The spell says you can bring "passengers" along as long as everyone holds hands. What if a creature without hands casts it? Can it still bring people along? I was thinking if they touch it's claws/tentacles/whatever they get shifted just as if they were holding hands.
That seems like it would give an unfair advantage to many-tentacled abominations from beyond space and time. Man, I hate those guys.
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Yea, basically as long as everyone can touch each other, it's all fine, or thus we've always ruled it.
Tangent question: is there any indication of how common rods attuned to planes are supposed to be? I've had GMs where anyone can have all those they want, and others where basically they don't exist.
Tangent question: is there any indication of how common rods attuned to planes are supposed to be? I've had GMs where anyone can have all those they want, and others where basically they don't exist.
Good question. This always bothered me as the rule is usually if they don't list a component cost you shouldn't keep track and just assume the characters have it unless they don't have their component pouch. There's no cost for the rods listed so should you just assume they have one for EVERY plane (even obscure ones like Jandelay?)
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Tangent question: is there any indication of how common rods attuned to planes are supposed to be? I've had GMs where anyone can have all those they want, and others where basically they don't exist.
There wasn't for a long time, but Planar Adventures goes into this on pages 85-86 (too much material to quote here).
While we're on the subject, why is plane shift always off target from where you intend to go? Has there been even a fig leaf of justification for this?
The availability of the material component to reach various planes is not covered in the rules. So it becomes a DM call.
Personally, I feel that it is ludicrous to suppose that any and all of them are available in any standard spell component pouch. The spell component pouch is an abstraction meant to avoid endless book-keeping for player wizards. It is assumed that with their vast intelligence and meticulous preparation, they use off-camera time to prepare all the hinky components thay need for various spells. IMHO this specific spell should require extensive research and preparation for each individual plane a wizards wants to reach. Spells like legend lore and contact other planes would be good ways to perform this research, as would various bardic knowledge checks. It shouldn't be so difficult as to make it impossible, but it should have a cost and opportunity requirement prior to spellcasting. I would require the wizard to inventory specific planar focii for any use of the spell.
Another, less niggling DM could easily handwave the requirement, but that's on him. I haven't read pages 84-85 of planar adventures, but I expect it's quite similar to what I'm suggesting.
OK, I got curious and went and read it. Yes, they assign specific cost to these tuning forks, and describe a method for properly tuning one: it generally requires you to go there and spend 24 hours tuning it properly. Aside from that, one could easily imagine finding pre-tuned forks in the loot of powerful wizards. A great quest opportunity if I've ever seen one. <g>
While we're on the subject, why is plane shift always off target from where you intend to go? Has there been even a fig leaf of justification for this?
You're teleporting somewhere (which has a chance of being off-target), but it's on another plane. Going to another plane adds wobbliness.
I think the original idea pre-PF was to avoid having two plane shifts making a single teleport. Role protection for magic-users (now called wizards.)
While we're on the subject, why is plane shift always off target from where you intend to go? Has there been even a fig leaf of justification for this?
Game balance. Plane Shift is already a great 5th level spell for getting rid of enemies, escaping danger, etc.
If you could additionally use it for Scry & Fry surprise attacks, by shifting away from the Material Plane and back again, it would be too good.
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You mean your question about how common the forks are?
Common - the 19 major planes (20 counting the material)
Uncommon - major demiplanes and deeper layers of the Big 19 (like Hell’s lower levels).
Rare - obscure, insignificant, or difficult-to-travel-to demiplanes.
Unique - lost, forgotten, or deliberately hard to reach demiplanes.
Prices in a Store:
Common - 100 gp
Uncommon - 2,000 gp
Rare - 20,000 gp
Unique - Priceless
You can “tune your own” by using a 25gp untuned fork. Easy to do for a common plane, but progressively harder and more time-consuming with increased rarity. Past common, the book gives guidelines but essentially the GM is going to have to manufacture a situation where the PCs can turn forks.
Does the Planar Adventures cover anything specific with respect to wizards personal demiplanes?
Do they fall under rare or unique? Is there anyway for someone who wasn't the wizard to attune a rod to that wizard's demiplane?
Basically I just want an answer to the question of: How hard is it for someone who isn't the create of a demiplane to reach that demiplane. I assume a wizard would have a rod attuned to their demiplane that they created, but lets assume you can't get that rod (because the rod is with the wizard on the demiplane and the wizard is astrally projecting).
Can anyone reach the wizard and threaten them?
It doesn't mention wizards' personal demiplanes in particular, but the unique category does specifically include "deliberately difficult-to-reach dimensions." But no matter the rarity, tuning an untuned fork has to be done on the (demi)plane in question. Use wish to get there the first time, I guess. Though you might have to stay a while, too; as Belafon said, the tuning is progressively harder and more time-consuming with increased rarity. Here's unique plane tuning.
Attuning an untuned fork to a unique plane or dimension requires a specific task for that plane. For example, attuning a fork to a legendary vampire’s personal demiplane might require a player to plunge the tuning fork into the heart of a vampire native to that plane and then allow the fork 13 days to absorb the planar energies before it becomes fully attuned.
So if we can replace "legendary vampire" with "13th level wizard" we might imagine something similar difficult.
*Based on legend lore anyone level 11 or above is "legendary".
So in general the answer is you need Wish to reach the demiplane the first time, unless you somehow manage to get the wizards already attuned rod from them.
Are there any rules in the book for what "deliberately hard to reach" planes are? Are there any rules for making planes harder to reach?
So if we can replace "legendary vampire" with "13th level wizard" we might imagine something similar difficult.
*Based on legend lore anyone level 11 or above is "legendary".
I think they're using a different definition of "legendary" here, as tuning a merely rare fork is described as suitable for level 15+.
A rare tuning fork is one attuned to an obscure demiplane, a demiplane that is simply difficult to travel to due to its nature, or a demiplane that is particularly small and insignificant. Planes mentioned in this book that require rare tuning forks include the Dead Vault, the Harrowed Realm, and Jandelay.
Attuning a rare tuning fork is done using the same method as an uncommon fork, but the fork must be struck against an artifact created on that plane, a creature of CR 21 or higher native to the plane, or a unique or specific feature of the plane that you determine—such features are generally well guarded and difficult to reach, and thus they should require relatively high-level play (15th level or above) to use. Once so struck, the fork must be allowed to absorb the plane’s energies for 1 week. After this time has passed, the untuned fork is attuned to that plane.
(Everything about "the same method as an uncommon fork" is spelled out in the above, I don't know why they included that clause.)
So in general the answer is you need Wish to reach the demiplane the first time, unless you somehow manage to get the wizards already attuned rod from them.
Well, create demiplane makes you one somewhere in the Astral or Ethereal. In theory if you have a way of finding it there you can go and just use anything that lets you move through that plane, as per
Creatures can only enter the plane by the use of planar travel magic such as astral projection, etherealness, or plane shift.
So if you have a divination to find a demiplane in the midst of the astral/ethereal, you're set. (Would discern location work?) Otherwise, wish it is.
Are there any rules in the book for what "deliberately hard to reach" planes are? Are there any rules for making planes harder to reach?
Not that I could find.
I've always imagined the demiplanes as a sub-plane of the Ethereal or Astral planes, but you still need planar magic to get to it even from plane its a sub part of. Is it clarified at all otherwise?
Because if you can just "walk" from the Astral plane into someone's demiplane....it just doesn't make sense. Why do you have a "finite" plane. What happens at the boundary? You can have timeless demiplanes, can you randomly and accidentally stumble into one?
This line:
Creatures can only enter the plane by the use of planar travel magic such as astral projection, etherealness, or plane shift. You are considered “very familiar” with your entire demiplane.
Would seem to backup that you can't walk from the Astral plane into the demiplane, even if it is a sub-plane of the Astral. Otherwise to me they would say somethign like, "You can enter the demiplane via planar travel magic or moving from the major plane it resides in".
Honestly I find the idea of stumbling into demiplanes to be really weird and not at all how I envisioned the spell to work.
I've always imagined the demiplanes as a sub-plane of the Ethereal or Astral planes, but you still need planar magic to get to it even from plane its a sub part of. Is it clarified at all otherwise?
Because if you can just "walk" from the Astral plane into someone's demiplane....it just doesn't make sense. Why do you have a "finite" plane. What happens at the boundary? You can have timeless demiplanes, can you randomly and accidentally stumble into one?
Dunno about the boundaries, but you can stumble into at least some of the demiplanes on the Astral/Ethereal.
Although much of the Ethereal Plane is empty space, there are spots of solid matter scattered throughout the plane. Some of these are the size of worlds, at which point they become demiplanes, as with Xibalba (see page 219).
Xibalba’s nature defies narrow classification. From the outside, it appears to be a seamless part of the Ethereal Plane, and unsuspecting ethereal travelers can wander right into it. Xibalba’s borders reach out unpredictably into the ethereal mists, answering to both their own hunger and the sahkils’ will. As an alternative to simply walking in from the Ethereal Plane, however, brave and foolhardy souls who wish to journey to Xibalba of their own volition can reach it directly using planar travel magic. Most such magic functions with cruel accuracy, depositing crusaders in front of the broken souls they wished to rescue or desperate lovers in front of the shattered remnants of their partners.
This line:
Creatures can only enter the plane by the use of planar travel magic such as astral projection, etherealness, or plane shift. You are considered “very familiar” with your entire demiplane.Would seem to backup that you can't walk from the Astral plane into the demiplane, even if it is a sub-plane of the Astral. Otherwise to me they would say somethign like, "You can enter the demiplane via planar travel magic or moving from the major plane it resides in".
I read that as saying that you can astrally project there the same way you would anywhere else, i.e. project to the Astral, wander around, find the border of a (demi)plane, project into it. Or similarly for the Ethereal. If the only way there was plane shift or wish they wouldn't list astral projection or etherealness as methods of getting there. Also, if you can't get there from the "host plane" more easily than from the Material plane, why would they bother specifying that your demiplane can be either in the Astral or the Ethereal? It doesn't change its properties AFAICT.
Weird. I never pictured the fork itself as having any magical properties. It was simply sized for the plane's resonant frequency. But "plunging it into a vampire and leaving it for 13 days to soak up the plane's energies" puts a different spin on things. Methinks the designers conflated "tuning" with "attunement", which isn't exactly wrong but a bit of a stretch. I'll stick with my method--forks are cheap but frequencies are heavily guarded secrets.
@Fuzzy-Wuzzy - That's interesting, so there is at least some indication that for at least some demiplanes you can stumble right into them.
I don't think I actually care for that. It just doesn't jibe with how I imagine demiplanes working. Because otherwise create demiplane spell is really more like "reshape part of the astral/ethereal plane as you wish spell".
@blahpers: I think the designers didn't want it to be possible to copy (and even mass-produce) forks to somewhere obscure based on having obtained one fork with the right frequency.
@Claxon: Not sure how I feel about it; people randomly wandering onto the wizard's personal demiplane is lame (especially for high-level wizards), but absolutely having to use wish to get there for a first visit is kind of lame too (especially for only mid-level wizards).
@blahpers: I think the designers didn't want it to be possible to copy (and even mass-produce) forks to somewhere obscure based on having obtained one fork with the right frequency.
Fair enough, but true names are a thing for outsiders, and they get by okay. A high level wizard receiving an unwelcome number of unexpected guests had best (a) recreate their demiplane and (b) take appropriate steps such that prospective fork manufacturers are sufficiently respectful of a high level wizard's privacy. Preferably steps involving instantaneous transmutations and/or smoking ruins.
@blahpers: I think the designers didn't want it to be possible to copy (and even mass-produce) forks to somewhere obscure based on having obtained one fork with the right frequency.Fair enough, but true names are a thing for outsiders, and we get by okay. A high level wizard receiving an unwelcome number of unexpected guests had best (a) recreate their demiplane and (b) take appropriate steps such that prospective fork manufacturers are sufficiently respectful of a high level wizard's privacy. Preferably steps involving instantaneous transmutations and/or smoking ruins.
All true. Maybe the wizard could use a wish to change their demiplane's "frequency" and avoid having to re-create the whole thing.
[a bunch of good stuff]
Discern Location might do the trick but it's range is Unlimited ... which means it is limited to the same plane of existence. Clearly the demiplane itself is not or there would be no need for planar travel magic to access it. Likewise even if you know a tremendous amount of information about the wizard themselves if they are currently on another plane (such as within their demiplane) they are out of range (assuming you've found a wizard who isn't mentally protected by Mind Blank). You might be able to somehow find the entrance or more specifically the stone and mortar gatehouse protecting the portal.
Since discern location specifies that it tells you the plane of existence the target is on, I believe it could work despite the Range entry, which is probably Unlimited only because that's as high as the official ranges get (which is pretty bogus). But I'm not sure a created demiplane has enough of an "address" in the Astral/Ethereal for even discern location's information to lead you to it. Maybe if you're on the right host plane it could just give you "that way, 426 miles."
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This thread is starting to look at a Star Trek battle where they keep changing the shields frequency^^
"Fork you all, interlopers!"
Where are you getting your information? I never seen anything like this when reading the plane shift spell.You mean your question about how common the forks are?
Common - the 19 major planes (20 counting the material)
Uncommon - major demiplanes and deeper layers of the Big 19 (like Hell’s lower levels).
Rare - obscure, insignificant, or difficult-to-travel-to demiplanes.
Unique - lost, forgotten, or deliberately hard to reach demiplanes.Prices in a Store:
Common - 100 gp
Uncommon - 2,000 gp
Rare - 20,000 gp
Unique - PricelessYou can “tune your own” by using a 25gp untuned fork. Easy to do for a common plane, but progressively harder and more time-consuming with increased rarity. Past common, the book gives guidelines but essentially the GM is going to have to manufacture a situation where the PCs can turn forks.
Planar Adventures goes into great detail about planar tuning forks.
Planar Adventures goes into great detail about planar tuning forks.Where are you getting your information? I never seen anything like this when reading the plane shift spell.You mean your question about how common the forks are?
Common - the 19 major planes (20 counting the material)
Uncommon - major demiplanes and deeper layers of the Big 19 (like Hell’s lower levels).
Rare - obscure, insignificant, or difficult-to-travel-to demiplanes.
Unique - lost, forgotten, or deliberately hard to reach demiplanes.Prices in a Store:
Common - 100 gp
Uncommon - 2,000 gp
Rare - 20,000 gp
Unique - PricelessYou can “tune your own” by using a 25gp untuned fork. Easy to do for a common plane, but progressively harder and more time-consuming with increased rarity. Past common, the book gives guidelines but essentially the GM is going to have to manufacture a situation where the PCs can turn forks.
And if you don't have Planar Adventures . . . Ta-da!