Help figuring out downtime costs / profits


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

So I have a player in my game who wan5s to open up shop in Magnimar and I have the ultimate campaign Nd have figured some of it out but not all of it so was looking for a bit of help.

The player wants to open a Luxury Storefront with an added Sewing room. They will need a manager since they will be adventuring most of the time. And also a team of crafters to make luxery clothing.

So what would upkeep cost? I see how to find upkeep for workers but not any other costs like rent, taxes or supplies. The bulk of what will be crafted is to be. Courtesans outfits and mw leather for the church of Calistra in town. But it would only take 2 of the 4 staff to work on that and I know those costs and profit from regular crafting rules.


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So, the assumption is that Ultimate Campaign is tracking time in units of downtime days, and resources in capital such as Goods, Influence, and Labor.

Remember that you can substitute 1 point of Goods or Labor for 20 gp, 1 point of Influence for 30 gp, and 1 point of Magic for 100 gp where appropriate.

To construct your Luxury Store, your player must invest 1,030 gp (or 28 Goods, 1 Influence, and 22 Labor). The added sewing room will cost an additional 300 gp (or 8 Goods and 7 Labor). Add all the time costs for the individual rooms to get your total for how long it takes to build this business before it can start to earn a profit.

Next add your team of Craftspeople. These cost 200 gp to recruit for your business (or 3 Goods, 2 Influence, and 4 Labor).

Now build your organization. To do this, add all the Earnings entries for your rooms and teams into one total.

Luxury Store
Furnishings (Storefront): Earnings +5 on the room’s check to generate capital
Office: N/A
Storage: Earnings gp +2
Storefront: Earnings capital +5 (of a type the building already generates)
Vault: N/A
Sewing Room: Earnings gp, Goods, or Influence +10
Craftspeople: Earnings gp, Goods, or Labor +4

Total: gp +26, Goods +26, Influence +22, or Labor +20

Also, a manager will cost a daily wage to watch the business. A good example here would be a Master Smith at 4 gp/day, but we'll call him a Master Tailor instead.

Now let's assume the business simply uses Take 10 for its daily check to generate capital. And remember, the rules for Earning Capital requires you spend half the cost of the capital generated in raw materials to create the finished product.

Thus, the organization generates 36 gold pieces per day, but costs 18 gold pieces per day in raw materials (or land taxes, wages, maintenance fees and what have you), plus an extra 4 gp per day for your manager.

So after spending 1,530 gp on building a business, your player earns...

14 gp per day profit!

In other words, the business will take more than 1,000 days of downtime to pay for itself, let alone earn your player a profit off their investment. So long as you don't give your character more than three years of downtime, you don't need to worry about this project throwing off their WBL.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Thank you very much!


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No problem! It took me awhile to muddle through this hot mess of rules when I included it in one of my games, so I'm glad I could help.

Also note that my math above was slightly off, in that it's a little over 100 days, not 1,000 days, before the business turns a profit. Still, the amount of return on investment is chump change for a PC that earns more loot in a single CR 2 encounter than the business makes in a month.


As I do not yet have this book, I do not know what official terms should be used, so I'll be speaking mostly in-character, if you will.

I was also thinking of investing surplus gold into one or mote business ventures, but not so much as a way of generating income, so much as a way of securing permanent bases of operation for my character. Specifically, I've been thinking of investing in an inn (not a tavern). Having a stake in on or more hostels (in different locations, one would presume) would give the character an assured save haven in which to rest. In my case, I would view the profits as being "gravy" if you will or "icing on the cake" more so than the reason for the enterprise.

Do these rules allow for the continuation of the business enterprise in the absence of the character? That is, if one has a trusted agent to run the operation, could the business venture keep going? (And again, please remember that in my case, my primary reason for this is to have a guaranteed safe haven, not so much a source of money.)

Thanks,
Franklin


Btw, since you do have at least 40 in each thing, you can make 3 influence (cost 45 gp per day) this earns you an equivalent 41 gp per day; after paying the manager.

Idk how he got 1,000 days I calculated the initial cost/profit (1530/14) and get even in 109.29 (let's say 110) days.

Using influence instead (assuming you spend 1 every few days to always have gp around). You get 1530/41 and get even in 37.32 (38) days.

If you spend 14 days away (thx manager), this gets reduced to an effective 45*13+30 = 559 gp per 14 days away (IF I got that rule correct). It would then take 1530/(559/14) = 38.32 (39) days.

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@JDLPF what formula did you use? Also do you know if I calculated the time away profit correctly, I'm still not sure if its per check after 14 days or once every 14 days.


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JDLPF wrote:


Total: gp +26, Goods +26, Influence +22, or Labor +20

Also, a manager will cost a daily wage to watch the business. A good example here would be a Master Smith at 4 gp/day, but we'll call him a Master Tailor instead.

Now let's assume the business simply uses Take 10 for its daily check to generate capital. And remember, the rules for Earning Capital requires you spend half the cost of the capital generated in raw materials to create the finished product.

Thus, the organization generates 36 gold pieces per day, but costs 18 gold pieces per day in raw materials (or land taxes, wages, maintenance fees and what have you), plus an extra 4 gp per day for your manager.

So after spending 1,530 gp on building a business, your player earns...

14 gp per day profit!

The above information is largely incorrect. The part where you price out the rooms and teams is fine. But the way profit is generated is completely incorrect.

The completed organization generates +26 in which +2 must be in gp, up to +20 can be in influence, and up to +14 can be in labor. But the important number is the building generates +26 in profits that are distributed between gp/goods/influence/labor.

Each day you distribute the +26 between the types of income you can generate. For each one of those, you add a d20 roll to determine how much you generate. You can take 10 for income rolls. For GP you earn 1 silver x result per day. For resources you earn 1 resource for every 10 on your check, round down.

For resources earned, you don't automatically get them. Its more of an opportunity to purchase them at half price. Or in other words, its a way to double your money. So for instance you could use goods in place of gold in most shops in town. Or you could use labor instead of gold when you commission an item or service. Or you could spend Influence to bribe an official, or convince a priest to help you.

Since you get to add 10 for the roll, its best to assign either +1 or +10 to generating resources. A result of 11 gives you one, a result of 20 gives you 2, ect.

So in a typical day you could split your +26 into +1 labor, +1 influence, +20 goods, +4 gp to generate: 1 labor (-10 gp), 1 influence (-15 gp), 3 goods (-30gp) and 1.4gp for a grand total of -43.6gp but a net profit of 110gp worth of resources per day. Also don't forget to pay your manager.

If you don't like losing money on this, put it all into generating gold and you get 3.6gp a day...which is less than the pay of your manager. Your building needs another +4 in income to break even. The only way to really get ahead with this system is to earn resources and spend them.

Magic resources are the biggest profit generators and the most helpful since you can use them to buy both spells and magic items. Combined with a player who can craft magic items and you generate a decent profit.

As for taxes...the business pays for that. What you are looking at is the profits generated for the owner. The only cost is 1) for managers and 2) from events (which the GM is suppose to generate weekly one 1 player owned business randomly detemined each week). Most events are bad, but a few are good. Events are really the only way to lose money.


Franklin W. Cain wrote:

As I do not yet have this book, I do not know what official terms should be used, so I'll be speaking mostly in-character, if you will.

I was also thinking of investing surplus gold into one or mote business ventures, but not so much as a way of generating income, so much as a way of securing permanent bases of operation for my character. Specifically, I've been thinking of investing in an inn (not a tavern). Having a stake in on or more hostels (in different locations, one would presume) would give the character an assured save haven in which to rest. In my case, I would view the profits as being "gravy" if you will or "icing on the cake" more so than the reason for the enterprise.

Do these rules allow for the continuation of the business enterprise in the absence of the character? That is, if one has a trusted agent to run the operation, could the business venture keep going? (And again, please remember that in my case, my primary reason for this is to have a guaranteed safe haven, not so much a source of money.)

Thanks,
Franklin

Yes, there is a section about hiring a manager to run the business.


Franklin W. Cain wrote:
Do these rules allow for the continuation of the business enterprise in the absence of the character? That is, if one has a trusted agent to run the operation, could the business venture keep going?

You can find the full Downtime rules online here and here (same text, somewhat different layout).

A manager is a competent employee qualified to run a business while you're gone, even for weeks or months at a time. A manager is authorized to make certain decisions about your property while you're away, such as paying tax collectors, banning cultists from your store, and handling emergency situations.

Having a manager delays capital attrition (Upkeep phase step 3) from 1 every 7 days to 1 every 14 days. As long as the manager's pay is up to date, having a manager look after your business prevents business attrition.

Unlike a team, a manager requires daily wages paid in gp. It's customary to pay a manager in advance when you're going to be absent, or arrange to pay wages through a bank or accountant. If you trust the manager, you can even allow her to take wages out of your business's earnings or from money you've set aside for your building or organization.

It's a good idea to give a manager some means of contacting you while you're away, even just an address in a city near where you're adventuring. You might want to provide a magical means of contacting you (and leave funds set aside to pay for it) in case something requires your urgent attention.

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