# Dragon's Demand & Curse of the Crimson Throne

### Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion

Reading the first two pages of storybooks for the Dragon's Demand (Core) and Curse of the Crimson Throne (Curse of the Crimson Throne, duh), I noticed something strange regarding if you want to play Curse after Dragon's Demand.
Dragon's Demand Adventure Path reward: "You may play another Adventure Path starting with adventure 1. … and treat # as 3 during adventures 1,2,3"
Curse of the Crimson Throne: "You may … or bring in characters who have started Dragon's Demand Adventure Path first. If the latter, you should add one wildcard for every adventure in the Dragon's Demands that the characters have completed; also, increase # by the # of the last scenario you completed, and treat encountered banes' level as higher by that same #"

OK, there are some inconsistencies between rulebooks as written. DDAP reward allows you to play other APs - but Curse allows to play even if you did not finish DDAP. OK, that's a tangle, but suppose Curse allows that and other APs may not - and what is not forbidden, is allowed. So we let it slide.
Wildcards? Yay, some difficulty for the experienced heroes so they are not bored by too-easy banes!
But here's the crucial point - DD says: Curse_# = 3 during 1,2,3. Curse says: Curse_# = Adventure number + # of the last scenario you completed in DD (not adventure????). I do not think these statements can be both true - will the # be 4 in the first adventure or 3? #=5 or 3, #=6 or 3, #=7 or 4 in the subsequent adventures?
Storybook > cards, but when two Storybook contradict? *confused*

 Chief Technical Officer

They're both "you may" instructions, so you may do whichever one you prefer.

Vic Wertz wrote:
They're both "you may" instructions, so you may do whichever one you prefer.

Thank you very much for answering, Vic, but in my limited understanding there are two inconsistencies and I don't know which one you answered :-D

Issue 1) You may transfer character who finished DD OR character who even started playing DD - that's based on two "you may" in different storybooks

Issue 2) One option tells you that # in Curse is 3 for adventures 1-3 and the second one that # in Curse is adventure number + adventure level in DD (i.e. up to #=10 in the 7th bonus adventure/scenario). These variants seem mutually exclusive to me and neither of them has the sentence "you may"

If you, however, meant that choosing of the options in Issue 1 (if the hero even completed DD) forces the hero to follow the corresponding options in Issue 2, then I do not understand the intent. The character who didn't finish adventure 3 in DD and is used for Curse goes through #=4,5,6,7,8,9(,10) + has to take 3 wildcards, whereas the character who finished DD adventure path and is supposedly stronger goes through #=3,3,3,4,5,6(,7) and no wildcards?
Sorry, I just don't understand :)

 Chief Technical Officer

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Let's start over.

The Dragon's Demand AP reward says "You may play your character in another Adventure Path starting with adventure 1. Build the vault with all of its level 0, 1, 2, and 3 cards, and treat # as 3 during adventures 1, 2, and 3." (Note that this overrides Curse's Build the Vault rules, which say "At the start of the Adventure Path, the vault should contain all level 0 and 1 cards from the Core Set and the Curse of the Crimson Throne Adventure Path.")

Curse of the Crimson Throne says "You may play this Adventure Path using starting characters at level 0, or bring in characters who have started The Dragon’s Demand Adventure Path first. If the latter, you should add one wildcard for every adventure in The Dragon’s Demand that the characters have completed; also, increase # by the # of the last scenario you completed, and treat encountered banes’ levels as higher by that same #."

If you want to start Curse with characters that started the Dragon's Demand but did not complete it, you must choose the second option.

If you want to start it with characters that completed DD, you can choose either option.

Using the DD reward, when you play Curse adventures 1 through 3, you have level 0, 1, 2, and 3 banes and boons in the vault, and you're treating # as 3 for everything (including your feat maximums). When you get to adventure 4, you're back to par (and can finally take your 4th feat in each type).

Using the Curse rule (assuming you completed DD):
• When you're playing adventure 1, the vault has level 0 and 1 cards, you're adding 3 wildcards, treating # as 4 (so you can gain those 4th feats right away), and treating level 1 banes as level 4 banes.
• When you're playing adventure 2, the vault has level 0, 1, and 2 cards, you're adding 3 wildcards, treating # as 5, treating level 1 banes as level 4 banes, and treating level 2 banes as level 5 banes.
• When you're playing adventure 3, the vault has level 0, 1, 2, and 3 cards (weeding out Level 0 non-veterans), you're adding 3 wildcards, treating # as 6, treating level 1 banes as level 4 banes, treating level 2 banes as level 5 banes, and treating level 3 banes as level 6 banes.
• And so on.

So each is really applying a very different difficulty curve. The DD reward is kind of hitting the "pause" button on difficulty adjustment, essentially giving you 3 more adventures worth of content while you remain at level 3, then letting you proceed at the standard pace. The Curse rule lets you play each of the Curse adventures with a difficulty "X" levels higher than standard, where "X" is the number of DD adventures you have completed (assuming you finished, that's 3).

Thank you, Vic, for explanation. I would guess it would be vice versa to keep the successful player on his/her toes. The difference between these two variants is especially remarkable at higher adventures.

 Chief Technical Officer

Rewards are generally supposed to make things easier for you. And this one generally does that...

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Just a further clarification example question please.

Normal game for these monsters:
Goblin Troublemaker; Level 0; Check to defeat: 9
Skeleton; Level 0; Check to defeat: 10 +##

Using the Curse rule (completed DD):
Let DD = the # of the last scenario completed, so 3 in this case.
Playing Curse Adventure 1, # = 1 + DD, so 4 in this case.

So are these monsters now:
Goblin Troublemaker; Level 0+DD, so 0+3=3; Check to defeat: 9+DD, so 9+3=12?
Skeleton; Level 0+DD, so 0+3=3; Check to defeat: 10+DD +##, so 10+3+4+4=21?

Droideka wrote:

Just a further clarification example question please.

Normal game for these monsters:
Goblin Troublemaker; Level 0; Check to defeat: 9
Skeleton; Level 0; Check to defeat: 10 +##

Using the Curse rule (completed DD):
Let DD = the # of the last scenario completed, so 3 in this case.
Playing Curse Adventure 1, # = 1 + DD, so 4 in this case.

So are these monsters now:
Goblin Troublemaker; Level 0+DD, so 0+3=3; Check to defeat: 9+DD, so 9+3=12?
Skeleton; Level 0+DD, so 0+3=3; Check to defeat: 10+DD +##, so 10+3+4+4=21?

No.

It depends on which rules you choose to allow you to play DD characters in Curse. Also, there are no separate # I know of.
If you use the DD reward, you can play with #=3 during Curse 1,2,3 adventures. In that case, the difficulty would be (in adventures 1-3):
Goblin Troublemaker: 9 (no # mentioned)
Skeleton: 16 (# = 3 in adventures 1-3), later +2 / adventure up to 24 in adventure 7

If you use the Curse rule instead (the state of double rules I am still not really fond of), # is DD's last played scenario + current adventure number, that is - 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. You also get wildcards (their amount: DD's last scenario, i.e. up to 3)
Goblin Troublemaker: 9 (no # mentioned, Curse increases only the Level of banes)
Skeleton: 18 (# = 3+1 in adventure 1), then +2 / adventure up to 30 in adventure 7

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Yeah I was referring to only the Curse rule as the DD reward will make it too boring, i.e. playing 3 Adventures before you can increase any feats.

So the "easy" monsters will be even easier using the Curse rule then as the characters are leveled up so much from DD.

Droideka wrote:

Yeah I was referring to only the Curse rule as the DD reward will make it too boring, i.e. playing 3 Adventures before you can increase any feats.

So the "easy" monsters will be even easier using the Curse rule then as the characters are leveled up so much from DD.

I'm on 3-4 of Curse playing with the Curse rules for the same reason noted above. Its been interesting. The static Bane's level 1 & 2 are generally push overs (some barriers with specific skill requirements are an exception if a character doesn't have that skill.) If there is anything challenging from them it generally comes from their before and after acting powers.

Banes with a single # generally aren't much of a problem.

Banes with ## feel about the right level of challenge.

Boons with a # in their effect are very desirable. Looking at you Enhance, Aid, Good Omen and Magic Weapon. At Curse Adventures 3 the #=6. Enhance therefore gives a static +7 to a skill and only keeps getting better.

I also have a sword that can be discarded for 1d8+# which can generally auto most combats. I call it my finisher.

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Thanks for the report :) We are about to start with this method and I was not sure how it would go. I guess the 3 wildcard effects will balance out the "easier" banes as well. I think we will randomly pick one from each Wildcard card and on the next scenario it has to be a different one from the previous one to keep things interesting :)

 Lone Shark Games

The three wildcards are supposed to shake things up a bit, yes.

I'd suggest using the Harrow wildcard that matches the adventure suit, for thematic reason. I'm going to make that very suggestion in a forthcoming blog, as a way to add additional flavor to Curse.

I do applaud the idea of one wildcard from each of the cards, though. That'll give you a nice mix.

RE: Wildcards. With 18 possible wildcards I've been using my d20 from Wrath and just randomly rolling them (rerolling 19-20).

I wouldn't say the wildcards do much to change the easier banes. Most wildcards feel like an annoyance to the characters while a few fundamentally change the way you play.

For instance one says (paraphrasing) you can only play one power on your turn that lets you explore. That's a game changer because it absolutely limits you to 2 explores per character.

Another forces you to bury a card in your discard pile at the end of the turn so you better be sure you keep you're best cards out of there.

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Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

We are currently playing our first Core full adventure and decided to play both Dragon's Demand & Curse of the Crimson Throne at the same time, but with the following caveats:
A) We felt that only having 6 feats of each type at the end may be frustrating so we wanted to allow for more
B) We had to take into account that we would end up with a lot of Hero Points
C) To balance, we needed to add some difficulty at some points
D) We wanted that difficulty to be easy not to forget during play
E) We wanted to get some (low) penalty for losing a scenario
F) We didn't like the idea to get level 3 boons since the start as it would be frustrating not to be able to upgrade for a long period if we were lucky enough to acquire powerful cards very early.
G) If a card is supposed to be a potential at reward at some point, it shouldn't be in the vault before
H) Changes should mainly be all for between scenarios management in order not to impact during scenario play/rules

So we decided the following (seems a lot, but pretty much nothing to remember, just guidelines to read between scenarios and apply-and-forget)
A) Get rid of all the cards that are future rewards.
B) Get random 0 level boons to start characters
C) Mix 0-1 level DD & CotCC cards in the vault before starting first scenario
D) Lose 1 HP or 1 feat (your choice) each time you lose a scenario
E) Play the scenarios in the following order:

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is 1

Play all level 1 DD scenarios

Play all level 1 CotCC scenarios
Return your level 1 Harrow to the vault

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is now 2

Add level 2 DD cards in the vault
Play all level 2 DD scenarios

Add level 2 CotCC cards in the vault
Return all Harrows of the level 2 suit to the vault so that players have a full set to Draw for
Draw random blessings to complete deck if needed
Play all level 2 CotCC scenarios
Return your level 2 Harrow to the vault

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is now 3

Add level 3 CotCC cards in the vault
Remove level 0 banes (and selected boons) from the vault
Return all Harrows of the level 3 suit to the vault so that players have a full set to Draw for
Draw random blessings to complete deck if needed
Play all level 3 CotCC scenarios, getting your role card after 3A (this is why we play that adventure before then end of DD)
Return your level 3 Harrow to the vault

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is now 4
To insure proper difficulty, from now on add 1 wildcard during each scenario.
- If the scenario already involves wildcards, use the Large location build (rather that the medium) for the 2 first locations in the location list instead.
- If also (very rare hopefully) the scenario has a special location built, add 2 monsters and 2 barriers to it instead.

Add level 3 DD cards in the vault
Play all level 3 DD scenarios except the random final scenarios (we'll keep that for later levels in order to get more play at levels 4-6)
Be happy you defeated the Dragon

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is now 5

Add level 4 CotCC cards in the vault
Remove level 1 banes (and selected boons) from the vault
Return all Harrows of the level 4 suit to the vault so that players have a full set to Draw for
Draw random blessings to complete deck if needed
Play all level 4 CotCC scenarios
Return your level 4 Harrow to the vault

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is now 6
To insure proper difficulty, from now on add 1 wildcard during each scenario AND use the Large location build (rather that the medium) for the 2 first locations in the location list.
- If doesn't make sense for the scenario, do something similar that works (not getting into details here, you get the idea).

Play a couple of random level 3 DD scenarios considering #=4

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is now 7

Add level 5 CotCC cards in the vault
Remove level 2 banes (and selected boons) from the vault
Return all Harrows of the level 5 suit to the vault so that players have a full set to Draw for
Draw random blessings to complete deck if needed
Play all level 5 CotCC scenarios
Return your level 5 Harrow to the vault

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is now 8
To insure proper difficulty, from now on add 2 wildcards during each scenario AND use the Large location build (rather that the medium) for the 2 first locations in the location list.
- If doesn't make sense...

Play a couple of random level 3 DD scenarios considering #=5

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is now 9

Add level 6 CotCC cards in the vault
Remove level 3 banes (and selected boons) from the vault
Return all Harrows of the level 6 suit to the vault so that players have a full set to Draw for
Draw random blessings to complete deck if needed
Play all level 6 CotCC scenarios
Return your level 6 Harrow to the vault

Your max number of feats per type (skill, power, card) is now 10 (and won't go above)
To insure proper difficulty, from now on add 3 wildcards during each scenario AND use the Large location build (rather that the medium) for the 3 first locations in the location list.
- If doesn't make sense...

Play the last couple of random level 3 DD scenarios considering #=6

Remove level 4 banes (and selected boons) from the vault
Play the level 7 CotCC scenario

We'll tell you how it goes, we are half-way done (finishing 3 CotCC and starting 3 DD) and seems cool up to now.

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Wow! Nice way to have an epic campaign

A friend and I have finished dragons demand, when playing mission from 1-3 of Crimson throne do we get the hero points for completing them.

Also where is it listed about the 3 wildcards for continuing players.

That depends, rexx. You have two options - the reward for Dragon's Demand lists:

DD AP reward wrote:
You may play your character in another Adventure Path starting with adventure 1. Build the Vault with all of its level 0, 1, 2, and 3 cards, and treat # as 3 during adventures 1, 2, and 3.

The second option is in the CoCT introduction:

CoCT storybook, page 3 wrote:
… or bring in characters who have started The Dragon's Demand Adventure Path first. … you should add (choose) one wildcard for every adventure in DD that the players have completed; also, increase # by the # of the last scenario you completed, and treat encountered banes' levels as higher by that same #.

Choose whichever you want. The second option allows you to have up to 9 skill feats eventually instead of 6 (the bonus 7th adventure does not give you hero points) and the same for cards and powers.

I don't like that there are two incompatible rules and you can choose which one to follow. Also, there is a slight loophole in CoCT option - you can finish DD and then replay some scenario in adventure 1 to get #:=#+1; in that way, you loose any level 2 or 3 cards while replaying, but it is still a small loophole.

Thank you, have not read the intro as I figured it was part of the story and waiting till we stated it.

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Jenceslav wrote:
The second option allows you to have up to 9 skill feats eventually instead of 6 (the bonus 7th adventure does not give you hero points) and the same for cards and powers.

We haven't tried this yet, but don't forget that if you already played through CoCT once before, the Reward for CoCT 7A says

Reward wrote:
When you replay this Adventure Path, each character starts with a feat of each type and your maximum number of each type of feat is equal to the # of the last scenario you completed + 1

So for us we're thinking:

Play DD starting with Adventure 1, #=1, feat cap =1

Finish DD Ad 3, #=3, feat cap =3

Start CoCT 1, #=3+1=4, feat cap = (last #=3)+1=4, gain 7A Reward feats #4*

After CoCT 1A, cap = #+1 = 4+1 = 5

Last cap increase is CoCT 6, #=6+3=9, feat cap is now 9+1=10

* - I suppose you could parse the reward to mean that since you are starting the CoCT AP with 3 feats already from DD, maybe you don't get feat #4 for free since it doesn't say "starts with an extra feat of each type" though that sounds overly nitpicky. Still, the cap would still be +1 and there is an "extra" hero point in each Adventure, so you could eventually make up the difference.

I did not include the bonus for finishing CoCT 7A, as it would complicate things for rexx2264, but you are right that you can get up to #=9 and actual_feat_limit=10 - if the rewards stack.
One thing it took me a while to decypher - apparently you cannot spend hero points to gain feats later, so you cannot "store them" and spend them later. That is why the feat limit is not 11 (finished 7A for the second time with a different character that went through DD: 7+3(DD "bonus")+1(CoCT 7A reward)), but 10 :) If there was a hero point awarded for 7A, you could have any combination of 11 / 10 / 10 for card/skill/power feats :-D But that could break/test the limits of the game, though, with 12 power feats, 10 card feats and 15 skill feats. :-D