definitely got nerfed relative to the playtest. None of them seem to give you proficiency in both Armor and Weapons anymore (not even a deity's favored weapon for Champion), so if you were planning on doing a single feat dip to turn your Sorcerer or Wizard into a Gish think again.
Ancestry feats can fill that gap though.

Oh yeah, there are plenty of ways to work around the problem, it's just a bit harder than it was for the playtest. Honestly, I think it's probably for the best, as easy access to both a martial weapon and heavy armor proficiency for a single 2nd level feat is pretty busted.

Liberty's Edge

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I'll note that Halflings now get Keen Eyes for free on top of their other Ancestry stuff (Heritage and Ancestry Feat). That's great. An excellent solution to them being underpowered otherwise compared to Goblins getting Darkvision and the like. It bodes well for similar possibilities for other Ancestries (reduced armor penalties on Dwarves, for example) also being built in. Sadly, whether humans have something of the sort is unknown due to glare.

It's also worth noting that Barbarian and Ranger Dedications seem to grant no weapons or armor at all, instead granting Rage and Hunt Prey at-will. That's interesting.


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Kubetz wrote:
If anyone wants to watch the interview, here is the LINK.

Those pages at 05:10:18 left me intrigued, as there's a green dragon in one of them and a collection of portraits in the other. What might that be talking about? The portraits might be illustrations of important figures of the Inner Sea, maybe?


Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'll note that Halflings now get Keen Eyes for free on top of their other Ancestry stuff (Heritage and Ancestry Feat). That's great. An excellent solution to them being underpowered otherwise compared to Goblins getting Darkvision and the like. It bodes well for similar possibilities for other Ancestries (reduced armor penalties on Dwarves, for example) also being built in. Sadly, whether humans have something of the sort is unknown due to glare.

It's also worth noting that Barbarian and Ranger Dedications seem to grant no weapons or armor at all, instead granting Rage and Hunt Prey at-will. That's interesting.

Halflings got Keen Senses by default by the end of the playtest though, right?

I think I like the direction the martial dedications are going. It reduces some of the overlap between the archetypes while making them more attractive to other martial characters. In the playtest casters got way more for dipping into fighter than a barbarian did, for example.


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Captain Morgan wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:

I'll note that Halflings now get Keen Eyes for free on top of their other Ancestry stuff (Heritage and Ancestry Feat). That's great. An excellent solution to them being underpowered otherwise compared to Goblins getting Darkvision and the like. It bodes well for similar possibilities for other Ancestries (reduced armor penalties on Dwarves, for example) also being built in. Sadly, whether humans have something of the sort is unknown due to glare.

It's also worth noting that Barbarian and Ranger Dedications seem to grant no weapons or armor at all, instead granting Rage and Hunt Prey at-will. That's interesting.

Halflings got Keen Senses by default by the end of the playtest though, right?

I think I like the direction the martial dedications are going. It reduces some of the overlap between the archetypes while making them more attractive to other martial characters. In the playtest casters got way more for dipping into fighter than a barbarian did, for example.

Rogue, ranger, and barbarian dedications are all interesting, but fighter dedication is pretty much a waste for martial characters.

Liberty's Edge

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Captain Morgan wrote:
Halflings got Keen Senses by default by the end of the playtest though, right?

You're right, stuff from 1.6 just keeps slipping my mind...

It's still nice to see that this has stayed.

Captain Morgan wrote:
I think I like the direction the martial dedications are going. It reduces some of the overlap between the archetypes while making them more attractive to other martial characters. In the playtest casters got way more for dipping into fighter than a barbarian did, for example.

Yeah, it's nice to see that Fighter/Barbarian has some reasons for existing and the like.

citricking wrote:
Rogue, ranger, and barbarian dedications are all interesting, but fighter dedication is pretty much a waste for martial characters.

True. You can always dabble in something else, though.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
I think I like the direction the martial dedications are going. It reduces some of the overlap between the archetypes while making them more attractive to other martial characters. In the playtest casters got way more for dipping into fighter than a barbarian did, for example.

Yeah, the fact that it's now reasonable for the various martial classes to dip into another martial class is pretty cool (although dipping into fighter is of limited value for anyone who already has martial weapon proficiency until you pick up a second Fighter feat).


Classes like Barbarian, Paladin, and Ranger are already conceptually basically Fighter+, so it makes sense they don't really gain much from Fighter multiclass.

Liberty's Edge

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On the other hand, Classes that don't gain Martial Weapons benefit disproportionately from Fighter, which is actually kind of neat. A Fighter/Wizard has a bit more of an existing thematic niche than a Ranger/Wizard, so it's nice that there are incentives to do it that way.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:
On the other hand, Classes that don't gain Martial Weapons benefit disproportionately from Fighter, which is actually kind of neat. A Fighter/Wizard has a bit more of an existing thematic niche than a Ranger/Wizard, so it's nice that there are incentives to do it that way.

I don't disagree about the thematic weight, but I do think it's a little unfortunate that it's pretty impractical for many types of characters to dip into fighter from Sorcerer or Wizard due to the lack of armor proficiency.

Unless the Armor Proficiency feat has changed from the playtest you're only getting 1 level of armor proficiency in return for a level 1 general feat. That's fine if you're trying to build a DEX based character, but it doesn't work at all for a STR based one. For that you're REALLY incentivized to go Sorcerer with a dip into Champion (and either a Weapon Proficiency general feat or one of the Weapon Familiarity ancestry feats).

Now you can still build plenty of characters via Wizard (or Sorcerer) with a Fighter multiclass feat, like nimble arcane duelists or especially archers (who may not care about armor proficiency at all), but we're probably pretty far from doing a heavy armor STR based Gish as a Wizard with a Fighter dip.


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rooneg wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
On the other hand, Classes that don't gain Martial Weapons benefit disproportionately from Fighter, which is actually kind of neat. A Fighter/Wizard has a bit more of an existing thematic niche than a Ranger/Wizard, so it's nice that there are incentives to do it that way.

I don't disagree about the thematic weight, but I do think it's a little unfortunate that it's pretty impractical for many types of characters to dip into fighter from Sorcerer or Wizard due to the lack of armor proficiency.

Unless the Armor Proficiency feat has changed from the playtest you're only getting 1 level of armor proficiency in return for a level 1 general feat. That's fine if you're trying to build a DEX based character, but it doesn't work at all for a STR based one. For that you're REALLY incentivized to go Sorcerer with a dip into Champion (and either a Weapon Proficiency general feat or one of the Weapon Familiarity ancestry feats).

Now you can still build plenty of characters via Wizard (or Sorcerer) with a Fighter multiclass feat, like nimble arcane duelists or especially archers (who may not care about armor proficiency at all), but we're probably pretty far from doing a heavy armor STR based Gish as a Wizard with a Fighter dip.

General feats could very well be stronger, though. Toughness had a little extra added to it and that feat for level to untrained skills is crazy good. (Not that I'd count on it for armor.)

Champion requiring two stats is what really makes it hard. Bard/Champion does have a lot of synergy though.


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Making a viable melee wizard will be hard. An elf can start with 16 str 14 Dex and 18 int but will be stuck with light armor until level 7. Really won't be able to have strong spells and melee, so should leave int at 12. A human is best, because they can have medium armor by level 3. Boosting two bad stats (str and int) is tough on their defences.

Human wizard MC fighter
Str 16 Dex 14 con 12 int 16
1 light armor
2 fighter dedication
3 medium armor

So it comes online at level 3. Is best and quite nice from 5-9 because of the flawed stat system.

Need a new class like the magus to really have viable spells and melee from level 1.


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citricking wrote:

Making a viable melee wizard will be hard. An elf can start with 16 str 14 Dex and 18 int but will be stuck with light armor until level 7. Really won't be able to have strong spells and melee, so should leave int at 12. A human is best, because they can have medium armor by level 3. Boosting two bad stats (str and int) is tough on their defences.

Human wizard MC fighter
Str 16 Dex 14 con 12 int 16
1 light armor
2 fighter dedication
3 medium armor

So it comes online at level 3. Is best and quite nice from 5-9 because of the flawed stat system.

Need a new class like the magus to really have viable spells and melee from level 1.

I think "viable" might be being misused here. Back at the start of the Playtest my chapter 1 Doomsday Dawn party featured a Sorcerer with Fighter Dedication and he was one of the better party members, good with both melee and spells. He wasn't up to the Dex cap for his armor but in practice it wasn't a serious problem at all. With the changes we've seen he'd be even better because he can use ranged spells better with casting mod for spell attacks instead of Dex.

TL;DR we can already make a "viable" melee and spells build with our current tools, and it looks like we have altogether better tools in the final version.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Oh, thank heavens, the art isn't like the iconic art that was shown. Maybe I will buy the game after all.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm not sure how necessary medium or heavy armor is, nor how inaccessible it is. It could be a problem, but it's hard to tell without more detailed information.

We'll need to at the very least see the defensive spells and other magical options in that vein before definitively stating anything in regards to the necessity of frontline casters having armor, I think.


Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
dmerceless wrote:

Jason and Erik did an interview at games UK Expo. The interview itself wasn't very spoiler-y, but they did flip through book pages. I took the time to capture the best frames where the lighting lets you see each part of the pages with a video editor and put them all HERE.

PS: Yes, I have a lot of free time and not a lot of sanity.

Thank you for posting!


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Pathfinder Card Game, Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I think the full page art for the classes is fantastic and a really smart way to instantly provide the idea of the class to the reader.


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Halfling feats look much improved. Unfettered makes you treat Break Grapple/Escape success as a critical success, and when creatures fail to Grapple them it is treated as a critical failure. Both ends of the crit spectrum allow the halfling to reverse the grapple or knock them prone. Halfling judo masters! On top of that, it makes the Grab monster ability no longer an auto-success.

If I'm reading Titan Slinger right it improves all sling shots against Large+ creatures by one damage die step. Assuming the slingstaff is unchanged, that makes it a d12 reload 1 weapon against lots of things.

Watchful Halfling gives you an automatic secret check to notice if someone is Enchanted, which can be quite useful.

Unfortunately I can't read the higher level Halfling feats.

Goblins get some awesome mobility options at 9th-- a Climb speed is excellent for that level and Skittering Skuttle seems like it will really let you move around the battlefield. City Scanvenger has been upgraded to let you earn income by finding thrown out scraps at the same time as you subsist, which seems flavorful and appropriate.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

This is incredible. Thanks, dmerceless!

Things I particularly like here: (1) the multiple sample builds for each class—the Alchemist shows a build for each research field; (2) the page layouts and all of the art—I continue to be very impressed with how the book looks


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I'm a little disappointed animal companions still seem to be feat chains. I hope they are at least a little more durable than the playtest. However, they do look a little easier to build-- the animals now list all of their starting stat mods, instead of having to do it piece meal like before.

Bards have a new composition cantrip called Inspire Defense. Versatile Performance now lets them use their Performance proficiency to qualify for any Charisma skill feat, which is dope.

It looks very much like spontaneous heightening has been replaced by "signature spells." No idea how it differs yet, and I'm having a little trouble reading the "Versatile Signature" feat. It looks like it says you can swap a Signature spell for a different spell of the same level in your repertoire during daily preparations. That implies you don't get to switch it up daily anymore by defauly, so perhaps you get one signature spell per spell level but it is a permanent* decision? (*I'm sure you could swap it at level up or retrain it though.)

Familiars got a whole bunch of new powers, including a couple Alchemy ones, which are cool. Gonna be hard to choose which powers to give it every day.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Captain Morgan wrote:
It looks very much like spontaneous heightening has been replaced by "signature spells." No idea how it differs yet, and I'm having a little trouble reading the "Versatile Signature" feat. It looks like it says you can swap a Signature spell for a different spell of the same level in your repertoire during daily preparations. That implies you don't get to switch it up daily anymore by defauly, so perhaps you get one signature spell per spell level but it is a permanent* decision? (*I'm sure you could swap it at level up or retrain it though.)

Here you go:

Versatile Signature (Feat 4)
Prerequisites polymath muse
While most bards are known for certain signature performances and spells, you're always tweaking your available repertoire. When you make your daily preparations, you can change one of your signature spells to a different spell of that level from your repertoire.


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tqomins wrote:
Captain Morgan wrote:
It looks very much like spontaneous heightening has been replaced by "signature spells." No idea how it differs yet, and I'm having a little trouble reading the "Versatile Signature" feat. It looks like it says you can swap a Signature spell for a different spell of the same level in your repertoire during daily preparations. That implies you don't get to switch it up daily anymore by defauly, so perhaps you get one signature spell per spell level but it is a permanent* decision? (*I'm sure you could swap it at level up or retrain it though.)

Here you go:

Versatile Signature (Feat 4)
Prerequisites polymath muse
While most bards are known for certain signature performances and spells, you're always tweaking your available repertoire. When you make your daily preparations, you can change one of your signature spells to a different spell of that level from your repertoire.

Yup, that's about what I thought. Gonna stick to my theory then.


Looking at the cleric, they only get Weapon Specialization at 13th, whereas Barbarians get greater at 15th (and regular at 7th, I'm guessing). I also see Cleric Alertness at 5 (compared to Alchemists's 3?), and lightning reflexes at 11. I also see "divine defense" at 13, but unless that's the Will version of evasion, clerics appear to be much more fragile save-wise than martials.

I think we can guess Barbarian gets Juggernaut at 7 or thereabouts, and Indomitable Will at 15 from what we've seen. Alchemist gets Juggernaut at 11, and Evasion at 15. Cleric gets *maybe* Will at 15, but otherwise doesn't have any success -> crit things on saves.
Sets up an interesting setup where casters are quite fragile on saves in exchange for all those spells.


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Per #MyPathfinderSpoiler 46, Clerics get Will at level 9 through the Resolve class feature.

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