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Ok, maybe not. It sure would help me understand what triggers people. I'm personally concerned about the mention of PrSD and how to avoid it as a gm. Since I'm under the belief that people make choices and choose their hobbies, hence people self select themselves out of hobbies that they are not comfortable with. Is there situations where that is not the case. Are people for whatever reason dealing with severe emotional trauma and sticking with Orgsnized play? Is it a one time thing? Are their triggers that are impacting many people. Thus a content warnings at the start of games may be warranted. I only want to do it in severe situations not in cases where someone is uncomfortable with the content that is common in the game system.
I'm not sure it's wise for Paizo to negatively tag their own products in a competitive market place. For something that is very rare. They subtly do it for horror conten already.
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Since I'm under the belief that people make choices and choose their hobbies, hence people self select themselves out of hobbies that they are not comfortable with.
I'm comfortable with a large percentage of TTRPG content. There is a small, but significant percentage of TTRPG content that triggers my PTSD.
You seem to be suggesting that I should not play at all because of that. That I should 'self-select myself out' of my hobby.
Is there situations where that is not the case.
Yes, many of us are unwilling to completely stop playing games when only some of the content is triggering.
Are people for whatever reason dealing with severe emotional trauma and sticking with Orgsnized play?
Yes.
Is it a one time thing?
No
Are their triggers that are impacting many people. Thus a content warnings at the start of games may be warranted.
I can only speak for myself. The ability to discover triggering content before I sign up for a table slot is important to me. Otherwise the following things may happen
a) I go to a con, sign up for a slot, and have to leave the table in the middle of the session.b) I go to a FLGS, sign up for a game, and discover after I've driven all that way that the game would trigger me. The game does not start.
c) I got to a FLGS, sign up for a game and have to walk away from the table int he middle of the game.
I only want to do it in severe situations not in cases where someone is uncomfortable with the content that is common in the game system.
No, it is not ok for a gaming system or organization to know that they are making people who are trying to have fun "uncomfortable".
I'm not sure it's wise for Paizo to negatively tag their own products in a competitive market place. For something that is very rare. They subtly do it for horror conten already.
You have implied several times that letting people know which material contained triggering content would have a negative impact on Paizo's financial condition, possibly leading to its collapse as a business.
I don't know where you're getting your data to reach that conclusion, but how about not blaming people with trauma for it.
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In an effort not to fall into another Rant of Pure Umbrage (Bardic Masterpiece), I'm going to let others who are giving more measured responses than I did earlier continue.
Thank you, CrystalSeas, for being willing to share your experience.
I'm not sure it's wise for Paizo to negatively tag their own products in a competitive market place. For something that is very rare. They subtly do it for horror content already.
This part, I will respond to. I'm not sure why the tags are being viewed as negative. They are just practical, sometimes broad, descriptions of what is in the content.
There is nothing wrong with having content that touches on complex topics. We're just asking that some care be taken in how that information is made available to people so that someone who might be affected by it has a better chance of avoiding pain.
Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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Are people for whatever reason dealing with severe emotional trauma and sticking with Orgsnized play?
You're talking to someone who has a connection to real life murder and suicide with Pathfinder....
Edit:It's not Paizo's fault either. It's just the weirdest set of circumstances let to that.
Venture-Captain, Online—VTT
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Since I'm under the belief that people make choices and choose their hobbies, hence people self select themselves out of hobbies that they are not comfortable with..
So, would you suggest that people who have content issues with things that might be on TV, in movies or in video games... avoid TV, movies and video games entirely?
I suspect not. Instead, it's far more reasonable to assume that there will be some helpful, brief warnings about the content of the material which allow people to avoid things they find traumatic.
Substitute 'scenario' for any of those things and you've understood the request. Thinking that people would ignore or avoid an entire, huge range of a thing because a small percentage of it might cause a problem isn't remotely realistic, and it certainly doesn't help solve the issues in anything but the most scorched earth ways. People will 'self select' as you put it, but on a smaller scale, by avoiding individual scenarios that have issues, and putting some brief labels on scenarios enables that self selection.
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Let me talk about content warning. I put s horror content warning on a local store game summary and several players said they read it and didn't wanted to Play something else instead. So yes I believe content warnings can have a impact on sales and excitement. How much I don't know. But I do knos only Paizo would be doing them in organized play format and it even wouldn't look good when parents are selecting what games there teens should play.
Pathfinder And Starfinder are both out of the top 5 in top roy games sales for the first time since 2012. Pf2 is not marketing well so I have no doubt their are financial concerns. This data can be easily Google searched. I'm on the road I can attach links to this data when I get home.
I'm saying people make choices. People who are afraid of flying don't normally get a pilots license, i an suprised to find oriole with serious PTSD issues playing organized play with strangers.
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Well,by your count you are saying 3% of PFS players have active PTSD issues. That would be 1 in every 3 tables. Honestly I would have to rethink my comitment to organized plau at that rate. It would better to play in Home games then risk triggering severe trauma in somone accidentally.
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Well,by your count you are saying 3% of PFS players have active PTSD issues.
Not at all. The figure is 3.6% of the population "adults in the US". There is no information to tell is what the percentage is within the sub-population "teenagers and adults who play TTRPGs". And there's no information about what the percentage is within the sub-population "teenagers and adults who play TTRPGs in Pathfinder Society games".
The percentage could be higher, or it could be lower. There is no way to tell.
That would be 1 in every 3 tables.
So let's do the arithmetic.
Assume every table has 5 players.That means that to have 100 players, you'd need 20 tables.
Let's also assume that the players dealing with PTSD sit at separate tables.
If 3.6% of those 100 players are dealing with PTSD, then 3 or 4 of those 20 tables will have someone seated. To maximize the number that's 4/20 or 1 in every 5 tables. (again, we don't know whether PFS players are more or less likely to be dealing with PTSD and other trauma, so we're using the average for the general adult population)
Honestly I would have to rethink my comitment to organized plau at that rate. It would better to play in Home games then risk triggering severe trauma in somone accidentally.
Here's another statistic to keep in mind:
Suicide is a real concern.7 percent of college students have “seriously considered suicide” during the past year.
Suicide is the 3rd leading cause of death on college campuses.
and
A study of national data found the use of psychotropic medication in adolescents rose from 14 percent in the 1990s to 20 percent in the mid-2000s.
So if you're dealing with adolescents, there's a 20 percent chance they'll be taking psychotropic medications. And if you've got college kids at your table, around 7% of them will have seriously considered suicide in the past year.
College professors face these issues every single day, in every class room and every visit during office hours. It's not a trivial concern.
Let me repeat what I said earlier
The fact that no one has been brave enough to talk to you about their mental health problems does not mean that there has never been anyone at your tables with mental health problems.
Anything Paizo can do to help alleviate the pain and the triggers will be useful.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Let me talk about content warning. I put s horror content warning on a local store game summary and several players said they read it and didn't wanted to Play something else instead.
You're writing this as if it proves that the warnings were a bad thing because they frightened away people. Well, it did cause them to avoid a scenario you wanted to run.
But isn't that the point? Maybe playing the scenario would have been unpleasant for them, and because they were warned, they could avoid it. The warnings did exactly what they were intended to.
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2 questions if you have ptsd and Paizo does not change their current policy about tags how would you suggest a gm alleviate trauma triggers when they are not known.
2nd question if Paizo implements trauma triggers how would you suggest they do it if people with PtSD does not want to re-live it and share what triggered it and no one at Paizo is qualified or understands them?
I still do not believe 3% of organized players have active PTSD. It implies that Paizo organized players are the same population as the general population when every demographic study in the industry implies otherwise.
There is also plenty of market research that making a pg-13 movie is the best rating to appeal to a wider audience. An R or X rating hurts attendance. There is no reason to believe that would also not apply to the gaming industry. Why do movies do it?to target niche markets.
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I still do not believe 3% of organized players have active PTSD. It implies that Paizo organized players are the same population as the general population when every demographic study in the industry implies otherwise.
That's what I said. We have no data to show whether PFS players are more mentally healthy than average, less mentally healthy than average, or just average.
There is also plenty of market research that making a pg-13 movie is the best rating to appeal to a wider audience.
That's also true. Directors cut "gritty" scenes so that R/X movies can get that coveted PG-13 rating.
people self select themselves out of hobbies that they are not comfortable with
So, is it better for Paizo's bottom line if
a) People who have triggers always play Pathfinder because Paizo has eliminated all material that might trigger someoneb) People who have triggers sometimes play Pathfinder because Paizo has labeled scenarios that might trigger someone.
c) People who have triggers never play Pathfinder because Paizo includes triggering material with no warnings.
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I think I've hogged this conversation too long. It is my impression that paizo never intended their product for a mass audience it was for grown up 3.5 players. (I think that mindset has changed in the last couple years).
With the inclusion of silly goblins in PF2 it appears to me they are now targeting a general audience.
So moving forward no R rated content at all from Paizo unless something is "horror" themed and tagged as such. (thus targeting a niche horror market.)
For PF1 leave as is and move on. There is no need to spend any resources on a product that no longer receives support.
Starfinder is much more light hearted with the exception of The Diaspora strain (horror themed) and one early SFS scenario where the protagonist was on hallucinogenics the entire scenario (even I was uncomfortable running a drug induced NPC when kids were at the table).
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(even I was uncomfortable running a drug induced NPC when kids were at the table).
Mushroom samba is a cartoon staple. As long as he's having a happy trip it shouldn't be something that they haven't seen in a cartoon.
Venture-Agent, Netherlands
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(even I was uncomfortable running a drug induced NPC when kids were at the table).Mushroom samba is a cartoon staple. As long as he's having a happy trip it shouldn't be something that they haven't seen in a cartoon.
** spoiler omitted **
I've run that scenario multiple times, it's a happy trip and everyone I've run it for enjoys the ridiculousness that comes from a tripped out NPC. But that's me personally.
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Paizo needs to make money to stay in business. They are losing market share big time. It all won't matter if they go out of business.
Market share does not necessarily correlate to profit.
Paizo does have a smaller market share as 5e's popularity grows, yes, but their profits have gone up.
Yep. To further lay it out (with numbers I'm just making up)
4th Edition era:
D&D: 50 million in profits
Paizo: 5 million in profits5th Edition era:
D&D: 100 million in profits
Paizo: 20 million in profits
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And then there's that guy who was tripping so hard he thought he was a Prince.
Maybe I should put warning tags on my characters? Hey?
He's delusional a mental condition. He's also reincarnated and was once a prince in Scotland. At least so he believes."I'm Prince Malcolm and I am a handsome prince."
I play to have fun, if it's not fun I don't play it's pretty simple.
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I Asked 4 players from my home Runequest game who play multiple different kinds of games at conventions and apparently there was a situation in Adventures League where at the end of the scenario a 8 year old child walks up and blows himself up to kill a mind flayer. And at a table at a convention a vietnam vet had a traumatic mental/physical reaction where an ambulance needed to be called and he was taken to the hospital. Adventures League pulled the scenario from publication/Adventures League.
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I do. I have even toned down my ifrit supremacists since starting them.And then there's that guy who was tripping so hard he thought he was a Prince.Maybe I should put warning tags on my characters? Hey?
I have 2 characters I have toned down an alcoholic who is bitter at men and my priestess of Calistiria. Others I watch for table reaction and taper off the silliness if it's not being received well.
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Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro
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I still do not believe 3% of organized players have active PTSD. It implies that Paizo organized players are the same population as the general population when every demographic study in the industry implies otherwise.
I mean your the person who entirely derailed the conversation about PTSD. If you actually pay attention and think the demographics do play out that way in regards to trauma.
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My mind has been changed on this issue. Tag away if someone thinks it's needed. But, It looks from an outsider that pf2 products are targeted at a younger and with more light-hearted/silly themes then previous material so tags might not be needed as much.
I don't think Paizo should be the ones doing it on previous scenarios. That's a lot of work to tag hundreds of products. There is something like 300 PFS/SFS scenarios in publication. And then there is something like 140 Adventure paths and somewhere around 30 modules.
But I still believe people who don't want to be reminded of something terrifying to them (and not others) avoid taking actions that puts them at risk of re-living the terrifying moment. I'm aware that PTSD often comes on with a trigger that was previously unknown.
I still haven't met a person in my gaming circles that think 3% of PFS/SFS players are at risk of a trauma trigger that involves an in-game situation. That is different then saying 3% of players have PTSD.
People also play the game differently. some play if very mechanically and it's all about rolling dice. Some play in the moment within the game. Others play with detailed descriptions with use imaginative imagery.
In my area the most common GM complaint is GM's who go out of their way to kill characters. The most often heard content complaints that I hear is something is too hard or the content was written in such a way that a certain party make-up is needed. Sometimes I hear some of the season 5 Demon stuff box text items are disgusting.
But maybe I live in a bay area bubble where things are different here.
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Roy, you may not be asking enough people. I am in your gaming circles, and I certainly believe that 3% of our gamers have at least one issue that could come up in a game they would like a heads-up about. It may not be specifically a PTSD-related trigger, which is why I prefer the more general term “content notes” to the more specific “trigger warnings,” but it is definitely useful to many of our players to have this available.
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Goblins being included as a core race and a public comment made from a Paizo employee where it was said they are aware they have an older customer base then other organized societies and it is something they were going to address.
It's just a guess on my part but it would be a smart marketing strategy.