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I just debuted Bobbobs, my skittermander Soldier 1/Envoy 1 (using a particular SFS boon to start at level 2) with a very peculiar support build... With Intelligence 11, he's not great on his Expertise Talent of Computers, but by character level 4 he'll have Expert Advice and start regularly adding 1d6+2 (or more) to Aid Another hacking attempts. Over time he'll add Engineering, Intimidation, Culture, and Diplomacy to his Expertise talent list and essentially be the ultimate IT Consultant.
Oh, and he also has 18 Dex and packs a Static Arc Caster, because groups have a better chance of accepting an Envoy that isn't particularly good at his Expertise talents if he can also dish out a pile of damage.
For Improvisations I'm mostly going the Improved Get 'Em/Quick Dispiriting Taunt route, mostly because I find an Intimidation-based skittermander to be a hilarious idea.
This sounds like a pretty fun build actually. I might imitate that.
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I just debuted Bobbobs, my skittermander Soldier 1/Envoy 1 (using a particular SFS boon to start at level 2) with a very peculiar support build... With Intelligence 11, he's not great on his Expertise Talent of Computers, but by character level 4 he'll have Expert Advice and start regularly adding 1d6+2 (or more) to Aid Another hacking attempts. Over time he'll add Engineering, Intimidation, Culture, and Diplomacy to his Expertise talent list and essentially be the ultimate IT Consultant.This sounds like a pretty fun build actually. I might imitate that.
My thought is that it is incredibly common for a group to have someone with high Computers and/or Engineering, so why not lean into assisting them? It's very skittermander to help.
Expert Advice is a sneaky candidate for best player option in Armory.
Expert Advice is a sneaky candidate for best player option in Armory.
It is so powerful, but so hard to build for. In order for it to work right, your Envoy can't be the best in the party at their own Expertise talents, and the fact that you can't get it until Envoy level 3 means that you're walking around with some damn mediocre skills until then.
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Expert Advice is a sneaky candidate for best player option in Armory.It is so powerful, but so hard to build for. In order for it to work right, your Envoy can't be the best in the party at their own Expertise talents, and the fact that you can't get it until Envoy level 3 means that you're walking around with some damn mediocre skills until then.
It's also got a hidden nerf built into it.
As an insight bonus it won't stack with any insight bonuses of the other party member doing the skill. In starfinder, someone in your party doing a skill probably has an insight bonus to it (it's hard to be reasonably good at a skill without one). Makes it mildly annoying to figure out the skill total
It's still good.
Also now picturing a skittermander helping a hacker by holding up burritos, mountain dew, a spare keyboard and a wi fi radio antenna....
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Expert Advice is a sneaky candidate for best player option in Armory.It is so powerful, but so hard to build for. In order for it to work right, your Envoy can't be the best in the party at their own Expertise talents, and the fact that you can't get it until Envoy level 3 means that you're walking around with some damn mediocre skills until then.It's also got a hidden nerf built into it.
As an insight bonus it won't stack with any insight bonuses of the other party member doing the skill. In starfinder, someone in your party doing a skill probably has an insight bonus to it (it's hard to be reasonably good at a skill without one). Makes it mildly annoying to figure out the skill total
It's still good.
Yeah, I don't regard that as a nerf but as a potential boost to your skill expert with the insight bonus. He provides his normal floor (with a better attribute for Int tasks), the envoy provides a higher ceiling if he rolls well.
Yeah, I don't regard that as a nerf but as a potential boost to your skill expert with the insight bonus. He provides his normal floor (with a better attribute for Int tasks), the envoy provides a higher ceiling if he rolls well.It's also got a hidden nerf built into it.
As an insight bonus it won't stack with any insight bonuses of the other party member doing the skill. In starfinder, someone in your party doing a skill probably has an insight bonus to it (it's hard to be reasonably good at a skill without one). Makes it mildly annoying to figure out the skill total
It's still good.
Well, you are correct that it isn't any sort of appreciable nerf (it can't result in a WORSE Insight bonus), but BNW is also correct that it isn't quite as good as it looks at first blush.
Still, I can see this as being of great help to, say, a Biohacker tech specialist if they end up not getting Insight bonuses in their final incarnation.
I think what I am going to do is simply ask the tech specialist what their insight bonus is and lower my "effective" bonus by that amount (to a minimum of +2 for regular assisting) when I declare it. In my local groups everyone who assists generally just holds up two fingers to show that they assisted. I may need two hands to show how much Bobbobs is helping...
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I may need two hands to show how much Bobbobs is helping...
you're playing a skittermander bring extra
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I'm looking to build a Pahtra Envoy for SFS who is a rock star type...based on what I am seeing here, it is looking like I should focus in the Get 'em inspirations first, then maybe move on to the feint inspirations?
What should I be looking at for feats? I'll be starting at level 2 thanks to a boon. I've got loads of experience in Pathfinder and fantasy RPGs...feeling a little lost in the Starfinder sci-fi setting.
I'm looking to build a Pahtra Envoy for SFS who is a rock star type...based on what I am seeing here, it is looking like I should focus in the Get 'em inspirations first, then maybe move on to the feint inspirations?
What should I be looking at for feats? I'll be starting at level 2 thanks to a boon. I've got loads of experience in Pathfinder and fantasy RPGs...feeling a little lost in the Starfinder sci-fi setting.
The "support efficiency" build for Envoys goes a little something like this:
Lvl - Improvisation
1 - Clever Feint
2 - Get 'Em!
4 - Clever Attack
6 - Improved Get 'Em!
...and then whatever you want after that. This gives your party the biggest bonuses to hit the fastest, and allows you to start attacking yourself by level 4. By level 6 you are swinging your side's attack rolls by 4, which is huge.
That said, this is by no means the only good Envoy build. Your party may need healing, in which case throwing Inspiring Boost in there may be your best bet (though it throws off completing the rest of the build until level 8). In this version you take Get 'Em! first so you can still use your standard action to Boost.
Lvl - Improvisation
1 - Get 'Em!
2 - Inspiring Boost
4 - Clever Feint
6 - Improved Get 'Em!
8 - Clever Attack
There are some schools of thought that suggest that you dispense with the Clever/Get 'Em! route and just focus on one of the two (probably Get 'Em! because it is a move action) so you can shoot more. In this path you may want to grab a level of Soldier so you can pick up the biggest, baddest unwieldy heavy weapon possible to make the most use from your standard action attack each round. Get Hurry to play chessmaster with your team on the rounds you're not shooting.
Lvl - Improvisation
1 - (Blitz or Sharp Shooter Soldier)
2 - Get 'Em!
3 - I dunno, Look Alive or Watch Your Step or something
5 - Hurry
7 - Improved Get 'Em!
9 - Improved Hurry
As for feats, there are some schools of thought. With my Witchwyrd Envoy, Dr. Zorkfeld, I designed him to be a flanking buddy to our Solarian, so I took:
Lvl - Feat
1 - Heavy Armor
3 - Coordinated Shot
5 - Unfriendly Fire
7 - Antagonize
9 - Great Fortitude (Envoy Fortitude is terrible)
11 - Medical Expert (he's a doctor, after all)
For Bobbobs, my Skittermander Blitz Soldier/Envoy who is the shooty type, I will just be going with a standard suite of fighting feats.
Lvl - Feat
1 - Improved Initiative (great for putting Get 'Em! out there fast)
3 - Weapon Focus (Heavy Weapons)
5 - Versatile Specialization
7 - Extra Resolve (those Improvs can be heavy on Resolve use)
9 - Mobility
11 - Shot on the Run
For a "typical" squishy Envoy, I'd maybe go:
Lvl - Feat
1 - Improved Initiative
3 - Mobility
5 - Fleet
7 - Extra Resolve
9 - Great Fortitude
11 - Nimble Moves
This is probably terrible, but I don't make "typical" builds much.
Other feats to look at:
Improved Demoralize (arguably better than Dispiriting Taunt)
Veiled Threat
Fast Talk
Improved Feint
Greater Feint (again, arguably better than Clever Feint)
Amplified Glitch
Anyway, this was way too long. I gotta go to work...
Improved Demoralize has a lower opportunity cost, but I don't see any way to argue that it isn't strictly worse than quickened dispiriting taunt.
I second HammerJack. Also, Greater Feint is not better than Clever Attack. The effect is better, but it's less reliable. Overall, Clever Attack is better if you have Get'Em.
Improved Demoralize has a lower opportunity cost, but I don't see any way to argue that it isn't strictly worse than quickened dispiriting taunt.
It can last more than one round. Dispiriting Taunt only ever lasts one round, but you can sometimes squeeze multiple rounds out of a regular Demoralize... AND you can use Intimidate Expertise Talents (such as Menacing Gaze or Rattling Presence) with Demoralize that don't work with Dispiriting Taunt.
Ironically the best Intimidate build for Envoys doesn't use Dispiriting Taunt, or uses it in addition to Improved Demoralize. Stack some Dragonblooded with Rattling Presence and everybody you look at funny will be Shaken until their untimely demise.
That is a good point about duration, though I will note that menacing gaze does not interact with improved demoralize at all. I was thinking more about the range limits, which have been the big downside to using improved demoralize in my experience with it.
Also, don't forget the ferocity blazon!
Improved Demoralize has a lower opportunity cost, but I don't see any way to argue that it isn't strictly worse than quickened dispiriting taunt.It can last more than one round. Dispiriting Taunt only ever lasts one round, but you can sometimes squeeze multiple rounds out of a regular Demoralize... AND you can use Intimidate Expertise Talents (such as Menacing Gaze or Rattling Presence) with Demoralize that don't work with Dispiriting Taunt.
Ironically the best Intimidate build for Envoys doesn't use Dispiriting Taunt, or uses it in addition to Improved Demoralize. Stack some Dragonblooded with Rattling Presence and everybody you look at funny will be Shaken until their untimely demise.
There's also a magic item, the Ferocity Blazon, that doubles demoralize durations so you get a minimum of two rounds.
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That is a good point about duration, though I will note that menacing gaze does not interact with improved demoralize at all. I was thinking more about the range limits, which have been the big downside to using improved demoralize in my experience with it.
Also, don't forget the ferocity blazon!
Ah, I missed the bit about Menacing Gaze being a full action. Good catch!
Anyway, I have three characters that focus on Intimidate right now.
War Hound - Deathtouched Half-Orc Hellknight Order of the Pike Solarian, will use Challenge to attack and Demoralize simultaneously.
Zalibraxis, Dragonbot - Dragonblooded SRO Augmented Shock & Awe Soldier, will use Shock & Awe level 5 ability to attack and Demoralize (potentially everyone in an attack radius) simultaneously.
Bobbobs! - Skittermander Blitz Soldier/Envoy, Uses Dispiriting Taunt. I'm using all of my Expertise Talents after getting Expert Advice to simply get more Expertise Skills, so I have little need of going the Improved Demoralize route. Bobbobs is an IT Consultant, and his taunt is going to be, "We're going to have to let you go. Please pack up your desk."
For each of these, I'm definitely going to be packing Grim Trophies (Bobbobs's will be a briefcase full of pink slips), a Ferocity Blazon, Vampire Voice, the voice enhancer, and whatever else will help that Intimidate check. >:D
How are you combining the Vampire Voice and voice enhancer (I assume the voice amplifier cyber augment)? I think it's only possible via vercite race ability (double enhancements in one slot if one is cyber) or Augmented archetype (double enhancements of any type in one slot). The other double enhancements (biotechnician theme and Geneturge mystic) require that both be biotech, which the Vampire Voice, alas, cannot meet.
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How are you combining the Vampire Voice and voice enhancer? I think it's only possible via vercite race ability (double enhancements in one slot if one is cyber) or Augmented archetype (double enhancements of any type in one slot). The other double enhancements (biotechnician theme and Geneturge mystic) require that both be biotech, which the Vampire Voice, alas, cannot meet.
Good catch. The only one that can do that is Zalibraxis, Dragonbot, who is Augmented. War Hound worships Pharasma and would only get the voice enhancer, as necrografts would be sacrilege, and Bobbobs will get the Vampire Voice because it's upgradable and allows him to bully people who don't know his language.
Dispiriting Taunt Failing will always get your target Off-target if your target makes his save. So you will always get something opposed to the target making their save.
Technically there is no save. It's an Intimidate check of DC 15 + 1.5xCR or 10 + Intimidate, whichever is higher.
Considering that an Intimidate-focused level 5 Envoy can pretty comfortably rock about +18 on that check (conservatively), and an equal CR creature's DC will probably be around 22, I'm not EXTREMELY worried about having a fallback Off-Target effect for failure when I roll a 3 or less.
Also given those odds, the chances of getting 5 or more over the DC and getting an extra round or two of Shaken are... also pretty good, wheras rolling extra high on Dispiriting Taunt nets no extra effect and you have to do the whole song and dance next round, too.
It occurred to me this morning that there is yet another reason to use Demoralize over Dispiriting Taunt: It's a Sense-Dependent ability, and that's all. You can demoralize an akata, a patrol robot, or a drift dead as long as it can see or hear you.
Dispiriting Taunt is language dependent and mind-affecting as well, which means you can't affect most animals, constructs, or undead. Kinda a bummer.
Demoralize
As a standard action, you can use Intimidate to cause a creature within 30 feet of you to become shaken for a number of rounds. This is a sense-dependent ability. The DC of this check is equal to either 10 + your opponent’s total Intimidate skill bonus, or 15 + 1-1/2 × the opponent’s CR, whichever is greater. If you succeed, the target is shaken for 1 round. The duration increases by 1 round for every 5 by which the result of your check exceeds the DC.
Huh. Shaken isn't a fear effect anymore is it...
They'll probably errata that in 2026.
Shaken is a fear and mind-affecting condition. It may be something they forgot, but no sane DM will accept a robot to be shaken :D
Shaken is a fear and mind-affecting condition. It may be something they forgot, but no sane DM will accept a robot to be shaken :D
Counterpoint: Sentient Undead having immunity to Mind-Affecting doesn't make sense and allowing them to be Shaken through Demoralize is a step in the right direction.
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Also, if any DM thinks I'd listen when they tell me I can't shake my robot baby or robot spouse... well, that's not a DM I want to play with.
Shaking your robot baby/spouse is how you reboot them, isn't it? The factory started making them with vibration sensors.
Shaken is a fear and mind-affecting condition. :D
It was in pathfinder, did they say so for starfinder?
Shaken
Source Starfinder Core Rulebook pg. 277
You take a –2 penalty to attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks while you have the shaken condition. If you are already shaken and then become subject to an additional effect that would cause you to be shaken, the duration of the shaken condition increases by the duration of the second effect.
It REEEAALLLY feels like an oversight, but I don't see anything applying those descriptors.
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Seems like you can apply the same twice. With Improved Demoralize you could do two demoralizes in one round to stack duration.
Cool!
Seems like you can apply the same twice. With Improved Demoralize you could do two demoralizes in one round to stack duration.
It seems like it might also apply to Quick Dispiriting Taunt, which would be an interesting way around its limited duration.
Don't get me wrong, it's still better in my book to just do an Improved Demoralize with Frightful Presence.