size modifier for weapons


Rules Discussion


hello, currently im playing a large barbarian with a giant totem.
im unable to find the implications as of what damage or reach differences are there when you use a larger weapon.
will the strength modifier change from 1.5?

p.s
as of character development, what are the bonuses/losses?

thank you!


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There aren’t bonuses for scaling size. Or, rather, the bonuses are spelled out in the totem and its abilities. Small creatures also don’t take a penalty.


portaly wrote:

hello, currently im playing a large barbarian with a giant totem.

im unable to find the implications as of what damage or reach differences are there when you use a larger weapon.
will the strength modifier change from 1.5?

p.s
as of character development, what are the bonuses/losses?

thank you!

Reach i think changes when you grow to large but that's on the barbarian feat already. The damage change only happens to your rage bonus, a huge creature greatsword will deal 1d12 like the one from a small creature

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

So, a great sword for a fire giant deals the same base damage as a great sword for a human, even though it’s twice the size?


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Cellowyn wrote:
So, a great sword for a fire giant deals the same base damage as a great sword for a human, even though it’s twice the size?

No the giant gets extra damage but its in the form of a static bonus rather than more or bigger die.

Liberty's Edge

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Cellowyn wrote:
So, a great sword for a fire giant deals the same base damage as a great sword for a human, even though it’s twice the size?

Yes. The Giant likely does more damage, but it's from things inherent to the giant, not the sword.

The difference in PF1 was miniscule anyway. A Large greatsword did 3d6 to a Medium one's 2d6. 3.5 damage is such a tiny amount that it's basically purely aesthetic in most cases. It's certainly less meaningful than a PF2 Fire Giant's ability to attack as a 10 foot line to reflect his enormous sword...

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Pawns, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

F=ma

If you pick up a bigger, more massive object but are not yourself bigger and more massive, you just swing it slower and consequently produce the same amount of impact force.

Paizo Employee Designer

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Shisumo wrote:

F=ma

If you pick up a bigger, more massive object but are not yourself bigger and more massive, you just swing it slower and consequently produce the same amount of impact force.

Bingo! The unwieldy size makes it hard or impossible to swing it as efficiently as one sized for you unless you have a special ability that says that you can, and just cancelling out via no adjustments is simpler to use than putting in two rules adjustments that negated each other or something like that.


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As for a larger creature using an appropriately sized weapon, they may be swinging more mass at the same-ish speed, but why should the extra damage come from the variable weapon dice?

If we mapped damage dice to mass of the different weapon options for medium creatures I bet we're not going to see a consistent trend. Seems more realistic to capture size damage differently.


Well if you go by F=ma and keep a the same a for appropriately sized weapons than double the mass would mean double the damage, which is relatively consistent. But yes mapping damage to mass has lots of problems when considering how weapon dice work; Specially for weapons of the same size category, which might have same weight but different damage die.


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There is a sidebar on CRB page 91 which tells how to up the damage of a weapon. One of my players had an Ogre Greatsword which did 1d12+2 damage.


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Darkwynters wrote:
There is a sidebar on CRB page 91 which tells how to up the damage of a weapon. One of my players had an Ogre Greatsword which did 1d12+2 damage.

That sidebar tells you how to increase the damage die of a weapon when an effect calls to increase the damage die. Such as the fighter feat on the same page.

Nowhere does it say that increasing size increases the weapons damage die. That's a PF1 rule that didn't carry over to the playtest.

Enlarge person and the Giants Totem both give static damage bonuses instead of increasing die size.


Bardarok wrote:
Darkwynters wrote:
There is a sidebar on CRB page 91 which tells how to up the damage of a weapon. One of my players had an Ogre Greatsword which did 1d12+2 damage.

That sidebar tells you how to increase the damage die of a weapon when an effect calls to increase the damage die. Such as the fighter feat on the same page.

Nowhere does it say that increasing size increases the weapons damage die. That's a PF1 rule that didn't carry over to the playtest.

Enlarge person and the Giants Totem both give static damage bonuses instead of increasing die size.

Yeah another example is the the thing that paladins(and clerics with a feat) get in the playtest increasing the die size by one when wielding a simple weapon from their god.


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I prefer the rule for "using wrong-sized weapons" is "you can't" with the addendum of "if something tells you that you can, that ability will tell you what effect this has."

I'll also take "small characters can be effective martials" as preferable to "I can squeeze some extra damage from size modifiers."


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I prefer the rule for "using wrong-sized weapons" is "you can't" with the addendum of "if something tells you that you can, that ability will tell you what effect this has."

I'll also take "small characters can be effective martials" as preferable to "I can squeeze some extra damage from size modifiers."

Worse part was that going 1 size in the later parts of the game was huge. And going from small to medium normally was almost useless.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Thanks everyone for the information. The Titan Mauler Barbarian seems to be a little bit skewed. I do understand the F=ma argument, but this is a fantasy game. My son built a Gnome barbarian Titan Mauler that uses large weapons. We are struggling a bit to figure out how to adjust his damage in two cases:
1. Normal form when he’s Small and swinging a large sword (I’m struggling with this anyway, but rules are rules)
2. Gnome large form (he took that ability), so when he goes from Small to large, the sword becomes Huge. Would he roll extra dice in this case like a Giant would?
Just trying to work my way thru this when there are no rules outlined. I can manage, but I thought I’d check with the Hive Mind.


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I'm just hoping for some Berserk/Dark Souls style ultra greatswords down the line. I love them for style reasons.


Cellowyn wrote:

Thanks everyone for the information. The Titan Mauler Barbarian seems to be a little bit skewed. I do understand the F=ma argument, but this is a fantasy game. My son built a Gnome barbarian Titan Mauler that uses large weapons. We are struggling a bit to figure out how to adjust his damage in two cases:

1. Normal form when he’s Small and swinging a large sword (I’m struggling with this anyway, but rules are rules)
2. Gnome large form (he took that ability), so when he goes from Small to large, the sword becomes Huge. Would he roll extra dice in this case like a Giant would?
Just trying to work my way thru this when there are no rules outlined. I can manage, but I thought I’d check with the Hive Mind.

If it does not say the damage changes it does not change. It's a fluid game mechanic. And if he grows unless the ability says that he grows proportional it just stays the same.


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Cellowyn wrote:

Thanks everyone for the information. The Titan Mauler Barbarian seems to be a little bit skewed. I do understand the F=ma argument, but this is a fantasy game. My son built a Gnome barbarian Titan Mauler that uses large weapons. We are struggling a bit to figure out how to adjust his damage in two cases:

You're struggling with this because you're looking for a PF1 rule that doesn't exist in PF2. The giant totem does exactly what it says in the giant totem ability. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quote:
1. Normal form when he’s Small and swinging a large sword (I’m struggling with this anyway, but rules are rules)

In this case, it doubles your bonus damage from rage. So his damage goes from 1d12+STR+2 to 1d12+STR+4.

The only penalty to damage for being small is the gnome having an ability flaw in strength.

Quote:
2. Gnome large form (he took that ability), so when he goes from Small to large, the sword becomes Huge. Would he roll extra dice in this case like a Giant would?

No. As written, the giant stature only increases your size and reach, not damage. A giant doesn't get an extra dice anyway, just hire base damage. (Well, at least for fire giant. Not sure if that is true across the board.) If you were going to house rule a damage boost, I would encourage you to use the Enlarge spell as a reference point and increase the rage conditional bonus by +2.

Side note: We now know Rage will last for a full minute in the final version of the game, and afterwards you aren't fatigued but can't rage again for another minute. We have also been told rage powers weren't weakened to make up for this boost. So I'd consider running your son's character with those final rules. Much simpler than either of the playtest rage durations.


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Side note. I'd like it if we got an armorless barbar feat that can be mixed with giant totem, so as to allow my giant form to fight in nothing but a torn pair of purple pants. :) Actually, the unarmed strikes of the animal totem would be handy too... Some kind of cross totem/instinct feat?


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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Cellowyn wrote:

Thanks everyone for the information. The Titan Mauler Barbarian seems to be a little bit skewed. I do understand the F=ma argument, but this is a fantasy game. My son built a Gnome barbarian Titan Mauler that uses large weapons. We are struggling a bit to figure out how to adjust his damage in two cases:

1. Normal form when he’s Small and swinging a large sword (I’m struggling with this anyway, but rules are rules)
2. Gnome large form (he took that ability), so when he goes from Small to large, the sword becomes Huge. Would he roll extra dice in this case like a Giant would?
Just trying to work my way thru this when there are no rules outlined. I can manage, but I thought I’d check with the Hive Mind.

As a reminder, those are just the playtest rules, but the answer is just what it says in the abilities for using large weapons (cutting out some irrelevant/flavor stuff):

Playtest: Titan Mauler wrote:
You can use a weapon built for a Large creature if you are Small or Medium (both normally and when raging). When you are wielding such a weapon in combat, double your conditional bonus to damage rolls from raging, but you have the sluggish 1 condition because of the weapon’s unwieldy size. You can’t remove this sluggish condition or ignore its penalties by any means while you’re wielding the weapon.
Playtest: Giant's Stature wrote:

You become Large and increase your reach by 5 feet until you stop raging. You have the sluggish 1 condition while your size is increased. Your equipment grows with you. If you’re using the titan

mauler ability, your weapon’s even larger size causes it to have
the same effects as normal for that ability.

So for 1: Without raging, the larger weapon adds sluggish 1 (a penalty), and nothing else. If the gnome is raging, the rage damage bonus is doubled.

For 2: While raging and using Giant's Stature: Sluggish 1 (they don't stack), double rage damage bonus, large size (for space/other rules that interact with size), and +5 reach.

That's it. There are no inherent size change penalties or bonuses. If you think the entire set is underwhelming, feel free to find the threads in the playtest forum that largely agreed with you.

Barbarian rage works differently in the final rules, and I don't believe any particularly relevant details on the replacement for this totem (they're going to be called "instincts") has been spoiled.

Edit: Ninja'd.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Thanks again Captain Morgan and others! I can’t wait for the official rules!


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Cellowyn wrote:
Thanks again Captain Morgan and others! I can’t wait for the official rules!

No prob Bob. Also note that as the rage bonus damage increases, so does the extra damage from giant totem.

Also a note for your son: it is worth keeping a normal sized weapon on hand for when you don't want to trade accuracy for damage, such as low HP level 0 enemies. A hatchet makes an excellent choice since the barbarian's base damage offsets the low damage dice, it is an agile, and it gives you a ranged option in a pitch. Pairs very well with the bastard sword for offhand shenanigans, a la Amiri.

The other good option is using Sweep and/or Reach weapons with feats like Swipe and Cleave.

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