“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
A Touch Attack Spell is considered an “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, like a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or a creature with natural physical weapons, in fact it is eligible for Weapon Finesse.
Following this, it should be possible to apply Bonuses, at least for an attack rolls, like those given by an "Amulet of Mighty Fists", weapon special ability like "Guided", Spells like "Divine Power", or pick a feat "Weapon Focus Melee Touch Attack"
What do you think about it?
Is there any FAQ that talks about it?
Touch attacks are not considered to be a weapon (though they are an unarmed attack), therefore they are not a valid choice for weapon focus and weapon finesse does not work on them.
AoMF would apply as they are unarmed attacks, as would general attack bonuses such as divine power.
unarmed attack IS a weapon (it's even in the weapons tables and in fighter's weapon groups).
while some forms of attack might not work with stuff that only work with weapons, since unarmed attack is a weapon it still do.
there are faq for this:
zza ni wrote: unarmed attack IS a weapon (it's even in the weapons tables and in fighter's weapon groups).
while some forms of attack might not work with stuff that only work with weapons, since unarmed attack is a weapon it still do.
there are faq for this:
No it is not. While an Unarmed Strike is a form of Unarmed Attack, not all Unarmed Attacks are Unarmed Strikes. Fighter weapons groups and the weapons table only list Unarmed Strikes (and gauntlets). Unarmed Attack is a category of weapons not a weapon itself.
From that FAQ:
Quote: In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.” The exception is abilities that deal damage when a creature touches or hits you in melee (for instance, the occultis’s energy ward focus power), which should also deal damage when a creature makes a melee touch attack against you but rarely call them out directly.
Certain special abilities (for instance rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts) can specifically be selected with feats like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical. They still aren’t considered a type of weapon for other rules; they are not part of any weapon group and don’t qualify for the effects of fighter weapon training, warpriest sacred weapon, magus arcane pool, paladin divine bond, or any other such ability.
Rays, kinetic blasts, and mystic bolts are specifically called out by either feats or class features as being selectable. Melee Touch, and Ranged Touch attacks are not, you cannot select them as a weapon for feats like weapon focus/specialization, improved critical, etc.
Things that provide a bonus to hit in general such as Divine Power, True Strike, Divine Favor, favored enemy, etc. will apply to attack rolls with touch attacks. Things like Arcane Strike do not apply to touch attacks as they are not on the weapons table.
Quote: Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed (see natural attacks).
Touch attack spell is treated in the same way as Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks for this purpose.
You count as being armed.
Weapon Finesse like Weapon Focus, dont enchant your weapon, but your ability to use it.
Arcane Strike enchant your weapon, that's why don't work.
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
With a light weapon, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.
Weapon Focus (Combat)
You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Arcane Strike (Combat)
As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power.
xRagex wrote: Touch attack spell is treated in the same way as Unarmed Strike and Natural Attacks for this purpose.
You count as being armed.
Weapon Finesse like Weapon Focus, dont enchant your weapon, but your ability to use it.
Arcane Strike enchant your weapon, that's why don't work.
Weapon Finesse (Combat)
With a light weapon, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls.
Weapon Focus (Combat)
You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Arcane Strike (Combat)
As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power.
It's still not a weapon, it is an unarmed attack, but that does not make it a weapon. Similarly, combat maneuvers are attacks, but the only one selectable is grapple for weapon focus, and you need a feat (other than weapon finesse) to be able to use dex to attack with it. Likewise, you can't use weapon finesse on melee touch attacks, especially so since they aren't called out as a light weapon (only unarmed strikes are).
In order for you to be able to select something with weapon focus, it needs to be on the weapons table (like unarmed strike), or called out as selectable in a feat or ability (like rays, mystic bolts, grapple, and kineticist blasts). Touch attacks are not so, therefore you can't select them for weapon focus or similar feats.
Quote: Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity.
An unarmed attack, without Improved Unarmed Strike feat, cause Attack of Opportunity, because it's not a weapon, but it's anyway elegible for Weapon Finesse.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/strike-unarm ed/
Just follow the logic:
Quote: Weapon Finesse
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
Work only on light weapons, obviously because you no longer use the strength, and your hand is surely light.
You add your Strength in an Melee Touch Attack, so why should you never be able to use dexterity instead?
the words in that rule state it very clear:
"Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:"
in other words beside provoking an aoo it's just like a melee weapon = can be used with weapon finesse.
zza ni wrote: the words in that rule state it very clear:
"Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:"
in other words beside provoking an aoo it's just like a melee weapon = can be used with weapon finesse.
xRagex wrote: An unarmed attack, without Improved Unarmed Strike feat, cause Attack of Opportunity, because it's not a weapon Unarmed Attack != Unarmed Strike.
An unarmed strike is a form of unarmed attack, as are touch attacks and natural weapons.
Again, Unarmed Strikes are called out as light weapons, touch attacks are not, therefore they do not qualify for weapon finesse (since weapon finesse only works for light weapons).
xRagex wrote: Quote: Unarmed Attacks
Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.
An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity.
An unarmed attack, without Improved Unarmed Strike feat, cause Attack of Opportunity, because it's not a weapon...
Nope. Making an unarmed attack provokes because the rules tell us they do. The rules provide no additional reasoning beyond that. Ie, the rule you quoted above says nothing about the unarmed attack being a weapon or not being a weapon as a reason for being able to make an AoO.
While you can take feats like weapon focus for ray spells, there is no implication or suggestion that you can take such feats for melee touch spells.
You could take such feats for unarmed strikes, as unarmed strikes are part of the "natural" weapons group, but touch attacks are not considered unarmed strikes. You could make an unarmed strike while holding a charge, and if you hit normal AC deliver the charge.
This is further specifically reinforced by this FAQ showing that making a touch attack requires a standard action, and thus cannot be used in a full attack. AoO's are not standard actions, and by implication then a touch attack cannot be made as an AoO (just like you cannot cleave or vital strike as an AoO). So holding a charge makes you armed, and being armed you could make a "armed" unarmed strike as an AoO (against normal AC). You cannot make a touch attack as an AoO.
An unarmed attack is not the same thing as an unarmed strike. Conflating the two will cause you grief.
bbangerter wrote:
You could take such feats for unarmed strikes, as unarmed strikes are part of the "natural" weapons group
No, unarmed strike isn't a natural weapon.
Natural Attacks are considered “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, whereas you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike if you don't have "Improved Unarmed Strike feat".
Strike, Unarmed
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike. Unarmed strikes do not count as natural weapons (see Combat). The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.
A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at his discretion.
bbangerter wrote: but touch attacks are not considered unarmed strikes. You could make an unarmed strike while holding a charge, and if you hit normal AC deliver the charge. Touch Attack Spell is considered “Armed” Unarmed Attack.
bbangerter wrote:
This is further specifically reinforced by this FAQ showing that making a touch attack requires a standard action, and thus cannot be used in a full attack. AoO's are not standard actions, and by implication then a touch attack cannot be made as an AoO (just like you cannot cleave or vital strike as an AoO).
You can use Weapon Finesse with Vital Strike, that's what we was talking about.
bbangerter wrote:
So holding a charge makes you armed
No, as said in the quote, “Armed” Unarmed Attacks: a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell.
Unnecessary holding charge for be considered "Armed".
Delivering a touch attack spell require an Attack Roll, because you have to hit the enemy, and in that attack roll you add your strength, as usual for Melee Attacks.
What do Weapon Finesse? enchant a manufactured weapon? no it doesn't.
You are trained in using your agility in melee combat, as opposed to brute strength.
That's what do, just changes the way you hit, like "Guided".
xRagex wrote:
Touch Attack Spell is considered “Armed” Unarmed Attack.
Again, that's still not the same thing as an unarmed strike. Unarmed Attacks are not only Unarmed Strikes.
Unarmed Attacks consist of Unarmed Strikes, Touch Attacks, and Natural Weapons.
Again, Unarmed Attacks as a category, and Touch Attacks are never called out as light weapons.
Quote: With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. Unarmed Strikes being light weapons does not mean that touch attacks are light weapons as well, and Weapon finesse doesn't work unless you can show that touch attacks are light weapons.
xRagex wrote:
No, unarmed strike isn't a natural weapon.
Natural Attacks are considered “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, whereas you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike if you don't have "Improved Unarmed Strike feat".
I pointed out it was part of the natural weapon group (see fighter weapon groups for reference) - not that it was itself considered a natural weapon (though in many instances it is treated as such, and sometimes it is treated as a manufactured weapon - UAS are really just all over the place in terms of rules). It being part of a weapon group, and on the weapon tables, is an indication we can take things like weapon focus for it. Touch attack spell is not a part of any weapon group, and is not ever listed as being treated as a light weapon, and is not on the weapons table. So we cannot treat it as a weapon, and feats that require a certain type of weapon do not work with it.
xRagex wrote:
Strike, Unarmed
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
Correct. But a making an attack with a touch spell targeting touch AC is not the same as making an unarmed strike. An unarmed strike targets normal AC, deals it's damage, and any discharged spell damage on top of it. The unarmed strike can also benefit from weapon focus, weapon finesse, and like feats. The touch spell targeting touch AC cannot.
xRagex wrote:
You can use Weapon Finesse with Vital Strike, that's what we was talking about.
I'm assuming this is simply a misstatement, and you meant weapon finesse and unarmed strike? Cause you weren't talking about vital strike as that didn't even get mentioned in this thread till I referenced it.
xRagex wrote:
No, as said in the quote, “Armed” Unarmed Attacks: a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell.
Unnecessary holding charge for be considered "Armed".
I don't think there is a meaningful distinction to be made about having just cast a touch spell and trying to deliver it via the free touch attack in the same round (which is not a UAS by the way) vs not delivering it and thus it becoming a held charge. In both cases you are "armed".
The important thing to take away from being "Armed" is that you now threaten, thus allowing you to flank, and taking AoO's with your UAS. Along with any other benefits that trigger from you being able to threaten a target.
The reason we know a touch spell is not a UAS is because making the touch attack only deals spell damage. While making a UAS deals physical damage by definition:
UAS wrote:
Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character’s unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of bludgeoning damage, while a Large character’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).
Recent threads in Rules Questions
|
