Natural armor bonus of Dragon Disciple in Dragon Form?


Rules Questions


Hey everyone!

I'm having a heated discussion with one of my players right now and sadly I can't find a definite answer to our problem.

Please help me find out what the natural armor bonus for a sorcerer 5/dragon disciple 7 is when he changes in his dragon form.

The base natural armor bonus on that level is 5, +2 from the sorcerer levels and +3 from the DD, right?

For the dragon form added on top, there appear to be two solutions:

1. As per the polymorph rules and the rules for typed bonuses, two natural armor bonuses don't stack, so the DD gets the +4 natural armor bonus from the dragon form, and only that. Meaning that his natural armor bonus is then worse than in normal form.

2. From the first part of the polymorph rules:

Quote:
Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor.

One could argue that it means that the polymorph spells (and in that sense the dragon form ability) give a net bonus to something, like how you get the + on Str in addition of your current ability scores, not instead of. That would mean the DD gets an total natural armor bonus of +9 during dragon form.

If anyone could give me an clear answer to present my player either way, I would be very thankful :)


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Source
So based on rules for natural armor:

Quote:
A natural armor bonus improves armor class resulting from a creature’s naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to armor class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor’s overall bonus to armor class. A natural armor bonus doesn’t apply against touch attacks.

Additionally

Quote:
Bonuses: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

+7 natural armor

Natural armor does not stack unless it explicitly states so or is an enhancement bonus (however enhancement bonuses do not stack with themselves so barkskin and amulet of natural armor would not stack).

Sorcerer is untyped and therefore produces a +2
DD is untyped but specifically states it stacks producing another +3
Dragon form produces untyped of +4 which is greater than the sorcerer bonus and therefore replaces(but does not stack with) that bonus

Therefore when not in dragon form his NA is +5 (sorc + DD)
while using Form of the Dragon it increased to +7 (3 DD + 4 FotD)

Grand Lodge

Untyped bonuses stack when they are from different sources.
Sorc+D.D provides a +5
Dragon Form provides a separate untyped bonus of +4
You get a total of +9 nat AC.


Syries wrote:

Untyped bonuses stack when they are from different sources.

Sorc+D.D provides a +5
Dragon Form provides a separate untyped bonus of +4
You get a total of +9 nat AC.

Source please? I havent been able to find anything that states what you are claiming, though it does not seem incorrect to say that untyped from different sources can stack.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Roleplaying Game Subscriber


Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

In this case, all from different sources, all untyped.


Agodeshalf wrote:

Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

In this case, all from different sources, all untyped.

Ah, so it does. +9 then to NA. Thanks!


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Isn't "natural armor" itself the type of bonus, to AC, as opposed to a dodge bonus to AC or a deflection bonus to AC or an armor bonus to AC?


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Isn't "natural armor" itself the type of bonus, to AC, as opposed to a dodge bonus to AC or a deflection bonus to AC or an armor bonus to AC?

Hm yes, that was actually what I was thinking?


The “natural armor increase (+1)” is not a natural armor bonus to your AC, it’s an untyped bonus to your natural armor bonus. Similar to how barkskin is a typed bonus to your natural armor bonus.


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Lelomenia wrote:
The “natural armor increase (+1)” is not a natural armor bonus to your AC, it’s an untyped bonus to your natural armor bonus. Similar to how barkskin is a typed bonus to your natural armor bonus.

Yes, but that's only for the Dragon Disciple's contribution. The other two are actual natural armor bonuses, and hence overlap rather than stacking. So he has a total of +5 NA (sorcerer natural armor bonus increased by dragon disciple) in normal form and +7 NA (form of the dragon natural armor bonus (beats sorceror bonus) increased by dragon disciple) under form of the dragon.


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I agree with the position that NA is itself a bonus type. The Sorc is offering an NA bonus, the FotD is offering an NA bonus, and the DD is offering a stackable increase to NA bonus. The first two don't stack, the third stacks with either. Hence +5 in humanoid form and +7 in dragon form.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I have a vested interest in the final agreed-upon value being as high as possible, so I'm reluctant to chime in. However...

Dragon Disciple:
Natural Armor Increase (Ex)

As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple. These armor bonuses stack.

Sorcerer:
Dragon Resistances (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain resist 5 against your energy type and a +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level, your energy resistance increases to 10 and natural armor bonus increases to +2. At 15th level, your natural armor bonus increases to +4.

Form of the Dragon:
You become a Medium chromatic or metallic dragon. You gain a +4 size bonus to Strength, a +2 size bonus to Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus, fly 60 feet (poor), darkvision 60 feet, a breath weapon, and resistance to one element.

The bolded is all the information we have to go on.

Dragon Disciple's bonus says it stacks with any existing natural armor, explicitly, and the class was also built to have Form of the Dragon as part of its kit, which leads me to think they should stack.

The sorcerer's bonus is not untyped. It's a "natural armor bonus". It's analogous to the "Armor bonus" from wearing a chain shirt.

The Form of the Dragon is also a straight "natural armor bonus", and as such would not stack with the Sorcerer's.

This is independent of the rules around losing abilities related to your form under the polymorph rules.

If I were making the ruling I would say the character gets a +7 total natural armor bonus when in Form of the Dragon.


i loath to say the word stack in this case, since as has been pointed out, "Natural Armor Bonus increase" is not the same thing as saying your "Natural Armor" the bonus seperates the value here because it's literally a "Bonus" to Natural Armor, more precisely, "Natural Armor Bonus" is a untyped bonus to "natural armor." ie so long as it comes from two different sources anything that says, "Natural Armor Bonus" stacks with any other source that says the exact same thing.

Dragon Form is a polymorph effect true, but the effect specifically says you gain a natural armor bonus, not natural armor. It stacks with any other kind of untyped armor bonus so long as it comes from a different source. When you look up AC types, There is no such thing as Natural Armor Bonus because that specific type of AC doesn't exist, "NAB" is literally something that enhances someones existing Natural Armor.

Another good source and again I know some people might take issue with this is that the prestige class in question appears in Pathfinder Kingmaker as a viable option for dragon bloodline sorcerers, and yes such a character has a natural armor bonus of +9 in that game as well, and remember the game was co created with Paizo alumns who obviously have a good understanding of the intended rules.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Mako Senako, I don't believe you are correct. The word "bonus" is added to a lot of things that don't stack.

Notice the chart for light/medium/heavy armor says "Armor Bonus". The rules for Armor refer to "Armor Bonus" and "Shield Bonus". Surely you don't suggest these stack with any other armor?

Furthermore, I don't think I've ever seen something say "This grants you natural armor". It's always something like "+1 natural armor bonus". If you can provide an example of a place where a rule grants you a value for natural armor without using the word bonus, that would be greatly appreciated.

More Examples of "natural armor bonus":

Lizardfolk: Natural Armor: Lizardfolk have tough scaly skin, granting them a +1 natural armor bonus.

Ironhide: You gain a +1 natural armor bonus due to your unusually tough hide.

Iron Monk: In addition, the monk gains a +1 natural armor bonus.

Kobold: Kobolds naturally scaly skin grants them a +1 natural armor bonus.

None of these would stack, and "Natural Armor Bonus" is a typed bonus, just like "Armor Bonus" is.

The following would stack:

Amulet of Natural Armor: ...toughens the wearer’s body and flesh, giving him an enhancement bonus to his natural armor from +1 to +5

Improved Natural Armor (Monster Feat): The creature’s natural armor bonus increases by +1.


Barkskin toughens a creature’s skin. The effect grants a +2 enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus. This enhancement bonus increases by 1 for every three caster levels above 3rd, to a maximum of +5 at 12th level.

The enhancement bonus provided by barkskin stacks with the target’s natural armor bonus, but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor. A creature without natural armor has an effective natural armor bonus of +0.

That is the exact description of the spell barkskin. Notice how it explicitly states the bonus given from barkskin is a enhancement bonus. It is clear and concise to what kind of bonus it is, and where it applies. If your understanding of it were true, then this wouldn't apply to the example given in the OP's post because it's a "Natural Armor Bonus" this is what me and a few others are expressing, there is a clear difference here between "Natural Armor", and "Natural Armor Bonus" the class abilities in question here specifically say "Natural Armor Bonus." They are not enhancement bonuses to Natural Armor nor are they Natural Armor. Again you are being hung up by the wording, "Natural Armor Bonus" is not the same thing as "Natural Armor." Natural Armor Bonus is not the core value Natural Armor is, it's why when you look up Natural Armor, you don't see a seperate entry for "Natural Armor Bonus."

A amulet of Natural Armor does stack with a creature who already has natural armor Naturally, and has improved it with the feat Improved Natural Armor. Amulet is a Enhancement bonus, the feat is untyped. What your example is trying to conclude is that a dragon who takes the feat doesn't gain any benefit, because you're relating a enhancement bonus to the feat when it was never impled to be one.

Are you honestly telling me you've never seen a Dragon or Troll, or Ogre with a Amulet of Natural Armor on it? For a Dragon its pretty much a given part of his hoard or equipment if he's big enough to establish a lair and have a treasure trove.

When a Sorcerer gains Dragon Resistance and gets the +1 Natural Armor Bonus, he doesn't actually gain "Natural Armor".. look at the last part of Barkskin, if you don't have "Natural Armor" then you effectively have a natural armor bonus of +0. Can you see it? They specifically point out "Bonus" when they could have just said "Natural Armor." but they didn't, thats because its a seperate entity when it comes to what kind of bonus it is to natural armor, the rules for not stacking only apply to "Natural Armor." since this bonus that is only similarly named but is specifically addressed as a bonus its a untyped bonus, and thus the bonus from Dragon Form and Sorcerer levels and blood of dragons stack.

The feat Improved Natural Armor only further proves my point. It's prerequisites require you have "natural armor" and con 13, note that it doesn't mention "bonus" in the prerequisites. A sorcerer 5 wouldn't even qualify for it even if they had the 13 con and the draconic bloodline, because they never actually get a natural armor score until they start taking levels in Dragon Disciple, and gain the "Natural Armor Increase +1" ability. Read the special line in that feat, "Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Each time the creature takes the feat, its natural armor bonus increases by another point." <--- completely contradicts your understanding of the nature of this problem. Its a Increase to ones natural armor bonus that stacks with itself for as many times as you take the feat, but according to you that couldn't happen because its the same bonus of the same name, from the same source.

Again, Natural Armor, and Natural Armor Bonus are two different things, one is a untyped bonus to ones "existing natural armor."


Omagi wrote:

Source

So based on rules for natural armor:
Quote:
A natural armor bonus improves armor class resulting from a creature’s naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to armor class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor’s overall bonus to armor class. A natural armor bonus doesn’t apply against touch attacks.

Additionally

Quote:
Bonuses: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

+7 natural armor

Natural armor does not stack unless it explicitly states so or is an enhancement bonus (however enhancement bonuses do not stack with themselves so barkskin and amulet of natural armor would not stack).

Sorcerer is untyped and therefore produces a +2
DD is untyped but specifically states it stacks producing another +3
Dragon form produces untyped of +4 which is greater than the sorcerer bonus and therefore replaces(but does not stack with) that bonus

Therefore when not in dragon form his NA is +5 (sorc + DD)
while using Form of the Dragon it increased to +7 (3 DD + 4 FotD)

Natural Armor Increase (Ex) wrote:


As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple. These armor bonuses stack.

Emphasis mine.

Armor bonus from Dragon Disciple explicitly stacks.


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Gnoll Race wrote:
Gnoll hides are remarkably tough, granting them a +2 natural armor bonus.

So a gnoll would get an additional stacking +2 to natural armor? As do merfolk?

Kobold, Gathlain, Reptoid, Skinwalker, Nagaji, Tiefling, and Hobgoblin can all also get an additional +1?

They all also don't qualify for improved natural armor because it requires "Natural Armor", and they only have a "Natural Armor Bonus".

/s

Let's be real, the video game has many issues with it and shouldn't be used as a basis for how things work, similar to blindly trusting hero lab.

Really, Natural Armor Bonus doesn't stack, and is the same thing as Natural Armor in game terms. The reason INA stacks, is because it doesn't give a natural armor bonus, instead it increases any you have by 1, similar to Dragon Disciple.


Volkard Abendroth wrote:
Omagi wrote:

Source

So based on rules for natural armor:
Quote:
A natural armor bonus improves armor class resulting from a creature’s naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to armor class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor’s overall bonus to armor class. A natural armor bonus doesn’t apply against touch attacks.

Additionally

Quote:
Bonuses: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

+7 natural armor

Natural armor does not stack unless it explicitly states so or is an enhancement bonus (however enhancement bonuses do not stack with themselves so barkskin and amulet of natural armor would not stack).

Sorcerer is untyped and therefore produces a +2
DD is untyped but specifically states it stacks producing another +3
Dragon form produces untyped of +4 which is greater than the sorcerer bonus and therefore replaces(but does not stack with) that bonus

Therefore when not in dragon form his NA is +5 (sorc + DD)
while using Form of the Dragon it increased to +7 (3 DD + 4 FotD)

Natural Armor Increase (Ex) wrote:


As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor’s physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character’s existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple. These armor bonuses stack.

Emphasis mine.

Armor bonus from Dragon Disciple explicitly stacks.

"You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form." ----Polymorph Subschool description.

That whole paragraph is relevent, but the bold part especially. The Natural Armor, and Natural Armor Bonuses are posessed by the new form in this case a Dragon, so unless the DM is being super unreasonable you'd wouldn't replace the bonuses obtained from your sorcerer and dragon disciple levels just for the Dragon Forms one, you'd stack them, again the Dragon Form ability which is based off of Form of the Dragon 1 says you gain a +4 Natural Armor Bonus. it doesn't say you replace it, it doesn't say changes to. Since you already have a Natural Armor Bonus in your original form, it should stack here with Dragon Form. The only time it wouldn't is if you tried to stack polymorph effects which have their own rules on not stacking.


willuwontu wrote:
Gnoll Race wrote:
Gnoll hides are remarkably tough, granting them a +2 natural armor bonus.

So a gnoll would get an additional stacking +2 to natural armor? As do merfolk?

Kobold, Gathlain, Reptoid, Skinwalker, Nagaji, Tiefling, and Hobgoblin can all also get an additional +1?

They all also don't qualify for improved natural armor because it requires "Natural Armor", and they only have a "Natural Armor Bonus".

/s

Let's be real, the video game has many issues with it and shouldn't be used as a basis for how things work, similar to blindly trusting hero lab.

Really, Natural Armor Bonus doesn't stack, and is the same thing as Natural Armor in game terms. The reason INA stacks, is because it doesn't give a natural armor bonus, instead it increases any you have by 1, similar to Dragon Disciple.

Don't even start, the exact quote is "Natural Armor: Gnoll hides are remarkably tough, granting them a +2 natural armor bonus."

It says it right there, they qualify for the feat because the ability is called "Natural Armor"... lets not play games and act like you didn't see that huge bold ability name before the ability description, you're being super disingenuous. This applies to all those races to because they all specifically state they have the"natural armor" abilty.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Gwendolyn has the natural armor bonus calculation for the humanoid form correct.

However, in dragon form, there are two possible sources for the base natural armor bonus: the +2 bonus from the bloodline ability Dragon Resistances (which remains valid because it is a class ability and not based on the character's physical form) and the +4 bonus from Form of the Dragon I. So we choose to take the +4 bonus since it is the better of the two.

This natural armor bonus is increased by +3 from the increases at Dragon Disciple levels 1, 4, and 7, for a total of +7. Note that a bonus or increase to natural armor is a very different thing from a simple natural armor bonus.


Mako Senako wrote:
This applies to all those races to because they all specifically state they have the"natural armor" abilty.

Oh really , lets look at Nagaji.

Quote:
Armored Scales: Nagaji have a +1 natural armor bonus because of their scaly flesh.

Huh, no "Natural Armor" ability called out.

Reptoid maybe?

Quote:
Scales: When in its natural form, a reptoid has a +1 natural armor bonus.

Struck out again.

Skinwalker?

Quote:
Change Shape (Su) A skinwalker can change shape to a bestial form as a standard action. In bestial form, a skinwalker gains a +2 racial bonus to his choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. While in this form, a skinwalker also takes on an animalistic feature that provides a special effect. Each time a skinwalker assumes bestial form, he can choose to gain two claw attacks that each deal 1d4 points of damage, 60 foot darkvision, or a +1 natural armor bonus. These benefits last until the skinwalker returns to his humanoid form as a swift action. A skinwalker must first return to his humanoid form before changing to bestial form again to change benefits.

Nope.

Kobold?

Quote:
Armor: Kobolds have a +1 natural armor bonus.

So close, but not it.

Tiefling?

Quote:
Scaled Skin The skin of these tieflings provides some energy resistance, but is also as hard as armor. Choose one of the following energy types: cold, electricity, or fire. A tiefling with this trait gains resistance 5 in the chosen energy type and also gains a +1 natural armor bonus to AC. This racial trait replaces fiendish resistance.

Nope, yet again.

Hobgobbos?

Quote:
Scarred A hobgoblin can scar himself with both blade and fire to toughen his hide into a mass of horny scars. Hobgoblins with this racial trait gain a +1 natural armor bonus to Armor Class. However, the repeated exposure to fire permanently damages their eyes. This racial trait replaces the darkvision racial trait.

Nope, Merfolk maybe?

Quote:
Armor: Merfolk have a +2 natural armor bonus.

Darn it.

Gathlain?

Quote:
Natural Armor: Gathlains have a +1 natural armor bonus.

Oh, hey we finally found another one.

I guess 2 races out of 9 being able to take it isn't bad.


You're talking about a bonus of alternate racial traits? Where they speficially give a unique racial name for said traits as evidence? No bro, try again. Tieflings don't have natural armor normally, its a special exception. Same for most of those you're talking about specifically circumstances where its obvious they are just naming it something different for racial flavor. Scarred Skin for example denoting that its not the norm for a Hobgoblin and thus the "alternate racial trait."

Skinwalkers change shape ability specifically says "Racial Bonus" to "Natural Armor" not "Natural Armor Bonus", thanks proving my point.


David knott 242 wrote:

Gwendolyn has the natural armor bonus calculation for the humanoid form correct.

However, in dragon form, there are two possible sources for the base natural armor bonus: the +2 bonus from the bloodline ability Dragon Resistances (which remains valid because it is a class ability and not based on the character's physical form) and the +4 bonus from Form of the Dragon I. So we choose to take the +4 bonus since it is the better of the two.

This natural armor bonus is increased by +3 from the increases at Dragon Disciple levels 1, 4, and 7, for a total of +7. Note that a bonus or increase to natural armor is a very different thing from a simple natural armor bonus.

Thats what I don't understand, why are you choosing between the Dragon Resistance +2 bonus, and the ability Form of the dragons +4, they aren't conflicting at all, they are both two different sources of a untyped bonus which means they stack so how are you guys arriving at 7 instead of 9?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mako Senako wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:

Gwendolyn has the natural armor bonus calculation for the humanoid form correct.

However, in dragon form, there are two possible sources for the base natural armor bonus: the +2 bonus from the bloodline ability Dragon Resistances (which remains valid because it is a class ability and not based on the character's physical form) and the +4 bonus from Form of the Dragon I. So we choose to take the +4 bonus since it is the better of the two.

This natural armor bonus is increased by +3 from the increases at Dragon Disciple levels 1, 4, and 7, for a total of +7. Note that a bonus or increase to natural armor is a very different thing from a simple natural armor bonus.

Thats what I don't understand, why are you choosing between the Dragon Resistance +2 bonus, and the ability Form of the dragons +4, they aren't conflicting at all, they are both two different sources of a untyped bonus which means they stack so how are you guys arriving at 7 instead of 9?

They are not untyped bonuses -- they are both natural armor bonuses to AC, which don't stack with each other. The Dragon Disciple bonus is an increase to the natural armor bonus that explicitly does stack with whatever natural armor bonus the character already has.


Mako Senako wrote:
Skinwalkers change shape ability specifically says "Racial Bonus" to "Natural Armor" not "Natural Armor Bonus", thanks proving my point.

What are you smoking, and where can I get it?

Quote:
Change Shape (Su) A skinwalker can change shape to a bestial form as a standard action. In bestial form, a skinwalker gains a +2 racial bonus to his choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. While in this form, a skinwalker also takes on an animalistic feature that provides a special effect. Each time a skinwalker assumes bestial form, he can choose to gain two claw attacks that each deal 1d4 points of damage, 60 foot darkvision, or a +1 natural armor bonus. These benefits last until the skinwalker returns to his humanoid form as a swift action. A skinwalker must first return to his humanoid form before changing to bestial form again to change benefits.

That clearly says "Natural Armor Bonus", they get a Racial Bonus to an ability score, but not to natural armor.


"Natural Armor Bonus" isn't a type, its a desgination of improving "Natural Armor". there is no such thing as a "natural armor bonus" in the glossary because again it only exist as a term to inform you where the bonus applies to. I just explained why its like that in huge detail.


willuwontu wrote:
Mako Senako wrote:
Skinwalkers change shape ability specifically says "Racial Bonus" to "Natural Armor" not "Natural Armor Bonus", thanks proving my point.

What are you smoking, and where can I get it?

Quote:
Change Shape (Su) A skinwalker can change shape to a bestial form as a standard action. In bestial form, a skinwalker gains a +2 racial bonus to his choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. While in this form, a skinwalker also takes on an animalistic feature that provides a special effect. Each time a skinwalker assumes bestial form, he can choose to gain two claw attacks that each deal 1d4 points of damage, 60 foot darkvision, or a +1 natural armor bonus. These benefits last until the skinwalker returns to his humanoid form as a swift action. A skinwalker must first return to his humanoid form before changing to bestial form again to change benefits.
That clearly says "Natural Armor Bonus", they get a Racial Bonus to an ability score, but not to natural armor.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/standard-races-1-10-r p/skinwalkers-10-rp


Mako Senako wrote:
D20PFSRD Skinwalker

Ah D20PFSRD, they incorrectly ported it over from the book.

To quote the book (bestiary 5, pg.233)

Quote:
Change Shape (Su) A skinwalker can change shape to a bestial form as a standard action. In bestial form, a skinwalker gains a +2 racial bonus to his choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. While in this form, a skinwalker also takes on an animalistic feature that provides a special effect. Each time a skinwalker assumes bestial form, he can choose to gain two claw attacks that each deal 1d4 points of damage, 60 foot darkvision, or a +1 natural armor bonus.

I can't find anything in the errata that changes that, D20PFSRD is wrong. They do not gain a racial bonus to natural armor, instead they gain a +1 natural armor bonus.

Edit: I realized they were printed in inner sea races as well (pg 248), quoting that below.

Quote:
Change Shape: A skinwalker can change shape to and from a bestial form as a standard action. In bestial form, a skinwalker gains a +2 racial bonus to her choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution. While in this form, the skinwalker also takes on an animalistic feature that provides a special effect. Each time a skinwalker assumes bestial form, she can gain either two claw attacks that each deal 1d4 points of damage, darkvision to a range of 60 feet, or a +1 natural armor bonus. These benefits last until the skinwalker returns to her humanoid form as a swift action. A skinwalker must first return to her humanoid form before changing to bestial form again to change benefits. Different skinwalker heritages (see below) allow skinwalker characters to select from different sets of bestial features.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mako Senako wrote:
"Natural Armor Bonus" isn't a type, its a desgination of improving "Natural Armor". there is no such thing as a "natural armor bonus" in the glossary because again it only exist as a term to inform you where the bonus applies to. I just explained why its like that in huge detail.

I read your explanation -- it is wrong in too many ways for me to correct. Which glossary were you looking at that leaves out the natural armor bonus but includes all of the other types? I will keep looking for it when I can get to my books.


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Mako Senako wrote:
"Natural Armor Bonus" isn't a type, its a desgination of improving "Natural Armor". there is no such thing as a "natural armor bonus" in the glossary because again it only exist as a term to inform you where the bonus applies to. I just explained why its like that in huge detail.

Glossary of Basic Pathfinder Terms

Bonus Type:Natural Armor wrote:
A natural armor bonus improves armor class resulting from a creature’s naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to armor class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor’s overall bonus to armor class. A natural armor bonus doesn’t apply against touch attacks.

As it says above, Natural Armor Bonus does not stack with Natural Armor Bonus unless it specifically says it does, or it is an enhancement bonus to Natural Armor (like Barkskin) in which case you are allowed one enhancement bonus to your Natural Armor Bonus.

What part of this isn't clear?


BTW, Armor doesn't have a separate entry. Armor is a bonus to AC, just like Natural Armor.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That's what I'd like an answer to. By Mako's logic, putting on a suit of armor is an untyped bonus and would stack with Mage Armor and Bracers of Armor.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I was looking for where the table of bonus types came from and couldn't find a citation for it. Now that I am home, I can tell you that the natural armor bonus is among the bonus types found in Table 2-7 on page 134 of Ultimate Magic. That table, which is very similar to the one cited by Meirril, can also be found here at the Archives of Nethys.

One thing that this table is unclear about is the fact that an enhancement bonus to X stacks with an X bonus -- one of the few things I think everyone in this thread would agree about.


A natural armor bonus, and an enchancement bonus to your natural armor stack. One of them is your base natural armor bonus just like creatures have natural armor bonuses.

An enhancement bonus to your natural armor is an enhancement bonus that specifically improves your natural armor, such as from barkskin.

As an example a druid that wildshapes into an animal gains a natural armor bonus, and he will still benefit from barkskin which is an enhancement bonus to natural armor.

Any untyped bonuses to natural armor would also stack with the above two cases.

So the question is does this combo fill both sides so they can be combined.

The DD says "Natural Armor Increase (Ex): As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor's physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character's existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple. These armor bonuses stack."

This is an untyped bonus to natural armor. It also specifically says it increases any existing natural armor.

The dragon form spell says it provides (+4 natural armor bonus).

They should stack. One is a natural armor bonus(such as the one an animal would have). The other is an untyped increase to any existing natural armor.


if there is any writers present please come and give a concise response here. cause half of the thread says one thing and the other half says something else, there is no confusion about AC, the confusion seems to stem from when Natural Armor Bonus stacks.

Several of class abiltties improve natural armor. The prestige class in question actually gives you natural armor, finally one special ability that works like a 6th level spell grants a +4 natural armor bonus.

key points in the polymorph subschool point out that a polymorph effect doesn't remove certain key abilities if the new form also has it, "Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form." --- polymorph subschool.

Any clarification would be appreciated.


and this is another thing about this collective understanding that doesn't make sense to me. Even if I went with the natural armor from dragon form replaces the dragon resistance natural armor bonus, the question then becomes, "So if a lizardfolk sorcerer 5 draconic bloodline naturally has a +2 natural armor bonus, the class feature dragon resistance does nothing for him natural armor wise until it exceeds his base natural armor bonus?" …. that seems like rules as written vs rules as intended then, because the whole point of the bloodline is that it makes your tougher than normal members of your kind, why would one of the major parts of it be excluded simply because you already have a minor form of the same ability. Elemental resistance is one thing, but I see a big difference when it comes to natural armor I guess.


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Since "most bonuses of the same type don't stack" is foundational to the game, it shouldn't be hard for people to accept that multiple sources of "having a tough hide" don't stack either.

It's not that Draconic Bloodline makes you tougher than normal members of your race, it's that it makes you more draconic, and if you were already pretty draconic to start with, how is that going to make a difference? It's turning your skin dragon-y, not adding a layer of dragon-y skin over the top of your current skin.

The low level bonus to AC is still useful early on, and useful forever on many other classes. Not all options synergize well. I mean, if you follow your thought to its conclusion, you should also have a (bigger) problem with the claws granted by the Draconic bloodline having no interaction with the Lizardfolk's natural claws.

Sometimes bonuses don't mesh well.


Table 2-7 spells out bonus types. "Natural armor" and "armor" are both on the table as types of bonus that apply to AC. They are bonus types, full stop.

I can understand wanting multiple sources of natural armor bonus to stack, both from a "but I wanna" standpoint and from a "tough hide + tough hide = tougher hide" standpoint, but it generally doesn't work. The exceptions are (a) those abilities that explicitly say they stack and (b) those abilities that say that they increase the characters existing natural armor bonus--i.e., that explicitly modify an existing natural armor bonus rather than attempting to apply a second, separate natural armor bonus. Those situations do work. Otherwise, you get the highest single bonus and that's that.


Meirril wrote:

Glossary of Basic Pathfinder Terms

Bonus Type:Natural Armor wrote:
A natural armor bonus improves armor class resulting from a creature’s naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to armor class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature’s existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor’s overall bonus to armor class. A natural armor bonus doesn’t apply against touch attacks.

I don't know why there's any argument after this post.

Dragon Form's +4 Natural Armor bonus replaces the Draconic Sorcerer's +2 Natural Armor bonus. Dragon Disciple's increase to Natural Armor bonus stacks with which ever one applies at the time.

Your player is only getting a +7 Natural Armor bonus.


blahpers wrote:

Table 2-7 spells out bonus types. "Natural armor" and "armor" are both on the table as types of bonus that apply to AC. They are bonus types, full stop.

I can understand wanting multiple sources of natural armor bonus to stack, both from a "but I wanna" standpoint and from a "tough hide + tough hide = tougher hide" standpoint, but it generally doesn't work. The exceptions are (a) those abilities that explicitly say they stack and (b) those abilities that say that they increase the characters existing natural armor bonus--i.e., that explicitly modify an existing natural armor bonus rather than attempting to apply a second, separate natural armor bonus. Those situations do work. Otherwise, you get the highest single bonus and that's that.

thats not what we were really arguing though, its not so much as wanting multiple sources of natural armor to stack, but rather there is a seemingly clear intention of when a spell or ability is improving natural armor, vs just replacing it. I already know natural armor doesn't stack with itself, but there are exceptions (prestige class in point). The issue was and still is in my opinion with the +4 nat armor from the spell vs the dragon resistance from the bloodline, one is a class feature, which doesn't hinder the polymorph subschool explanation on what stays and what doesn't. Again the bloodline isn't granting you natural armor, its just improving what you already have which was my understanding of the ability, so if a spell grants you a form that has natural armor like the dragon form ability, then the improvements you got from draconic bloodline should then improve the actual natural armor the spell dragon form provides not be replaced by the dragon form ability.


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Dragon Resistances from Sorcerer Bloodline: Draconic wrote:


Dragon Resistances (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain resist 5 against your energy type and a +1 natural armor bonus. At 9th level, your energy resistance increases to 10 and natural armor bonus increases to +2. At 15th level, your natural armor bonus increases to +4.

You gain a natural bonus. This does not improve any bonus that you already have.

Natural Armor Increase from Dragon Disciple wrote:


Natural Armor Increase (Ex): As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor's physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character's existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple. These armor bonuses stack.

Dragon Disciple's Natural Armor Increase applies to *any* natural armor bonus you have, regardless of the source. The term "increase" is also used in the feat Improved Natural Armor.

None of the core races have an inherent source for natural armor bonuses. The Draconic bloodline's natural armor bonus wasn't intended to stack with any other source than Dragon Disciple's Natural Armor Increase. Of course, it works with Improved Natural Armor, Barkskin, and other feats/spells/abilities that clearly state that they *increase* any natural armor bonus.

Form of the Dragon does not state that it grants an *increase* to natural armor bonuses, therefore, the +4 from the spell overrides any natural armor bonus that you have that doesn't state that it *increases* you natural armor bonus.

Form of the Dragon's bonus overrides your Sorcerer's natural armor bonus.


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Mako Senako wrote:
blahpers wrote:

Table 2-7 spells out bonus types. "Natural armor" and "armor" are both on the table as types of bonus that apply to AC. They are bonus types, full stop.

I can understand wanting multiple sources of natural armor bonus to stack, both from a "but I wanna" standpoint and from a "tough hide + tough hide = tougher hide" standpoint, but it generally doesn't work. The exceptions are (a) those abilities that explicitly say they stack and (b) those abilities that say that they increase the characters existing natural armor bonus--i.e., that explicitly modify an existing natural armor bonus rather than attempting to apply a second, separate natural armor bonus. Those situations do work. Otherwise, you get the highest single bonus and that's that.

thats not what we were really arguing though, its not so much as wanting multiple sources of natural armor to stack, but rather there is a seemingly clear intention of when a spell or ability is improving natural armor, vs just replacing it. I already know natural armor doesn't stack with itself, but there are exceptions (prestige class in point). The issue was and still is in my opinion with the +4 nat armor from the spell vs the dragon resistance from the bloodline, one is a class feature, which doesn't hinder the polymorph subschool explanation on what stays and what doesn't. Again the bloodline isn't granting you natural armor, its just improving what you already have which was my understanding of the ability, so if a spell grants you a form that has natural armor like the dragon form ability, then the improvements you got from draconic bloodline should then improve the actual natural armor the spell dragon form provides not be replaced by the dragon form ability.

I think its clear that if you have more than one Natural Armor Bonus they don't stack unless it explicitly says it stacks with other Natural Armor Bonus or it is a Enhancement bonus to Natural Armor, and even then different Enhancement bonuses to Natural Armor won't stack.

If you still have a question, give an example of what confuses you and we'll walk through it.

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