Tips on Buffing Up the Mystic Theurge Class


Homebrew


So I've been DM'ing and wanted to create some Mystic Theurge NPCs for my game, but the class is just generally considered subpar and I don't want to bore my players with trash mobs that took too long for me to make. So I created This 5 level prestige class that would patch up the Mystic Theurge retroactively. Now, I showed one of my players the document and he is considering switching his character to become a MT.

So now I really need to know: is this custom prestige class balanced as-is, or could it use some work? What would you do differently to change it? I figured giving a spellcasting level back to each side of Mystic Theurge and keeping your caster level up would be incentive enough to get people to dip their toes into the prestige class finally. Thoughts?

Cross-posted from r/Pathfinder_RPG


You could let it advance non-spellcasting class abilities in some capacity. That would make it attractive to druids and witches and such, instead of the classic cleric/wizard combo, who don't lose too much in the way of non-spellcasting class abilities.

Giving a level of spellcasting would also help. One of the theurge's problems is that you can have as many spells as you want, but you still only get one or two every round (and quickened spells are a pain for theurges). Find ways to let the theurge out of their traditional "utility and buffing" role, maybe something like an arcanist's pool that lets you boost spell DC to compensate for lower spell levels.


It does fix the MT's main problem which is being weak from character levels 4-6 and taking too long to recover. You still need to be MAD, probably madder.

I'm not sure I understand Prodigious Spellcasting. Specifically, what does bonus spells from ability score have to do with caster level? Or is it two entirely independent things (one good, one bad) that should be in separate features?

It seems a bit odd to have the whole 5 levels worth of Diverse Training all in one go at the end. I'd have it applying throughout, from 1st level.


Mystic theurges don't have to be MAD. Sorcerer and oracle stack just fine, as do any non-oracle divine caster and empyreal bloodline sorcerer... or sorcerer and elder mythos cultist cleric...

It just takes some creativity.


Almost forgot the feyspeaker druid. That's a good one, too... especially if you've got the fey bloodline for extra synergy.


my suggestion is to just make Mystic Theurge its own class and solve the problem with access to two lists. Casting remains based on one ability score. It's simple and doesn't spam the low level spells. This also means casters can multiclass in and out of Mystic Theurge. There will have to be a trade off for access to two lists.


A caster planning to go into Mystic Alcolyte will take the 2 feats to bump spell casting from the prestige class. Well, could be 3 feats total to get both classes spell casting bumped to full progression. Which means they would be 1 CL behind a normal caster. So a 17th level cleric 1/wizard 1/MA 5/MT 10 would cast like a 16th cleric, 16th wizard with 3 feats spent.

Seems just a bit too good. Though it means giving up class abilities. Meh.

A better idea to accomplish the same flavor might be to introduce a Sorcerer Bloodline that blends arcane and divine casting.

Lamia Bloodline - You're family contains the power and curse of the Lamia race.

Class Skill: KS(Religion).
Bonus Feats: Alertness, Deceitful, Extend Spell, Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Iron Will.
Bloodline Arcana: At first level select either Cleric or Druid. When you gain new spells known you may select from the chosen list in addition to the Sorcerer list. All spells cast by the Sorcerer are considered arcane.

Bloodline Powers:
1st: Wisdom Drain(SU): The first time each round that the sorcerer strikes a foe with a melee attack, she also drains 1 point of Wisdom. A will save DC = (Cha mod + 1/2 sorcerer level + 10) is allowed to resist the wisdom drain.

3rd: Natural Shapeshifter(SU): At 3rd level any polymorph key word spells cast on the Sorcerer have their duration doubled. If the sorcerer gains Natural Armor or stats from the form the effect is increased by 1. At 11th level the increase goes up to 2.

9th: Partial Transformation(SU): At 9th level the sorcerer may undergo a partial transformation at will. As a standard action the sorcerer grows patches of scales and their eyes become more reptilian. The sorcerer gains claws (1d3 small, 1d4 medium, 1d6 large creature), a climb speed equal to ground speed, Darkvision 60', Low-light vision, and adds Shapechanger to their type.

15th: Matriarch Transformation(SU): At 15th level the sorcerer is able to transform into a Lamia Matriarch as a standard action. The transformed sorcerer's appearance doesn't dramatically change, except for the snake like additions to the sorcerer's body. The sorcerer gains abilities as if Monstrous Physique II was used for the transformation. In addition the sorcerer gains Immunity to Mind Effecting and a SR = 10 + level.

19th: Divine Revelation(EX): At 19th level the sorcerer adds 2 spells to each of his spell levels in addition to the spells he gains at this level. Also spells cast by the sorcerer may be divine if the sorcerer wishes. The sorcerer may ignore up to 25,000gp worth of material components per week for any spell that doesn't create material wealth.

Bonus spells: Charm Person(3rd), Invisibility(5th), Haste(7th), Charm Monster(9th), Monstrous Physique III (11th), Heal (13th), Regenerate (15th), Spell Immunity, Greater (17th), Wish (19th).


Whisperer in Darkness wrote:
my suggestion is to just make Mystic Theurge its own class and solve the problem with access to two lists. Casting remains based on one ability score. It's simple and doesn't spam the low level spells. This also means casters can multiclass in and out of Mystic Theurge. There will have to be a trade off for access to two lists.

So, just the Theurge, then?


GM Rednal wrote:
Whisperer in Darkness wrote:
my suggestion is to just make Mystic Theurge its own class and solve the problem...
So, just the *link to Theurge*, then?

That's an idea.


The Mystic Theurge was designed to give access to a wider selection of spells. Some of the latter classes have filled that role, making the class even less appealing. Witches and Shamans are often better choices for a mixed caster concept.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The Mystic Theurge was designed to give access to a wider selection of spells. Some of the latter classes have filled that role, making the class even less appealing. Witches and Shamans are often better choices for a mixed caster concept.

I'd say it's even more than that. According to the 3.5 handbook, a Mystic Theurge is "Blurring the line between divine and arcane", but that line is barely existent in Pathfinder anyway. With domain spells, deity specific extra Cleric spells, and Bloodline spells, even the CRB classes blur that line and can grab plenty of spells traditionally on the other side of the "devide", and classes like Witch and Shaman do it even more.

There are two hundred non-Cleric Wizard spells that are granted by domains, and over 120 non-Oracle Wizard spells granted by Mysteries. A Witch has access to literally half the Cleric spell list, and over 150 non-Wizard Cleric spells. Also, over 57% of spells on the Cleric list are also Wizard spells.

Doing some fiddling with my spreadsheet, I've compared spell access at 12th level, and found that even with Prestigious Spellcaster, MT + Mystic Acolyte would not have the largest access - Wiz1/Cle1/MA5/MT5 would have access to 1956 spells; a human or half-human Lore Shaman would have access to 2031 spells.

@Mudfoot/TheGreatWot: Most SAD MT options require using a spontaneous caster, thus delaying the MT by another level, but Seducer Witch combined with either Elder Mythos Cultist Cleric of Feyspeaker Druid allows a SAD MT at 7th level (without any prereq-cheating).

@Everyone with an interest in MT: Something I've been wondering for a while, did you start with Pathfinder, or did you play 3.x before? Because with all the options mentioned above, as someone who started with PF, I don't see the appeal at all. So I wonder, is the allure only nostalgia based, i.e. "it was cool in 3.5, so I want to play it in PF"?

Liberty's Edge

You might check out the Theurge class in the New Paths Compendium: Expanded Edition


The heck is a mystic acolyte?


blahpers wrote:
The heck is a mystic acolyte?

The OP's proposed 5-level prestige class (see the first post).


Mudfoot wrote:
blahpers wrote:
The heck is a mystic acolyte?
The OP's proposed 5-level prestige class (see the first post).

Ah, sorry, I can't view Google Docs here. That makes Derklord's post make even less sense to me, though. The proposed class change (or maybe just the original class's concept?) is bad because a hypothetical multiclass between the new version and old version would provide access to more spells?

Bury it, it's Friday and my brain is apparently fried.

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