Lullaby of Ember the Ancient / Lingering Performance?


Rules Questions


So I have a newly level 7 Bard who has the feat 'Lingering Performance'. I have some rules questions as I'm considering taking the masterpiece Lullaby of Ember the Ancient, and my GM and I are trying to work out the details.

For clarity:

Lullaby of E the A:

Effect: When you activate this soothing performance, one target within close range falls asleep as if affected by deep slumber as long as you maintain the performance. Unlike the spell (which affects weaker creatures first), this masterpiece targets a specific creature of your choice. Although this lullaby does have words, it is not a language-dependent effect.

Use: 1 bardic performance round per round.

Action: 1 round.

Lingering Performance:

The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.

So my questions are as follows:

Is the performance limited by Deep Slumber's 10HD limit? Or is it more like the witch's sleep hex? Does the creature get a save?

Would it be affected by my lingering performance feat?

And if my theory is correct, there's no HD limit to level up out of and no save, so, theoretically, could I expend one round of BP and get three rounds of a sleeping boss character, provided it doesn't have sleep immunity, I don't start another performance, and we don't wake it up?


Last I recall Masterpieces were in a weird place with whether or not they counted as performances and caused all sorts of issues back and forth. I don't think it was ever officially resolved and I think the devs avoided answering this question because it's really complicated.

But yes, it shares the limitation that it can't exceed 10 HD of Deep Slumber. And yes the creature gets a save.

Maybe it would be affected by Lingering Performance, see my opening statement.

So unfortunately no, you have misunderstood basically everything.

Lullaby of Ember the Ancient works like a single target version of Deep Slumber, which works like Slumber (with exceptions), which has a hit dice limit and a save. The Lullaby specifies that you target a single creature, which is the main difference.

It's basically Deep Slumber, with the difference being that you target a single creature (up to 10 HD) instead of affecting up to 10 HD worth of creatures starting with the closest/lowest HS creatures first.


Claxon wrote:

Last I recall Masterpieces were in a weird place with whether or not they counted as performances and caused all sorts of issues back and forth. I don't think it was ever officially resolved and I think the devs avoided answering this question because it's really complicated.

But yes, it shares the limitation that it can't exceed 10 HD of Deep Slumber. And yes the creature gets a save.

Maybe it would be affected by Lingering Performance, see my opening statement.

So unfortunately no, you have misunderstood basically everything.

Lullaby of Ember the Ancient works like a single target version of Deep Slumber, which works like Slumber (with exceptions), which has a hit dice limit and a save. The Lullaby specifies that you target a single creature, which is the main difference.

It's basically Deep Slumber, with the difference being that you target a single creature (up to 10 HD) instead of affecting up to 10 HD worth of creatures starting with the closest/lowest HS creatures first.

*sighs* I was afraid of that. I had consulted the Google first before posting here, and one poster had mentioned that devs had ruled that it was more like the witch's hex with no HD limit, but they didn't post any links to said rulings, so I wasn't sure if that was correct or not.

And I know that there's some masterpieces that specifically state something about Lingering Performance, like Quickening Pulse, but the Lullaby didn't. I wasn't sure if that Feat applied to all masterpieces, or just the ones that specifically said so.

I just might pass on that song, then.


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Because the devs have never ruled on most masterpieces and whether they count as performances most people have agreed they aren't worth it, unfortunately.


Claxon wrote:
Because the devs have never ruled on most masterpieces and whether they count as performances most people have agreed they aren't worth it, unfortunately.

I do use Triple Time, and the other players in my group have definitely appreciated that extra 10 feet of movement. I dunno, that might change as we level up more, but for a 1st level spell slot, it's a small sacrifice. As my bard is a dancer that follows Ashava, I'm considering The Waning Bolero at level 10

(You enact a series of graceful, measured steps that your enemies cannot help but mimic. When you complete the performance, any foe within 60 feet that can see you is slowed (as per the slow spell) for as long as you continue the performance. A Will saving throw negates this effect.

Each round you continue the performance, each slowed creature within 60 feet (whether slowed by this masterpiece or by another effect) must succeed at another Will saving throw or its penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves increases by 1 as the slow dance movements overtake it. This increased penalty lasts as long as you continue the performance. A creature that succeeds at this Will saving throw merely avoids increasing the penalty for that round; success does not remove the effect that slowed it.)

Seems like a good debuffer.


There are many of them that are "worth it" but vs the simple mechanics of to hit and damage (worth more than a feat with each +1) it's hard to argue as to if they are worth "more or as much".

But that's in a straight comparison. Which, frankly, I don't agree with. The point of them is to have a use for a pool that may not get all its rounds used in a day. Rather than use spell slots, use performance slots.

If you are playing a race that picks up rounds per day (gnomes halforc/elf) then you're essentially increasing your "casting" per day. A major benefit.


The problem comes in that if the masterpieces count as bardic performance that you have to stop Inspire Courage to use the Masterpiece, and that is a heavy price in many cases. It's not that some of the Masterpieces aren't good, but that trade off against the flat attack and damage bonus is really a hard one to make. Because if they do count not even Lingering Performance allows your allies to keep the bonus, because starting a new performance ends previous ones.

As an ability to expand to "spell casting" abilities it is an interesting idea. Things that may be more utility not combat situation uses.

The Lullaby one in this case probably isn't very useful in combat, but it could be useful in out of combat situations.

So I guess you could factor that utility into the overall calculation.


I said the same thing in the long thread about bardic performance and masterpieces - no masterpiece even comes close to taking bard from a tier three class to a tier 2 class in terms of either power or versatility whether they are or aren't treated as bardic performances. The only one that even comes close is arrowsongs lament, and thats only if they aren't treated as bardic performances.
That being the case - I'm going to rule with the side that helps level the nearly-vertical class playing field and say that they aren't bardic performances for the purposes of ending other bardic performances. Let all the classes experience even some semblance of the kind of power that wizards and clerics and druids get to have all the time without even having to think about their builds. It makes the game more fun.


I see Lingering Performance applying to the performance you just ended even as you begin a new one. It would, however, end its effects shortly, no matter how many rounds to maintain the new performance.

For the Lullaby of Ember the Ancient, it takes effect in the first round unless the save is made. The sleep of up to a 10 HD target lasts 1 minute per level. There is no way Lingering Performance can affect this masterpiece, since you would need to be spending 69+ rounds of performance to have the performance to have a chance of outlasting the duration of the sleep.

There is no reason to not start new instances of this masterpiece each round since you can target a new creature each round, including those who saved earlier.

/cevah


Arrowsong Lament is interesting, because it effectively lets you add any 4th level or lower Wizard/Sorcerer spell to your list. Though, spend a 6th level spell for it I'm not sure is a great trade off.

It does basically let you use scrolls without using scrolls though. And can give you access to things you wouldn't normally have. So maybe worth it.

Cevah, the problem is that Lingering Performance explicitly says if you start a new performance the effects of a previous end. So if masterpieces count as performances (which I think is the default state since it's unclear) then you automatically lose the effect of your regular performance to use the masterpiece. Which really sucks.

And because of the general rule that starting a new performance immediately ends the effect of a previous performance that means you can't CC multiple creatures with Lullaby.


Missed that line in Lingering Performance. Oh well.

As to CC with Lullaby, it still works since there is no benefit to a second round of the Lullaby, and once they are sleeping, why would they wake? The spell puts them under for 1 minute per level. Sure, one of their companions could try to wake them, but that could happen anyway.

Or do you think the Lullaby's sleep only last while rounds are being used?

/cevah


"When you activate this soothing performance, one target within close range falls asleep as if affected by deep slumber as long as you maintain the performance"

Little to do with the spell. Totally to do with the song.


I can't win. :(

/cevah


Cevah, its masterpiece rules. None of us won, sadly.


Yeah, the problem is that the locked down masterpieces to function basically exactly like regular performance.

I guess the design perspective is: If we let them do both, it would be too good.

While it's not very clear, there is more evidence to say masterpieces basically count as performances, but let you do different things. But that really restricts their use.


Mark's stated (well confirmed it as the truth when I stated it) that basically the flaw of them is that they either work at the same time in which case there is only a few youd take as youd want them to stack, or they don't in which case you wouldnt take very many as you want your songs up.

Either way the system doesnt fulfill its role. And the only thing stopping it? Us really.

We can make a hundred guides and even rate archetypes. But the issue is that Mark's said they don't have the time to "rate" the performances, and therefore can't possibly balance them to make them all viable to work with performances.

Some are simply too cheap. Others have an up front cost. Others do amazing things compared to equal level ones.

The whole system needs an overhaul. If we REALLY wanted to get it as a community we would.

Should be rated based on a few criteria.

Duration.
Cost.
Upkeep.
Spell effect mimicked.
Prerequisite ranks and number of skills viable for those ranks.

If we had judged them all based on these and handed a list in, there may have been a mass overhaul to suit our wants. As is, we waited years for them to do it for us and it's too little too late now.

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