Guide 6.0 released


Pathfinder Adventure Card Society

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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The Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild Guide 5.0 has been updated to become the Pathfinder Adventure Card Society Guide 6.0.

The rules in this version of the Guide went into effect on Friday, May 23, with one exception: Existing campaigns do not need to begin using the rules from the new Core Set until August 1. You can get a PDF of the rulebook here: (3.0 MB zip/PDF)

The most significant change is that "After the Scenario" has been rewritten to clarify timing of events and to better integrate with the Core Set rulebook. It includes significant changes to the reward structure and character advancement, including the introduction of experience points to aid tracking advancement within a tier. Also, you may now advance tiers after 3 scenarios instead of 4.

Don’t miss the Character Conversion sidebar on page 5!

Other changes include:

• "Pathfinder Society Adventure Card Guild" (PFSACG) renamed "Pathfinder Adventure Card Society" (PACS)
• Incorporated terminology changes from Core Set (Vault, #, etc.)
• Reorganized presentation of information
• Updated URLs
• Updated Finding a Game section
• Updated Community Standards Policy
• Clarified that replay reward restrictions are applied per character, not per player
• Modified rules for creating higher-tiered characters (they now get some feats)
• Changed transferring rewards when "taking one for the team."
• Added conversion rules for characters created under previous editions of the Guide
• Clarified that only Class Decks and Character Decks can be added to Ultimate Add-On Decks (not other Ultimate Add-On Decks)
• Clarified that Iconic Heroes promo cards depend on the class of the character, not the class of the deck
• Updated rules regarding cards named on the backs of character cards to support using Estra and Honaire from Mummy's Mask with Occult Adventures 1
• Added decks for Hakon, Kess, Quinn, Crimsi, Grenek, Nok-Nok, Pizazz, and Siathorn
• Added optional challenge modes
• Clarified that you have to exchange "remove from the game"-activated boons even if you don't encounter them
• Clarified Redeeming cards
• Replaced die bumps with hero points
• Added standardized rules to simplify future loot rewards
• Revised "accessory perk" rules for additional clarity
• Revised Retail Incentive Program's "Recover from Wounds" benefit to use the new standard heal power (shuffling the card instead of recharging it)
• Added new role name, "table coordinators," for people who manage a single table (as distinguished from event coordinators, who handle event logistics)
• Filling Out Chronicle Sheets has been revised substantially (Of particular note: The example used to describe opting out of a reward, but the rules have never actually offered that option)
• Rules for converting Season 0 characters have been adjusted to account for the new reward structure
• Revised Chronicle sheet

Note that the new Guide does NOT contain detailed conversion information for using older cards and scenarios with the new rules. Those will be posted as an FAQ in the near future. (I recommend using the Mummy's Mask rules until that's published.)

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Also, there's a new rule we'd like you to test in the coming weeks. If it goes well, we'll codify it in a future Guide update.

• If your Class Deck contains a boon that has the same name as a boon in the Core Set or in Curse of the Crimson Throne, you may replace the copy in your deck with the new version. Do not take cards from the vault for this—you must bring your own copies. (Short Sword and Shortsword count as the same name for this purpose.)

This rule is legal for PACS play until further notice.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:

Also, there's a new rule we'd like you to test in the coming weeks. If it goes well, we'll codify it in a future Guide update.

• If your Class Deck contains a boon that has the same name as a boon in the Core Set or in Curse of the Crimson Throne, you may replace the copy in your deck with the new version. Do not take cards from the vault for this—you must bring your own copies. (Short Sword and Shortsword count as the same name for this purpose.)

This rule is legal for PACS play until further notice.

This is overwhelmingly appreciated, and a genuine surprise to me.

Can we infer that several other cards with almost identical names can be replaced? I think that Elven Curveblade (Warpriest Class Deck) is almost identically reprinted as Elven Curve Blade in Curse of the Crimson Throne, though I've not been able to confirm that I'm recalling these names perfectly yet.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

It's "Elven Curve Blade" in both products. Short Sword and Shortsword is the only deliberately unmatched pair that I'm aware of, but if you find any more, let me know.


I saw the class deck call outs for Hakon, Kess, and Quinn which is fantastic. I also saw the assignment for the goblin fights/burns for all the goblins from the upcoming Free RPG day adventure which was doubly appreciated! However, I was curious about Fumbus since he seems to be the current odd Core/CotCT "man" out.

Silver Crusade *****

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Rhynn Davrie wrote:
I saw the class deck call outs for Hakon, Kess, and Quinn which is fantastic. I also saw the assignment for the goblin fights/burns for all the goblins from the upcoming Free RPG day adventure which was doubly appreciated! However, I was curious about Fumbus since he seems to be the current odd Core/CotCT "man" out.

He’s an alchemist, so he can be played with the alchemist deck.


Vic Wertz wrote:
If your Class Deck contains a boon that has the same name as a boon in the Core Set or in Curse of the Crimson Throne, you may replace the copy in your deck with the new version.

I'm in an online campaign, and I have a copy of Immolate in my hand. Can I replace it immediately? Should I wait until the start of the next scenario?

Thanks.

Note: We're using the old rules. I can still replace it, or do we have to switch to the new Core rules first?

Silver Crusade ** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 aka cartmanbeck

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wkover wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
If your Class Deck contains a boon that has the same name as a boon in the Core Set or in Curse of the Crimson Throne, you may replace the copy in your deck with the new version.

I'm in an online campaign, and I have a copy of Immolate in my hand. Can I replace it immediately? Should I wait until the start of the next scenario?

Thanks.

Note: We're using the old rules. I can still replace it, or do we have to switch to the new Core rules first?

I would think you'd have to switch to the new ruleset before you can do so, since the old rules don't have a Recovery step, just as one example.


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One interesting thing to note in the new Guide, the following updated sentence (p.8):

-You can replace your character with any character of the
same class, along with a matching role card.

In the previous guide this was limited to characters from the Base sets and Character add-on decks.

This means you can now use, for example, Varian from the Pathfinder Tales deck with the Hell's Vengeance 2 deck. So many more possibilities!

The Pathfinder Tales deck can now be used with a whopping 28 characters!

Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka zeroth_hour

Vic Wertz wrote:

Also, there's a new rule we'd like you to test in the coming weeks. If it goes well, we'll codify it in a future Guide update.

• If your Class Deck contains a boon that has the same name as a boon in the Core Set or in Curse of the Crimson Throne, you may replace the copy in your deck with the new version. Do not take cards from the vault for this—you must bring your own copies. (Short Sword and Shortsword count as the same name for this purpose.)

This rule is legal for PACS play until further notice.

Do we use the level of the Core/Curse boon when we replace it? I assume yes. This matters for a few characters (eg Feiya)

If I have 2 copies of a card in my deck (eg Wizard class deck has 2 Force Missiles), do I need 2 extra Core sets to replace both? If I have 2 extra Core Sets, can I do this?

Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka zeroth_hour

I also assume things like Deathbane Light Crossbow +1 (old sets) and Deathbane Light Crossbow are equivalent. It's not immediately obvious so we should make that clear.

Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka zeroth_hour

In addition, I assume that the old level of the card will be used for determining things like whether it's eligible to be put into your deck or be taken as an upgrade. This will be a tad confusing though.


Vic Wertz wrote:

Also, there's a new rule we'd like you to test in the coming weeks. If it goes well, we'll codify it in a future Guide update.

• If your Class Deck contains a boon that has the same name as a boon in the Core Set or in Curse of the Crimson Throne, you may replace the copy in your deck with the new version. Do not take cards from the vault for this—you must bring your own copies. (Short Sword and Shortsword count as the same name for this purpose.)

This rule is legal for PACS play until further notice.

That might help mitigate some of the errata/adjustments, but I see an issue. This could lead to trouble with Core sets getting mixed up during cleanup. Players will need to be careful that they reset their decks and put the cards back where they came from. It's not hard to spot class deck and non-class deck cards, but this'll result in situations where multiple copies of a Core card could be in a deck after play, from different boxes.

I'm not entirely going to be a Negative Nancy. I like that we can now just toss our Iconic Heroes Promos into class decks. Overall, I'm liking the streamlining of how post-game and leveling is handled. There are some characters that really need to get a power feat to work well (Varril being a good example) and slogging through 2 scenarios for the first feat was a pain.


While I'm thinking about Scenario Guide rules, could we get an official policy for making character changes. There isn't a rule that restricts a player from changing feats around or swapping equivalent tier cards between sessions. The reporting sheets don't worry too heavily with the specifics so it looks like there's nothing wrong with doing so. I only really have to worry about this sort of thing when tearing down and rebuilding characters when I use my class decks for demos and the like, but there have been times when a feat just wasn't what I'd thought it was and it's a waste. It'd be nice if there was something official about it.

Silver Crusade ** RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 aka cartmanbeck

Earl_Parvisjam wrote:
While I'm thinking about Scenario Guide rules, could we get an official policy for making character changes. There isn't a rule that restricts a player from changing feats around or swapping equivalent tier cards between sessions. The reporting sheets don't worry too heavily with the specifics so it looks like there's nothing wrong with doing so. I only really have to worry about this sort of thing when tearing down and rebuilding characters when I use my class decks for demos and the like, but there have been times when a feat just wasn't what I'd thought it was and it's a waste. It'd be nice if there was something official about it.

You can't be switching your feats around or trading boons of the same level Willy nilly. That's just part of the main rules of the game, it doesn't need to be stated in the guide. Once you choose a feat or a deck upgrade, you are stuck with that one until something gives you the chance to change it.

Venture-Lieutenant, Washington—Seattle aka zeroth_hour

As it turns out, the substitution policy won't work (I think) on a few cards that are almost the same name:

-Keen Rapier in the Bard etc class deck is a +3 enchantment, while the Keen Rapier in the Core Set is a +1 enchantment.
-Seeking Shortbow in the Inquisitor etc class deck is a +2 enchantment, while the Seeking Shortbow in the Core Set is a +1 enchantment.
-Frost Longbow in the Ranger etc class deck is a +1 enchantment, while it's unclear what the Frost Longbow in the Core Set is. Is it a valid substitution?
-Shock Glaive in the Fighter etc class deck has a similar problem to the above.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

(The following is all my opinion, but it all follows the same tone of "treat the rule we've been given as gospel, as-written, and don't try to extend it".)

Jonathan Ng wrote:
I also assume things like Deathbane Light Crossbow +1 (old sets) and Deathbane Light Crossbow are equivalent. It's not immediately obvious so we should make that clear.
Jonathan Ng wrote:
As it turns out, the substitution policy won't work (I think) on a few cards that are almost the same name [...]

Yes, I was coming across a few of those. This pretty much only affects weapons, but it does effect a lot. Some you didn't mention include...

Flaming Mace +1
Allying Dart +1
Returning Throwing Axe +1

And I'm certain there are others.

As you pointed out, there's an issue here, though. Saying a blanket rule of "Ignore +X at the end of a card's name" would cause unintended issues. Seeking Shortbow (+2) is a great example, since the actual card is usually an AD4 weapon with several beneficial powers, whilst the Core Set one is a much simpler Level 1 weapon.

It does mean that this rule, as-written, is MUCH less helpful for weapons than any other card type (in particular, it stops functioning on weapons above AD0, generally). This particularly impacts players who want to use Acrobatics or Stealth weapons with the help of the Core Set cards.

Buuut... weapons are probably one of the card types least effected overall in playing old boons with new core cards. They're not known to offer much check support besides being used (and the Transition Guide covers spells and weapons doing that specifically anyway), and their power levels aren't particularly disparate. Some of the most powerful pre-Core endgame weapons are certainly more powerful than the endgame Curse weapons, anyhow.

In short: I think it's fair to treat the RAW as gospel. Seeking Shortbow +2 is not the same as Seeking Shortbow. It means substitutions of higher-level weapons is pretty much always impossible, but I don't think this is a meaningful issue for Society play - the most effected are Rogues who really want to push the use of Stealth in combat with their Class Deck (which will stop working after a couple of Adventures).

So no, Deathbane Light Crossbow +1 (despite being almost identical to Deathbane Light Crossbow), cannot be replaced. it's just too much of a headache to allow as a blanket rule, and the current wording already forbids that.

Jonathan Ng wrote:
In addition, I assume that the old level of the card will be used for determining things like whether it's eligible to be put into your deck or be taken as an upgrade. This will be a tad confusing though.

I would disagree - I would say if you replace a card you should replace the entire card. If you want to switch a card out of your Class Deck with a new one of a higher level, that's your call to make. If it's already in your deck, then replacing it might cause you to have an illegal deck and you'd have to remove it because it exceeds your character level.

There's probably at least one card that is much more powerful post-core than it ever was pre-Core, and letting you ignore AD#s could just cause issues. I can't think of one right now, mind.

Jonathan Ng wrote:
If I have 2 copies of a card in my deck (eg Wizard class deck has 2 Force Missiles), do I need 2 extra Core sets to replace both? If I have 2 extra Core Sets, can I do this?

I'd say, sadly, yes you'd need 2 physical Core boons. Otherwise, if you're taking your Class Deck (with replaced cards) somewhere you'll have to make proxies somehow. Hey, even one Core Force Missile is better than none.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Shnik wrote:

One interesting thing to note in the new Guide, the following updated sentence (p.8):

-You can replace your character with any character of the
same class, along with a matching role card.

In the previous guide this was limited to characters from the Base sets and Character add-on decks.

This means you can now use, for example, Varian from the Pathfinder Tales deck with the Hell's Vengeance 2 deck. So many more possibilities!

The Pathfinder Tales deck can now be used with a whopping 28 characters!

I missed this, this is HUGE!

That changes my plans for characters in a major way, right now! AWESOME!

I might also have to go back and amend my cut-short review of Varril, now that he can use Hell's Vengeance 2.

I will note, however, that this obsoletes the 4-5 reward of being able to use Darago with Hell's Vengeance 2, so that sucks. Especially for those BRing that season who will have to explain to their players that Adventure 5 effectively doesn't have a reward anymore.

Shadow Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

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Jonathan Ng wrote:
If I have 2 copies of a card in my deck (eg Wizard class deck has 2 Force Missiles), do I need 2 extra Core sets to replace both? If I have 2 extra Core Sets, can I do this?

I'd suggest that requiring somebody to purchase a $50 set simply to upgrade a single card in a $20 product is already excessive.

The rule in PFS RPG play is generally that when a feat/power/whatever in an old product is superseded by different wording in a newer product, possession of the old product granted access to the newly-worded version. The player still had to provide the text of the new version, but that was normally printed in the Additional Resources (or some other freely-available document); no additional purchase was required.

I would like to see this as the model to be used in PACS.

Silver Crusade *****

John Francis wrote:
Jonathan Ng wrote:
If I have 2 copies of a card in my deck (eg Wizard class deck has 2 Force Missiles), do I need 2 extra Core sets to replace both? If I have 2 extra Core Sets, can I do this?

I'd suggest that requiring somebody to purchase a $50 set simply to upgrade a single card in a $20 product is already excessive.

The rule in PFS RPG play is generally that when a feat/power/whatever in an old product is superseded by different wording in a newer product, possession of the old product granted access to the newly-worded version. The player still had to provide the text of the new version, but that was normally printed in the Additional Resources (or some other freely-available document); no additional purchase was required.

I would like to see this as the model to be used in PACS.

I think there are a couple of differences between PFS rewording and what is the case here. First, usually in PFS, players are required to use the new version of a rule, whereas in PACS, you are perfectly allowed to use your old cards. Secondly and relatedly, usually the changes in PFS are nerfs, whereas for the most part, Core cards are upgrades over class deck cards. Given this, I don’t think a buy-in to use the new cards is unwarranted.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Earl_Parvisjam wrote:
This could lead to trouble with Core sets getting mixed up during cleanup. Players will need to be careful that they reset their decks and put the cards back where they came from. It's not hard to spot class deck and non-class deck cards, but this'll result in situations where multiple copies of a Core card could be in a deck after play, from different boxes.

It does require some extra care, but a similar situation already exists when more than one character is using the same class deck.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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We'll discuss your feedback, but for now, treat the rule as written.

Answering specific questions, that currently means:
• The name must match exactly (with the sole listed exception: Short Sword/Shortsword).
• You're replacing the card as a whole—if this would make your deck illegal because the replacement card's level would exceed your tier, you can't make the swap until you're allowed to put cards of that level into your deck. (You do NOT have to spend upgrades to unlock them, though—as long as the old card was legal and the new card is legal, you may make the change at your leisure.
• You have to bring your own copies of the cards, regardless of quantity needed.

As for timing, you may do this whenever you like in between scenarios... except that if the new card uses a new rule, and you're still using the old rules, you'll need to wait until you switch to the new rules.

I hope to have the conversion FAQ up by the end of the week.

Venture-Agent, Online—ACG aka MorkXII

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I have a few questions about the swapping in of Core/Curse cards.

Am I swapping cards into my character deck, or into my class deck?

Once they've been added to my deck, are they permanently there? Can I revert back to the original cards still? (Maybe my Core box wasn't in use at the time I made the swap, but now I want to start using it for a new game.)

Related to both questions: I'm a Tier 6 Monk and I have Confusion (Monk CD-6) in my deck. The Core version works nicely against barriers and allies, so I swap in the Core-0 version instead. But something caused me to banish it. We're processing deck upgrades now, and there are no Spell 6s available. Is the Core-0 version now permanently in my class deck, meaning I I can re-add it? Or is the Monk CD-6 card still the card that is in my class deck, meaning that it is impossible to use it to fill an empty slot?
Or the opposite scenario: I'm playing a Tier 1 Witch and I had swapped out by Fox (Witch CD-B) for Fox (Core-1). Nice free upgrade for characters that care about the level of their cards. But I had to banish it, and there are no ally deck upgrades available. Can I re-add the Witch CD-B card (its Basic) and then between scenarios swap it again to the Core-1 version? Or is the Core-1 version now permanently part of my deck, so I have to wait until Tier 3 before I can automatically take it to fill a hole in my deck?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Mark Koopman wrote:
Am I swapping cards into my character deck, or into my class deck?

Given that you're not allowed to make your character deck illegal, and that you can swap cards between scenarios, the difference between the two seems minimal to me. Am I right that the difference would only matter if an effect happens during a scenario that allows you to use a card from your box that isn't in your deck? Even then, I don't see a reason to disallow the swapped card. More importantly, I'd say that letting you do all the swaps you're ever going to do at one time is the most advantageous for the most players, so I'd go with "your Class Deck." (Unless I'm missing something...)

Mark Koopman wrote:
Once they've been added to my deck, are they permanently there?

You've played a lot more PACS than I have—I'd like to hear what you think. (This is a kind of playtest, after all...)

*

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Would it be better to do this like the other Substitution effects?

- Swap cards in at the start of the Scenario.
- Old cards have to be in your character deck.
- New cards are only eligible if they fit within the Tier limit.
- Anything that happens to the swapped card happens to the card it replaced.
- At the end of the Scenario, you put everything back before doing upgrades.

In practice you wouldn't do a bunch of swapping every game, but if there is a rebuilding issue you would know that your deck always consists of the old cards.

Venture-Agent, Online—ACG aka MorkXII

Vic Wertz wrote:
Given that you're not allowed to make your character deck illegal, and that you can swap cards between scenarios, the difference between the two seems minimal to me. Am I right that the difference would only matter if an effect happens during a scenario that allows you to use a card from your box that isn't in your deck?

I think the main reason why it would matter if the Core card is in your class deck is that it changes when you have access to the cards. The lower the level of the card, the easier it is to get into your character deck. The Monk CD is the most extreme example of this, with Cure, Detect Magic, and Confusion moving from AD 3, 5, and 6 all the way to 0. If the Core card becomes part of your class deck, monks can take a spell feat at Tier 1 and start using those spells. If the original card is still technically in the class deck, they still need to wait until Tier 3/5/6 before they can take the spell, and then swap it for Core version.

If the intent is that you still have to wait until Tier 3/5/6 to use those spells, then that is effectively answering my question (Core cards are not in your class deck).

Another minor example is something that has already occurred in one of the games that is about to get started for Cards Against Gnomanity: A player was going to build his starting deck with Archer (Core-0), but the Archer from his class deck (Rogue-B) has the Elite trait. Both cards are legal for his deck. If the Core-0 card is in his class deck, he could probably start the game with it. If the original Elite card is in his class deck, he can't.

I think I like what Parody is suggesting. The Core swap works like (and happens at the same time as) the Loot swap - you swap it in at the beginning of the scenario, and out again at the end, but with the additional requirement that you can't swap in a Core card with a level higher than your Tier. That would be a technicality since the cards are owned by the player and don't need to go back in the game box. But I think it would also clarify a number of things:

  • Your starting deck still gets built exclusively from your character deck cards, but you can swap in a legal Core deck immediately afterwards (Witches get their level 1 Fox, Rogues don't get their level 0 Archer).
  • Monks still need to wait until Tier 3 to get a cure.
  • If I don't want to (or can't) use a Core card any more, I can just use the original card.
  • My first question (added to class or character deck) becomes irrelevant
  • MY second question (can you switch back to the old card) gets answered in the way that is most flexible for players.


  • Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
    Parody wrote:

    Would it be better to do this like the other Substitution effects?

    - Swap cards in at the start of the Scenario.
    - Old cards have to be in your character deck.
    - New cards are only eligible if they fit within the Tier limit.
    - Anything that happens to the swapped card happens to the card it replaced.
    - At the end of the Scenario, you put everything back before doing upgrades.

    In practice you wouldn't do a bunch of swapping every game, but if there is a rebuilding issue you would know that your deck always consists of the old cards.

    I don't like handling it like other Substitution effects in the way you suggest, due to various side-effects about Levels/AD#s.

    In some cases, it lets you cheat deck upgrades in some way... but as far as I can tell, only by 1 or 2 levels/AD#s at most, so not a huge deal, probably. The biggest jump I could find at a glance was Wolverine (now Level 3, usually AD1).

    In other cases, it renders Core replacement cards virtually pointless because they replace cards that are normally of a MUCH higher level. If I'm an Oracle, I have to wait until AD6 to legally add Fortune-Teller to my deck (an AD6 card in the Oracle Class Deck), which gives me the ability to...

    ...replace it with the (weaker) Level 2 Fortune Teller from Curse of the Crimson Throne. That renders that ally replacement irrelevant, but it would be relevant if it gave you access to a (mostly) weaker version of that ally a few adventures early. This mostly turns up with allies (such as Pit Gladiator, for another example), and some spells.

    ================

    Personally, I like Vic's rule of you switch them physically out of your Class Deck. If they happen to be in your Character Deck - hey, they're instantly replaced in your deck (assuming you can legally take them), good for you! Same with the Unconventional Firepower boon where you keep swapping out what gun you've added to your class deck (and, by extension, character deck).

    I don't think the rare situation that you'll escalate the level of a card by 1 (or 2, in a couple of cases) is a big issue. But I do suggest that once you've replaced a card with its Core/Curse equivalent, you cannot replace them back. This saves players from exploiting certain corner-cases, but it also nicely prevents Monks from suddenly rendering themselves with a fully illegal character if they take a Spell Card Feat and then swap out a low-level spell given to them by Core/Curse replacement. It's also just a lot easier for everyone to track, in my opinion - swapping them on a scenario-by-scenario basis like Loot sounds like too much extra overhead, in my opinion.


    Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
    Mark Koopman wrote:
    Another minor example is something that has already occurred in one of the games that is about to get started for Cards Against Gnomanity: A player was going to build his starting deck with Archer (Core-0), but the Archer from his class deck (Rogue-B) has the Elite trait. Both cards are legal for his deck. If the Core-0 card is in his class deck, he could probably start the game with it. If the original Elite card is in his class deck, he can't.

    To my understanding, he cannot build his starting deck with either (unless he'd otherwise not have enough allies) - neither has the Basic trait. The Card Guild Guide Hierarchy specifically still says you have to build with level 0 basics before simple deck 0 cards (obviously, it instead refers to "B" cards, but the point still stands).

    I don't see a way to read the Card Guild Guide to suggest that a level 0 Core boon is a valid starting boon, unless you make ALL level 0 cards (including non-basic Bs from Class Decks) legal starting cards. In which case the argument is moot and both Archers are allowed to be used to start with.

    The Transition Guide cannot possibly adjust this - it just says to treat Level 0 cards as basics for the purposes of effects, not rules. Even if it did apply here, if we apply all of the Transition Guide practices here (all old B/C/P cards are Level 0 now, all Level 0 cards are basic) then that means, as I said, that all AD0 cards are now fair starting cards.

    Mark Koopman wrote:
  • Your starting deck still gets built exclusively from your character deck cards, but you can swap in a legal Core deck immediately afterwards (Witches get their level 1 Fox, Rogues don't get their level 0 Archer).
  • Monks still need to wait until Tier 3 to get a cure.
  • As mentioned, I don't actually think you're correct on the first part - all Core boons, as the Card Guild Guide is written, would be illegal to build a starting deck with in most cases.

    I don't think giving Monks access to low-level Cure spells is an issue... we have Ultimate Add-On decks allowing for that, anyway.

    ==========

    As I mentioned in my previous post, I don't like this ruling because it shoots in the foot any reason to take various replacements where you're replacing a higher level card with a much lower level card - most commonly turning up in Allies.

    Venture-Agent, Online—ACG aka MorkXII

    yestance wrote:
    Mark Koopman wrote:
  • Your starting deck still gets built exclusively from your character deck cards, but you can swap in a legal Core deck immediately afterwards (Witches get their level 1 Fox, Rogues don't get their level 0 Archer).
  • Monks still need to wait until Tier 3 to get a cure.
  • As mentioned, I don't actually think you're correct on the first part - all Core boons, as the Card Guild Guide is written, would be illegal to build a starting deck with in most cases.

    I don't think giving Monks access to low-level Cure spells is an issue... we have Ultimate Add-On decks allowing for that, anyway.

  • Fox is a Basic card in the Witch deck, so the loot-type-swap would allow a Witch to get a Core Fox into her starting deck.
  • The only Monk CD spell that exists in any of the Ultimate decks is Cure, and only in Ult Magic which is a pretty unlikely pairing for a monk. I think Ult Wilderness is the only other deck with a healing spell lower than level 3 (Cauterize, AD2). You are right though, in that the Ultimate decks do give Monks access to spells in general much earlier.

    I'm not firmly stuck on the idea of treating Core cards as loot-swaps. I'm just looking for any rule that I can apply consistently. Of the Witch and Monk example I posted previously, which character can add their respective card back to their deck without a deck upgrade?

  • Venture-Agent, Online—ACG aka redeux

    So, from what I've gathered, we have two current proposals.

    1. Cards are added to class deck.
    + Potentially allows you to make use of some cards, such as Oracle can use a weaker version of Fortune Teller sooner (Oracle 6 vs Curse2). Monks could potentionally use Cure sooner (Monk 6 vs Core0)
    - If a basic card like Cure gets banished then in early AD's characters have to follow the hierarchy and would need to spend an upgrade to get this card back into their decks. Whereas if they had the class deck version of the basic card, they could get their basic cure back.
    - If you were to lose access to the Core cards, what happens to your character deck? Do you fill it in with the lowest AD, like-named class deck card? Or do you fill it in through the hierarchy? (This could happen if you were playing a home game for example and forgot to pull Lightning Touch out of Ezren's Core deck).

    2. Treat the cards as temporary loot swaps.
    + If a basic card gets banished then the lower tier characters can get it back without a deck upgrade.
    - This limits the flexibility for some class decks who were built to have certain cards access-restricted, such as Confusion being a Monk6 card and would not allow them to get that spell sooner (unless through an add-on deck).

    Between the two, I think #2 (Parody's suggestion) is the better route. Basic cards get banished, and within the current rules every character could be impacted by this. Whereas only a few characters are going to be missing out on some cards that are intentionally higher tiered in their class decks and I would say those characters haven't really "lost" anything.

    We could also try to find a compromise. I talked to Mark a bit about this and we discussed something like "You may add any Core cards to your Class Deck that share a name with a card already in your class deck, but you may never have both cards in your character deck at the same time"

    This way you have both in your class deck (but only use one of the two), if you happened to get one banished, you could still have the basic copy there. And you get to have early access for those class decks that had some cards at high tiers. It would still suffer from the issue of what happens if you lose access to the Core card, but otherwise I think it could work.

    Regardless of the solution we land on, I think there is value in a method of getting core cards into class decks.

    Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

    Race Dorsey wrote:

    We could also try to find a compromise. I talked to Mark a bit about this and we discussed something like "You may add any Core cards to your Class Deck that share a name with a card already in your class deck, but you may never have both cards in your character deck at the same time"

    This way you have both in your class deck (but only use one of the two), if you happened to get one banished, you could still have the basic copy there.

    I would hate to see somebody who owns both the old and new version of a card be forced to use one instead of the other at any point. (I'm not completely sure if your suggestion implies that or not.)

    *

    Vic Wertz wrote:
    I would hate to see somebody who owns both the old and new version of a card be forced to use one instead of the other at any point.

    If the two cards' adventure deck numbers/levels are different, then there are already points where you can only use one or the other.

    I put up the idea of doing substitution instead of replacements because it's something we've been doing for years and already know how to handle. I like the idea of reusing something we already know when possible. Even though I won't be using it myself (I don't own a Core Set and likely won't for a while, if ever) I may help run games for folks who are using it. It's hard to judge what might be best when I don't have the cards available, but brainstorming can still be useful. :)

    One downside of substitution, if your players are prone to this level of analysis, is people going through their deck at the start of each Scenario swapping cards around. In practice I expect most folks would use the same cards each time and thus just leave their deck built with the substitute cards in it.

    Our group hasn't gotten together since the Core Set came out, so I don't know what their thoughts are on the whole changeover. I would put our attitude from before PaizoCon as "cautious".

    Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

    Parody wrote:
    Vic Wertz wrote:
    I would hate to see somebody who owns both the old and new version of a card be forced to use one instead of the other at any point.
    If the two cards' adventure deck numbers/levels are different, then there are already points where you can only use one or the other.

    Good point.


    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    Yewstance wrote:
    ...if we apply all of the Transition Guide practices here (all old B/C/P cards are Level 0 now, all Level 0 cards are basic) then that means, as I said, that all AD0 cards are now fair starting cards.

    If any and all level 0 boons can be used in starting decks in a standard Core/Crimson campaign, shouldn't players be able to do the same in OP with the level 0 cards in their class deck boxes? Otherwise there would be an awkward inconsistency between OP and non-OP games.

    For CAGII, as everyone is excited about using the new cards, it might be beneficial to err on the side of whatever puts the most Core cards in the hands of the most players.* It could lead to additional Core sales, if nothing else, and it'll allow the community to test the new cards in the wild. Plus you can always tighten the reins later on.

    *Please ignore the fact that fully half of my CAGII starting deck consists of Core cards. More if you let me add an Archer. :)


    2 people marked this as a favorite.
    wkover wrote:
    If any and all level 0 boons can be used in starting decks in a standard Core/Crimson campaign, shouldn't players be able to do the same in OP with the level 0 cards in their class deck boxes?

    To be more clear, I meant that these might be the valid starting cards:

    - B cards w/ basic trait (from original class deck)
    - Level 0 cards added to class deck from Core

    Shadow Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

    I see that Quinn (from Curse) is now legal to be played with the Ultimate Equipment deck. Would it also be legal to add another deck as well? And if so, would Quinn be treated as if he were a character in the UE deck (meaning than any class deck could be added), or not (meaning that an Ultimate Add-On Deck should be used as the scond deck - presumably not another copy of UE, though)?

    Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

    Yewstance wrote:

    I don't see a way to read the Card Guild Guide to suggest that a level 0 Core boon is a valid starting boon, unless you make ALL level 0 cards (including non-basic Bs from Class Decks) legal starting cards. In which case the argument is moot and both Archers are allowed to be used to start with.

    The Transition Guide cannot possibly adjust this - it just says to treat Level 0 cards as basics for the purposes of effects, not rules. Even if it did apply here, if we apply all of the Transition Guide practices here (all old B/C/P cards are Level 0 now, all Level 0 cards are basic) then that means, as I said, that all AD0 cards are now fair starting cards.

    You are correct that that transition rule does NOT apply to the Guide. When the Guide uses the terms Basic and Elite—which it does in the Hierarchy and in the rules regarding building the vault for older sets—it is referring specifically to older cards that actually bear those words, and should be taken exactly as written.

    Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

    John Francis wrote:


    I see that Quinn (from Curse) is now legal to be played with the Ultimate Equipment deck. Would it also be legal to add another deck as well? And if so, would Quinn be treated as if he were a character in the UE deck (meaning than any class deck could be added), or not (meaning that an Ultimate Add-On Deck should be used as the scond deck - presumably not another copy of UE, though)?

    The intent is that Quinn's main deck is an Ultimate Deck, so you can add the cards from any 1 Class Deck or Character Deck (but not a Character Add-On Deck, another Ultimate Add-On Deck, or any other type of deck). (The current wording explaining that is... not ideal. Will fix. Thanks for pointing it out!)

    Shadow Lodge **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

    Thanks, Vic

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