A Discussion on Envoys


General Discussion

101 to 150 of 190 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I really don't get why people like clever feint

1) There's a roll involved. Even if it's an easy one with the right resources its still not the guarantee that get em is

2) Its available (albeit slightly later) with feats. How many classes would kill to have an Extra gearboost/improv/ exploit/? Improved feint and greater Feint functionally give you that.

3) It competes with other methods of giving people flat footed. Operatives are a really, really, good class (so the odds of having one in a party are pretty high) and their non flat footed options are kinda meh for either requiring a save or just not working on a lot of enemy types. Other methods give real flat footed, not just the AC penalty.

If you are CHA focused (16-18 at level 1, preferably 18), and didn't get DEX to do anything else. You can get it at level 4 vs level 6 for improved get 'em, or level 7 for reliable trick attacks from the operative. Retraining IS a thing. I could see picking it up, then retraining for don't quit and hurry instead.

If there isn't an operative, functionally +4 to hit for the rest of the party is pretty big depending on party.

It isn't a jack of all trades option. Get 'em is plain better, but clever attack/feint combos with it for the right party. You also get it a lot earlier than greater feint.

From my limited understanding of SFS I wouldn't grab it.


Lightning Raven wrote:
I think the idea is to use Improved Get'em as a move for the +2 and then use Clever Attack for a total of +4 to hit for everyone. Also, it's because there's very little good options

Don't quit isn't bad and unlike everything else on the envoy menu gets better without further investment, becoming amazing at 6th and holy bleep at 12th

Even right off the bat, your party being confused is the fastest way to a TPK around. Being able to take one of the people confusion locked for a round and stuff them into a locker is situational but clutch.

Staggered will absolutely shut down melee characters if your DM is evil. Just hit them and 5 foot away from them. They can't melee hit back.

Hurry is okay to good on it's own and becomes the best buff in the game with some more investment.

Its like these young whippersnappers don't want to break out an excel sheet and an evil plan to rule the world and 4d graph paper *grumble grumbl grumble*

Quote:
From my limited understanding of SFS I wouldn't grab it.

From a LOT of sfs i wouldn't grab it either. Most of the reason you wouldn't have an operative in the group is because that would imply singular...


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Just wanted to say you guys pointed out some great tactical advantages with envoy abilities I was not aware of- thanks! : )


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Pogiforce wrote:
My current SFS Envoy, who is a pacifist and will be a field medic, currently has Inspiring Boost, Don't Quit, and Long-Range Improvisations. I plan to take Bedside Manner and Quick Quaff at some point, with the character running around dispensing healing in various ways. That leaves me 2 more improvs on the path to level 12. I'm thinking hurry could be something I can do if I don't need to / can't boost somebody. Though Watch out looks promising come level 8, being able to buff an Ally's AC by 4 as a reaction. Watch your step might be good too.

I have found healing builds to be very situational in PFS. The situation usually being AOE damage. The kind of buffs needed to make not shooting something a viable option for a character just really don't exist yet.

For single target healing anyone with a spell throwing weapon and a spell gem of mystic cure 1 can walk up to the meatshield and hand then 1d8+20 hit points and rely on their staminia to get them back around a corner.

It really depends on your table. For example, that will never happen where I live because no one who plays here has a mystic. I don't think anyone but me and my sister have even given them a serious look. So no Mystic Cures. And the only weapon fusions anyone has taken are called and throwing.


Pogiforce wrote:

It really depends on your table. For example, that will never happen where I live because no one who plays here has a mystic. I don't think anyone but me and my sister have even given them a serious look. So no Mystic Cures. And the only weapon fusions anyone has taken are called and throwing.

What your character does for the amount of investment they have in healing seems incredibly inefficient. I get trying for the theme I just don't think the mechanical support for it is really there yet.

You could always try the spellthrower infusion trick yourself. If you're a pacifist anyway just get a level 4 stun gun plop on the infusion and try it out.

Needing a healer seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy. Most groups with everyone contributing to damage can burn down most non boss encounters before going too far into HP.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Pogiforce wrote:
My current SFS Envoy, who is a pacifist and will be a field medic, currently has Inspiring Boost, Don't Quit, and Long-Range Improvisations. I plan to take Bedside Manner and Quick Quaff at some point, with the character running around dispensing healing in various ways. That leaves me 2 more improvs on the path to level 12. I'm thinking hurry could be something I can do if I don't need to / can't boost somebody. Though Watch out looks promising come level 8, being able to buff an Ally's AC by 4 as a reaction. Watch your step might be good too.

I have found healing builds to be very situational in PFS. The situation usually being AOE damage. The kind of buffs needed to make not shooting something a viable option for a character just really don't exist yet.

For single target healing anyone with a spell throwing weapon and a spell gem of mystic cure 1 can walk up to the meatshield and hand then 1d8+20 hit points and rely on their staminia to get them back around a corner.

Poor action economy, spell thrower casting is a full round action. Hope your meatshield can stand there and take it one more round after you move up next to him.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Pogiforce wrote:

It really depends on your table. For example, that will never happen where I live because no one who plays here has a mystic. I don't think anyone but me and my sister have even given them a serious look. So no Mystic Cures. And the only weapon fusions anyone has taken are called and throwing.

What your character does for the amount of investment they have in healing seems incredibly inefficient. I get trying for the theme I just don't think the mechanical support for it is really there yet.

You could always try the spellthrower infusion trick yourself. If you're a pacifist anyway just get a level 4 stun gun plop on the infusion and try it out.

Needing a healer seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy. Most groups with everyone contributing to damage can burn down most non boss encounters before going too far into HP.

Only when things go well. But if no attack is landed, then things can devolve into a dire situation quite fast.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Pogiforce wrote:
I don't remember a Starfinder playtest is all I'm saying...

It wasn't a public playtest. I do remember seeing several videos of people playtesting Starfinder before it came out.


Lightning Raven wrote:


Only when things go well. But if no attack is landed, then things can devolve into a dire situation quite fast.

I've seen some horrifically bad die rolling before but nothing that meant you'd run out of HP on an entire group before the mooks drop.

Even on the boss fights with everyone contributing, the party is fine unless there's aoe (or that one boss that functionally has 300 hp at level 7). An in between combat healer like an envoy isn't going to help those.


I took a look at spell thrower and mystic cure gems. Those... Help. But aren't perfect either. The gem is consumed in the process, and it would be 140 credits to replace. Then it would effectively take me two rounds to use. One to get into position, and one to use it. Which I realize is the same action economy as using medical expert, but medical expert uses an item that's only 50 credits.

I see your point though. No matter my approach, in combat healing as anything other than a mystic simply isn't efficient. I might still take Bedside Manner for the little bit of extra healing and the improved aid vs poison and disease, but instead of investing so heavily with my feats and abilities in pursuing being a field medic, I might want to seek other abilities that can (defensively) aid my party. I can justify hurry, I can't justify get em. quick Quaff might still be useful...

May choose culture instead of medicine for my second skill expertise, if only for the expertise talents. Tech familiarity seems useful. Though battlefield medic still looks useful mainly for the ability to combine the first aid and treat deadly wounds actions, with a free extra treat deadly wounds...

So not taking medical expert because it doesn't actually give another use of treat deadly wounds and incurs extra costs. May still take battlefield medic for the extra/combined TDW. Don't know if I'll take surgeon to go with it because battlefield medic only kicks in when first aid becomes necessary. Which, hopefully, shouldn't happen that often. Taking surgeon just for an extra battlefield medic use, especially when surgeon itself doesn't look useful (extra TDW, but taking an HOUR to do so) meh...

So thinking of medicine for skill expertise at 5, bedside manner at six, battlefield medic at 7, then I'm done with medicine until they print something worth the resources.

At 8, I don't know... Watch out, hurry, quick Quaff, focus? Level 9 expertise in culture. Level ten another one of those improvs, or Improved hurry if I took hurry. Level 11, tech familiarity, cultural savant, keen observer?.... Maybe additional skill expertise. Blah. Hard to decide.


140 credits is nothing as you level up (its a ridiculously small amount of cash past level 3), and there's this part everyone overlooks about mystic cure

On the other hand, if this isn’t enough to restore all the target’s Hit Points, you can transfer any number of your own Hit Points to the target, healing the target that amount.

So what ability do you have that can heal for 10, 20, 30 or more hit points? Do you have anything thats going to scale up to 50 HP at level 9?
Yeah, you might drop. But it will keep your fighters up.

I can't see what you're going for really being viable from a mechanical standpoint.


My ac is butt, my health and Stam squishy. I'm aware of mystic cure"s ability to top people off, but I'm hesitant to use it if it puts me in kill range. Not to mention Envoys use their resolve a lot more than the other classes. Especially since Envoys don't get cool things like evasion, or heavy armor, or a good fort save. I am the most vulnerable person on the battlefield already without weakening myself. Then there's is the fact that I can only do that once per combat, and only once altogether unless I heal myself, which, 9 times out of 10 in my case, means sinking costs into healing serums. If I'm giving away that much health, it's going to take at least 3 mk 1 serums.

Plus those are all consumables. Sure, 3 mk 1 serums are only 150 cred. Yeah, a mystic cure spell gem is only 140. But if I'm paying a minimum 290 credits per session, if not more, those costs are going to start to eat away at my ability to upgrade. Yeah, the improved medical kit cost me 2700, but at least that is something that I can use once per ally, per day, until the end of time.


I'm just at a bit of a loss as to what your envoy is doing in combat that they can't stay at full staminia and 1 hp.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
I'm just at a bit of a loss as to what your envoy is doing in combat that they can't stay at full staminia and 1 hp.

AOEs? Grenades, explosive blast, lightning bolt, etc? Dick enemies who shoot the envoy because it's an easy kill? Environmental hazards? Being surrounded, things with reach, wild predators who think the little thing in cloth makes an easier meal than the big thing covered in titanium? Frontline fighter screwing up and now they're down, and there I am standing there with 1 HP? Void hantus who just fly over the frontliners and screw with the casters and supports because their tactics say so? There are plenty of ways the envoy can get hurt. Being in the back does not automatically make me safe. My envoy is a good person who helps however they can, but they're not a martyr.


1 HP and your staminia. You should be able to take a hit or two and then resume hiding in the back.


Not taking that risk. Hiding in the back does not equal safe.

Sovereign Court

Re: haste circuit. It would be a really cool envoy ability if you could activate your teammates' implants using your actions.


Pogiforce wrote:
Not taking that risk. Hiding in the back does not equal safe.

Have you experienced resolve tanking yet?

Once you're out of HP you can stabalize 1 round and then get back in the fight the next one. PC parties are really, really hard to kill. I know, i've tried.

You're not dead or even at a whole lot of risk of dying just because you're out of health the way you would be in pathfinder.

Meanwhile if something is bothering to hit you, and then hit you while you're down, your meatshield should be tearing it apart.

How many rounds do your fights tend to last?


Ascalaphus wrote:
Re: haste circuit. It would be a really cool envoy ability if you could activate your teammates' implants using your actions.

"This won't hurt a bit"

Sovereign Court

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I think the Feint route is being undersold a bit. Yes, an operative can do the same thing with Debilitating Trick. However, that means he's doing that as debilitating trick every round and not something else.

Currently in our Dead Suns party our operative tends to open with Bleeding Shot. One shot per NPC if we're facing more than once fleshy NPC. 10 bleed per round is nothing to sneeze at, it scales quite aggresively. Combine that with my high-stamina high-DR Corona/Electrostatic Field Solarian taking center position on the battlefield and we have a potent damage over time party going on.

The thing is, an operative doing Bleeding Shot on one enemy per round isn't making people flat-footed anymore.

Looking to the future, every couple of books operatives will probably get another good debilitating trick exploit, diluting the share of operatives providing flat-footed. So the value of envoys doing it will slowly climb.


Ascalaphus wrote:
Currently in our Dead Suns party our operative tends to open with Bleeding Shot. One shot per NPC if we're facing more than once fleshy NPC

Well that's the thing

When you only have 1 monster the operatives other tricks don't work after round 1

When the operative doesn't have that ability it doesn't work

When the monster isn't a squishy it doesn't work (look at the name of the rest of the dead suns path BTW....)

When you make the giant tentacle monster "flat footed" it still aoos the meatshield on his way up.

It makes get em by far the better 2 point swing. It also means you can take the feat route instead of burning improvisations on it


BigNorseWolf wrote:
When you make the giant tentacle monster "flat footed" it still aoos the meatshield on his way up.

Wait, flat footed doesn't prevent attacks of opportunity in Starfinder?

Also, on the matter of resolve tanking, that's not how I want to play. That's not fun. It takes two full rounds to get back up that way, and eats a lot of resolve. On a class that naturally eats a lot of resolve. It doesn't help that because I wanted to be different, I chose a Shirren for my Envoy. Which does the job really well, but has less resolve than non Shirren Envoys might. So just because you are okay with resolve tanking doesn't mean I have to be.

Besides, that's not really tanking. Being hard to kill is not the same thing as a tank. Tanks take aggro and keep their allies from getting hurt. You're not doing that on the ground in a pool of your own blood.


Normal flat footed does prevent AOOs. The envoy ability being discussed doesn’t, however.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Clever Feint does not make the opponent flat-footed. It makes them "flat-footed against your allies attacks."

An envoy who wants to make enemies fully flat-footed should be using the greater feint feat line.


Pogiforce wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
When you make the giant tentacle monster "flat footed" it still aoos the meatshield on his way up.
Wait, flat footed doesn't prevent attacks of opportunity in Starfinder?

Even if you fail, that enemy is flat-footed against your attacks until the end of your next turn. If you succeed, the enemy is also flat-footed against your allies’ attacks until the end of your next turn.

So with an envoy you're only kinda sorta flat footed.

Quote:
Which does the job really well, but has less resolve than non Shirren Envoys might.

Shirrens are the best diplomats. The penalty doesn't limit their charisma at all, a reroll is clutch.

Quote:
So just because you are okay with resolve tanking doesn't mean I have to be.

You're assigning a really heavy downside to something that's managable.

The character you've laid out just doesn't seem to do much. I can see trying to build differently but non magical healing just doesn't have enough omph to be a viable cornerstone for a build.

Quote:

Besides, that's not really tanking. Being hard to kill is not the same thing as a tank. Tanks take aggro and keep their allies from getting hurt. You're not doing that on the ground in a pool of your own blood.

You will if you look delicious...

Wayfinders

Hiya. Teach here! Speaking for myself on this one.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Shirrens are the best diplomats. The penalty doesn't limit their charisma at all, a reroll is clutch.

I appreciate the Vote of Confidence! A lot of people assume that the Iconic Heroes are indicative of who is best suited to to a particular job, and how it should be performed. That's at least part of the reason why you see Ysoki who automatically think they have to be Mechanics, or Kasatha who automatically think they have to be Solarians. People look at Keskodai and assume that Shirren should just be Mystics. But this is a free thinking society! I love Humans, and I don't have any quarrel with Navasi, but we Shirren can be useful too! Just unfortunately, it seems I'm the only Shirren that ever gets sent on missions at my local lodge... Well, me and Keskodai, but I think something's wrong with him. His personality seems to shift from week to week.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You're assigning a really heavy downside to something that's managable.

I think it's a bit unfair to have someone else decide what is manageable for me, or the agents I work with. I'm an agent of the Starfinder Society, which means every time I go on a mission, the agents I travel with are different. Our abilities don't always compliment each other well. There was one mission I went on, I was one of three Envoys in a four person squad. Fortunately that ended up working out for us. We got lucky. At our Local Lodge I don't think I've seen any Mystics except for Keskodai assigned to missions. That can have a huge impact on whether or not something is "manageable"

Aside from that, I consider myself dying a pretty heavy downside. Sure, maybe it's "manageable" from a certain standpoint, depending on who I'm traveling with and who is capable of rescuing me from from an early visit to Lady Hylax's court. But my desire to live and my aversion to excruciating pain has me finding it both unpleasant and not ideal. I follow Hylax, not Groetus.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
The character you've laid out just doesn't seem to do much. I can see trying to build differently but non magical healing just doesn't have enough omph to be a viable cornerstone for a build.

Hey! That's hurtful! I try really hard! It's also untrue, non-magical healing is not the cornerstone of my Kit. I just want it to be one of the things I can do well. I just need advice on other tricks to help ensure that my allies are well supported. Because if I don't like dying, I'm sure they don't either.

I just don't want to use Get 'Em. Lady Hylax says to seek Peace above all else, and yes, even she admits that violence is sometimes necessary if Diplomacy is an impossibility. But that doesn't mean I have to have such... zeal about it. Aggression isn't my style. I don't begrudge the methodologies of those who travel with me, I just don't want people looking down on me because I chose to hold some convictions about my approaches to violence. We Shirren didn't become free thinkers just to have other people tell us to fight their way.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You will if you look delicious...

I'm not delicious, I swear! I love all animals, but becoming a Renkroda's dinner is not on the agenda. I would hope that I would have a Soldier or even an Operative or Mechanic to protect me, but I don't get to choose the people assigned to missions with me. I just do the best with what I'm given, try to stay positive, and support my team the best I can without sacrificing what makes me 'Teach'.


Teach wrote:
I just need advice on other tricks to help ensure that my allies are well supported. Because if I don't like dying, I'm sure they don't either.

One nice trick for Envoys is wildwise. You can use the throat fungus to use social skills on a wide variety of critters in place of survival.

Besides that I don't see how to get a viable character out of this concept. Maybe the character operations manual will provide something?

You're not shooting
you're not using get em
presumably you won't be using bluff to feint (since it's kinda the same thing)

Using quick quaff is problematic: unless they're a skittermander ready for a drinking contest, on one round you let them draw the potion and on the next round you can let them drink it. You're healing 1d8 every 2 rounds and if you thought spell gems were expensive...

As a standard action, you can grant a single standard action to an ally within 60 feet. The ally can use that action during her next turn to draw or drink a serum or draw or inject a spell ampule

As a starfinder things ARE going to try to eat you. You are going to wind up in combat. It has to be part of your character or you're going to have a really really hard time pulling your weight.

I love odd builds and weird combos (My Operative is a high strength ysoki) but the options aren't full bore optimization or bust. I just don't see what this character does to justify sending them on a field mission. As a rule its your character you get to play it, and if your group can handle it fine, but if you start getting people dropped on hard fights this guy might be the reason why.

Wayfinders

BigNorseWolf wrote:


One nice trick for Envoys is wildwise. You can use the throat fungus to use social skills on a wide variety of critters in place of survival.

Already have it! It's been very useful so far. Convinced a Crest eater he would have better luck foraging elsewhere. Though he was thick headed and eventually came back...

Also convinced a bunch of wierd tunnel dwellers to not eat us. And convinced a squox that I was it's friend. Wildwise has been very useful

BigNorseWolf wrote:
You're not shooting

woah, woah, slow down pardner. I never said I don't shoot. I just said I don't have to be particilarly thrilled about it. I have a gun, and it has a stun setting. If we gotta fight, I prefer to put them down as peacefully as possible and let them sleep it off while we go about our business. And I only extend that courtesy to things that are living and can be reasoned with. Robots, that is, constructs lacking complex AI or sentience, are just things. Not people. The same with mindless undead. They may have been people once, but now the most humane thing to do is put them out of their misery.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Using quick quaff is problematic: unless they're a skittermander ready for a drinking contest, on one round you let them draw the potion and on the next round you can let them drink it. You're healing 1d8 every 2 rounds and if you thought spell gems were expensive...

You aren't thinking broadly enough, nor in context. As I said, unless Keskodai tags along generally field agents have to be their own healer at my lodge. Which means engaging in combat and finding time to drink serums. If I give them some help, they can use a move action to pull out their serum, use my help to drink it, and then they can still attack that round.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
As a starfinder things ARE going to try to eat you. You are going to wind up in combat. It has to be part of your character or you're going to have a really really hard time pulling your weight.

There you go telling a Shirren she has to do things a certain way again.

It's also operating on assumptions that I've already contested. I still shoot things, I still engage in combat if no one immediately needs my help, so this is a moot point.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
I just don't see what this character does to justify sending them on a field mission. As a rule its your character you get to play it, and if your group can handle it fine, but if you start getting people dropped on hard fights this guy might be the reason why.

The agents I've traveled with would disagree. It's not about being the most efficient murder hobo, you know. And typically I volunteer for missions that make best use of my particular skill set. I don't sign up for an all out war with the Azlanti Star Empire if I can help it, for example. As you said, we Shirren make great Diplomats. My companions have appreciated my ability to occasionally talk our way out of fights and into friendships. And I'm very knowledgeable about wildlife and cultural oddities. If you're having problems seeing the usefulness of that, perhaps we should go on a mission together so I can show you.

And just as a final aside, I'm a ladybug. Not a guy. But I understand the confusion, most species can't tell the difference.


Teach wrote:
You aren't thinking broadly enough, nor in context. As I said, unless Keskodai tags along generally field agents have to be their own healer at my lodge. Which means engaging in combat and finding time to drink serums.

Okay, it sounds like something weird is going on there.

Starfinder is specifically designed so that no one has to be the healer. You can get through most non boss fights on your staminia, or without going too far into your staminia. You SHOULD be able to finish a fight without needing a healing serum during the fight. Then afterwards take a rest and get back stamina.

The aforementioned strength operative started with a 12 dex and stayed in level 2 armor till almost level 7. I think she used about 12 healing serums to do that. (half looted half bought in 6 packs). I think all after the fights. There was a healer once (because the scenario gives the low tier the same damage as the high tier...)

Quote:
And just as a final aside, I'm a ladybug. Not a guy. But I understand the confusion, most species can't tell the difference.

have you tried red paint with black dots?

Wayfinders

BigNorseWolf wrote:


Starfinder is specifically designed so that no one has to be the healer. You can get through most non boss fights on your staminia, or without going too far into your staminia. You SHOULD be able to finish a fight without needing a healing serum during the fight. Then afterwards take a rest and get back stamina.

there's a saying at my lodge, though I think it's perhaps universal: "Crit happens."

Sometimes, low skill enemies get lucky and do more damage than you would expect. Sometimes the environment plays against you. Sometimes an agent fumbles something they're normally good at at a crucial moment. Sometimes the mission has a time clock, and you can't afford to take a break. Sometimes the enemies are tactical and focus all their attention on one agent, and sometimes they are particularly cruel and focus their attention on who they see as the most fragile. (Usually me!)

Any one of these can result in an agent taking serious injury sooner than they would care for, and can happen multiple at once. Some of these I've witnessed personally, and some I've been told about by other agents. If your experience has been different, then I'm happy for you. Your mileage may vary. Some people sail through their troubles, and some have to live with their scars.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
have you tried red paint with black dots?

I prefer my natural coloration. It's a really pretty emerald green. And when the light hits it just right, there's rainbows!


Ascalaphus wrote:
I think the Feint route is being undersold a bit.

Agree.

If you play SFS, you don't know the composition of the party beforehand. If you have another Envoy, he will have Get'Em, and it doesn't stack. If he doesn't have Clever Attack (as it's more rare), you can apply both effects.
Clever Attack makes enemies flat footed against attacks, preventing AoOs when range characters are attacking in the enemy reach. Melee characters are not enough in Starfinder to hold the line like they were doing in Pathfinder. You have very often only one melee character around a table. Clever Attack clearly has it's use beside the +2 to hit.
Debilitating Trick can apply off-target. It's true that it's less good than flat-footed, but it's still good.
If you don't have Clever Attack, you can't get to +4 to hit.

I think the Feint route is fine if you really want to maximize bonuses. And the alternatives are not thrilling anyway (despite Get'Em, of course).


The problem with off target is that starfinder NPCs have so much to hit that unless the party is piling on penalties you won't notice the difference.


We both agree that it's worse than flat footed, it's an alternative.
I also forgot to add the case where the Operative is not attacking the enemy you use Clever Attack against (either because he drops his target, or because he's attacking a badly placed enemy).
Edit: And quad attack. If you have an Envoy giving you +4 to hit, quad attack becomes clearly a very good choice. Ok, it's very high level, but it reduces the issue to level 7-12, only a third of the progression.


By that point you can use the feats to feint as a move and then hurry the operative into place or if they're already in place use the feats to feint and add get em for that four point swing.

It might be different when the character operations manual comes out but for now nearly all the feats are kinda.. meh, and i don't mind using them


Clever Attack or Greater Feint. Both have their advantage. Greater Feint is better than Clever Attack, but less reliable. It's a question of playstyle.


SuperBidi wrote:
s enemies flat footed against attacks, preventing AoOs when range characters are attacking in the enemy reach.

As has been pointed out in this thread about four times, this isn't true.

Clever Feint wrote:
As a standard action, you can fake out an enemy within 60 feet, making that enemy open to your attacks. Attempt a Bluff check with the same DC as a check to feint against that enemy (though this isn’t a standard check to feint, so Improved Feint and Greater Feint don’t apply). Even if you fail, that enemy is flat-footed against your attacks (see page 276) until the end of your next turn. If you succeed, the enemy is also flat-footed against your allies’ attacks until the end of your next turn.

A target of Clever Feint is not actually subject to the entire flat-footed the condition, it is flat-footed only against attacks. Meaning you get the AC/to hit effects, but they can still make AOOs.


Clever attack: As a standard action, you can fake out an enemy within 60 feet, making that enemy open to your attacks. Attempt a Bluff check with the same DC as a check to feint against that enemy (though this isn’t a standard check to feint, so Improved Feint and Greater Feint don’t apply)

Where's the reliability improvement?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Xenocrat wrote:
A target of Clever Feint is not actually subject to the entire flat-footed the condition, it is flat-footed only against attacks. Meaning you get the AC/to hit effects, but they can still make AOOs.

Yes, but they are still flat-footed against their attacks, so they can shoot with range weapons without incuring AoOs.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Where's the reliability improvement?

"At 6th level, you can spend 1 Resolve Point to treat a failed Bluff check for clever feint as if it were a success."


SuperBidi wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
A target of Clever Feint is not actually subject to the entire flat-footed the condition, it is flat-footed only against attacks. Meaning you get the AC/to hit effects, but they can still make AOOs.

Yes, but they are still flat-footed against their attacks, so they can shoot with range weapons without incuring AoOs.

That's a...novel...interpretation.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Xenocrat wrote:
That's a...novel...interpretation.

It may not be RAI, but RAW, I don't see an error in this interpretation. The attack is generating the AoO, they are flat footed against it, they can't make their AoO.


SuperBidi wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
That's a...novel...interpretation.
It may not be RAI, but RAW, I don't see an error in this interpretation. The attack is generating the AoO, they are flat footed against it, they can't make their AoO.

This reading is consistent with your past contributions to these forums, but I don't think its one that many people will share.


Xenocrat wrote:


This reading is consistent with your past contributions to these forums, but I don't think its one that many people will share.

Nice definition of RAW :)

Anyway, disagreeing with you is rarely a good thing, so I think we will agree to disagree.


Xenocrat wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
A target of Clever Feint is not actually subject to the entire flat-footed the condition, it is flat-footed only against attacks. Meaning you get the AC/to hit effects, but they can still make AOOs.

Yes, but they are still flat-footed against their attacks, so they can shoot with range weapons without incuring AoOs.

That's a...novel...interpretation.

The ability is limited enough so that I don't see how applying the RAW in this way is unbalanced or inappropriate. They are flat-footed to attacks, a ranged attack from a threatened square is still an attack, to which they are flat-footed.

The opponent would still get an AoO against a move or a spell from within the threatened area.

Second Seekers (Luwazi Elsbo)

I don't see AOOs to people with ranged weapons a whole lot anyway, even in the occasional all ranged party.

If I'm not melee and something is in my face thats what the withdraw action is for

"Are you a man or are you a... dammit "


Yeah, withdrawing can get you out of a lot of sticky situations.

Unless your up against intelligent opponents with reach who get adjacent to you so that they threaten more than one square you would move through.

However, so far as my group has played through Dead Suns that just hasn't come up.

There have been no occasions (that I can remember) where a party member couldn't reasonably avoid an attack of opportunity.

Usually because my character just face tanks everything by standing in front of them.

Wayfinders

Charli has Inspiring Boost, Improved Get 'Em and Don't Quit. My 'Don't Quit' prevented a group TPK by allowing our only melee person to ignore the paralyzed condition imposed by a hold person spell.

I do shoot, but am now looking for weapons with big damage and limited shots because I don't get to shoot all the time. What I do varies with the situation. I don't consider Charli a primarily healing build, but I have medicine as an expertise talent, Bedside Manner, and Medical Expert, all of which let me treat hit point damage in the field.

The important thing is that I do something to help my team every single round in combat.


The ice launches are heavy weapons and target KAC, but dear gods 3d12 at level 8 looks like fun if you can justify a dip in soldier

The plasma bolters are only long arms and target EAC . They do less damage but are in a similar niche.


Dracomicron wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
A target of Clever Feint is not actually subject to the entire flat-footed the condition, it is flat-footed only against attacks. Meaning you get the AC/to hit effects, but they can still make AOOs.

Yes, but they are still flat-footed against their attacks, so they can shoot with range weapons without incuring AoOs.

That's a...novel...interpretation.

The ability is limited enough so that I don't see how applying the RAW in this way is unbalanced or inappropriate. They are flat-footed to attacks, a ranged attack from a threatened square is still an attack, to which they are flat-footed.

The opponent would still get an AoO against a move or a spell from within the threatened area.

I would second that.

It seems like a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the rules.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I just debuted Bobbobs, my skittermander Soldier 1/Envoy 1 (using a particular SFS boon to start at level 2) with a very peculiar support build... With Intelligence 11, he's not great on his Expertise Talent of Computers, but by character level 4 he'll have Expert Advice and start regularly adding 1d6+2 (or more) to Aid Another hacking attempts. Over time he'll add Engineering, Intimidation, Culture, and Diplomacy to his Expertise talent list and essentially be the ultimate IT Consultant.

Oh, and he also has 18 Dex and packs a Static Arc Caster, because groups have a better chance of accepting an Envoy that isn't particularly good at his Expertise talents if he can also dish out a pile of damage.

For Improvisations I'm mostly going the Improved Get 'Em/Quick Dispiriting Taunt route, mostly because I find an Intimidation-based skittermander to be a hilarious idea.

Sovereign Court

BigNorseWolf wrote:

The ice launches are heavy weapons and target KAC, but dear gods 3d12 at level 8 looks like fun if you can justify a dip in soldier

The plasma bolters are only long arms and target EAC . They do less damage but are in a similar niche.

Targeting KAC for more damage is kinda the Starfinder equivalent of Deadly Aim/Power Attack.

If you dip into soldier anyway, then Versatile Specialization lets you use both. Will have to research this for my Solarian...

101 to 150 of 190 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Starfinder / Starfinder General Discussion / A Discussion on Envoys All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.