Crafting constructs question


Rules Questions


Just for peace of mind, I'd like to get the general consensus on a disagreement I had.

Our level 7 alchemist took Promethean Disciple and used it to make an adamantine animated object. Here are the stats for it:
Large Snake Statue (Large Animated Object) CR9
N. Large Construct
Init -1 Senses: Darkvision 60, Lowlight Vision, -5 Perception.
Defences:
AC: 20/Touch: 8/Flat: 20 (-1 Dex, +12 Natural, -1 Size)
HP: ?? (6d10+30 size)
Fort: +2/Ref: +1/Will: -3
Defensive Abilities: Hardness 20, Immune: Construct Traits.
Offensive:
Speed 30ft, Burrow 30ft.
Melee: Slam +11 plus grab (x2) (1d8+9)(19-20 crit)
Stats:
Str: 22, Dex: 8, Con: -, Int: -, Wis: 1, Cha: 1
Base Atk: +6/CMB: +13/CMD: 22
SQ: 11
Construction Points:
Additional Movement - Burrow (1 CP)
Metal - Adamantine (6 CP): 20 Hardness, +6 NA
Improved Atk (1 CP) - +1 size catagory upgrade to melee damage.
Additional Atk (1 CP)- Gain a second slam attack.
Grab (1 CP): Applies Grab to Slam attacks.
Augmented Critical (1 CP): Increases Crit range to 19-20.

(DC 21 alchemy check, Cost: 8,500gp)

I think there are a few issues (caster level too low, cost too high, time to make is insane) but Alchemist insists its RAW... anyone wanna weigh in?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Large animated object should have 4d10+30 hp. I don't think he can add extra HD, even if he has CL for it.

Required CL is equal to the HD of the animated object, so he's fine here, as long as he hast at least 4 ranks in Craft (alchemy).

The price of the construct is (HD+CP)*1000 + the cost of the item that is animated. The cost of a large adamantine statue isn't specified, but you can refer to the notes about adamantine golem; its (Huge) body requires metals worth in total 100000 gp; Large creatured have mass approximately 8 times smaller, so I'd estimate the cost of a Large adamantine statue for 12500 gp. I don't think he's able to craft the statue himself, so he'd need to pay the full price of the statue. Then with 4 HD and 11 CP, the added price of animated statue would be 15000 gp. He needs to spend 1/2 of it during the crafting. So my estimation of the total cost would is 20000 gp.

Creating animated objects with Promethean Disciple feat counts as using Craft Construct feat, that is you're using magic item crafting rules, not usual rules for Craft (alchemy). That means you can normally make 1000 gp of progress per day. Therefore crafting should take 15 days (not including the time to create the statue).


Adjoint wrote:

Large animated object should have 4d10+30 hp. I don't think he can add extra HD, even if he has CL for it.

Required CL is equal to the HD of the animated object, so he's fine here.

The price of the construct is (HD+CP)*1000 + the cost of the item that is animated. The cost of a large adamantine statue isn't specified, but you can refer to the notes about adamantine golem; its (Huge) body requires metals worth in total 100000 gp; Large creatured have mass approximately 8 times smaller, so I'd estimate the cost of a Large adamantine statue for 12500 gp. I don't think he's able to craft the statue himself, so he'd need to pay the full price of the statue. Then with 4 HD and 11 CP, the added price of animated statue would be 15000 gp. He needs to spend 1/2 of it during the crafting. So my estimation of the total cost would is 20000 gp.

Creating animated objects with Promethean Disciple feat counts as using Craft Construct feat, that is you're using magic item crafting rules, not usual rules for Craft (alchemy). That means you can normally make 1000 gp of progress per day. Therefore crafting should take 15 days (not including the time to create the statue).

As far as caster level, under creating magic items, the developers state that the creator should have a minimum caster level equal to the minimum level required to cast any spell necessary for construction (in this case, animated objects, clvl 11).

I actually figured it'd be more for the adamantine....a suit of adamantine full plate costs 15000 and that's not even large sized...


Sensten wrote:
As far as caster level, under creating magic items, the developers state that the creator should have a minimum caster level equal to the minimum level required to cast any spell necessary for construction (in this case, animated objects, clvl 11).

I believe that the specific rule for animated objects ("The creator must be of a caster level equal to or higher than the animated object’s Hit Dice.") overrides the general rule. But you can also argue that both requirements (from the spells and from the HD) need to be satisfied.

Quote:
I actually figured it'd be more for the adamantine....a suit of adamantine full plate costs 15000 and that's not even large sized...

Yeah, I'm aware of the discrepancy. If you use the listed price of raw adamantine (300 gp/lb) you get the price of adamantine full plate right, but not the price of adamantine golem. My assumption is that so called "adamantine constructs" are only partially made of adamantine, for example they only have adamntine plating or something, and the rest is made of more common metals.


References:
Animated Objects
Building and Modifying Constructs
Craft Construct
Large Animated Object

Pricing a New Construct: As a rough guideline, a construct’s price is equal to its challenge rating squared, then multiplied by 500 gp.
A standard Large Animated Object price is 12,500 gp, with a cost of 6,250 gp. This object has 3 CP as opposed to the 11 CP for the one listed by the OP. This is based on a price of CR squared * 500 = (5*5*500) = 12,500. The added CP causes the CR to jump to 9, causing a new price of (9*9*500) = 40,500 gp, with a cost of 20,250 gp.

Basic Modification: Some constructs have a defined cost for increasing Hit Dice. To calculate the cost per Hit Die of other constructs, divide the construct’s construction cost by its existing Hit Dice.
The OP's construct has two additional HD, which increases the cost: Price 60,750 gp, Cost 30,375 gp.

Default construction time: 61 days.

Animated Object wrote:

CL 11th; Price as determined by CR

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Construct, animate objects, permanency; Skill Spellcraft or appropriate Craft skill; Cost 1/2 price

DC is CL+5, or 16 before mods for missing requirements or accelerated crafting. The 7th level alchemist could have as high a CL as 7 [for full ranks in alchemy], thus allowing them to Take-10 to auto-pass the default check. There is no listed CL requirement, so that is not an issue. However, they don't get the animate objects or permanency spell, making them costly for another to supply (660 gp and 450+15,000[?], each day). Much easier to up the DC by 10 and skip those prerequisites. That, then needs a boost of +9 spellcraft (or craft skill). Not too hard to do.

However, there exists the following:

Alternate Construction Rules wrote:

Magic-users can create permanent animated objects in one of two ways, either by using the animate objects spell in conjunction with permanency, or by making use of the Craft Construct feat. Using the Craft Construct feat requires the creator to construct or purchase the object he wishes to animate. He must then spend an amount of gold on reagents—to determine the amount, add the animated object’s HD to its CP, and multiple the total by 1,000. The creator must be of a caster level equal to or higher than the animated object’s Hit Dice.

CL varies (equal to the animated object’s HD); Price varies (cost of object + [(animated object’s HD + CP) × 1,000])

CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Feats Craft Construct; Spells animate objects, permanency; Skill optional (determined by object being created; crafting the object reduces its cost); Cost 1/2 price

With this formula, the standard large construct requires a base object cost of (12,500 - 7,000) = 5,500 gp. Upping to 11 CP adds 8,000 to the price, for a new price of 20,500 gp and cost of 13,000.

Default construction time: 15 days.

@Adjoint:
The CL of the construct is not a requirement. It is the CL for calculating effects generated by the object and for calculating the DC to craft.
The price of an animated object has no extra for the adamantine, as it is covered by the CP expendurature.
The crafting time is based of the price [discounting the price of the base object if using the alt rules].
The specific rule you quote in your later post does't exist. Neither the standard construction rule nor the alternate construction rule has a CL requirement.

@Sensten:
Reference:
Magic Item Creation
It looks like you are referring to:

Quote:
While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal.

This refers to spells the item can cast. This does not apply to spells needed to make the item.

/cevah


There is the possibility of needing to buy an adamantine statue/snake for the Adamantine CP to work, that part of animated objects is weird.

Also the price for things are weird. For example: Adamantine Cobra need 100 pound of materials and costs 20k gp. But according to the trade goods section adamantine cost 300 gp per lb, that's 30k gp just on material if that's what's needed.

My point is that there needs to be communication and planning since construct crafting is not cut and dry.


Building and Modifying constructs wrote:
Animated objects are a special case—their base price is not increased by any abilities paid for with Construction Points, since these abilities are already factored into an Animated Object’s CR.

The Metal (Adamantine)'s price is counted by its CP adjustment. No extra gp is needed.

The Adamantine Cobra's materials is still 100 pounds of stuff, but is not 100 pounds of adamantine. Note that the Price of all varieties is exactly twice the cost. This means that the base cost for all varieties is zero. All that gp spent enchanting it covers its special "adamantine" quality.

/cevah


That's makes sense

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Crafting constructs question All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.