Death from Above + Charging Hurler


Rules Questions


Hi. Is it possible to combine these two feats? An alchemist character wants to use these two feats to throw his bombs while flying, as if he were a B57.

Charging Hurler:
Benefit: You can use the charge rules to make a thrown weapon attack. All the parameters of a charge apply, except that you must only move closer to your opponent, and you must end your movement within 30 feet of that opponent. If you do, you can make a single thrown weapon attack against that opponent, gaining the +2 bonus on the attack roll and taking a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

Death from Above:
You allow gravity to add extra force to your charges.
Benefit: Whenever you charge an opponent from higher ground, or from above while flying, you gain a +5 bonus on attack rolls in place of the bonuses from charging and being on higher ground.

Thank you.


The combination appears to work.

Death From Above clearly states that its +5 bonus to attack roll replaces the +2 bonus to attack rolls from charging and the +1 bonus to attack rolls from higher ground (found in Table: Attack Roll Modifiers in the Combat chapter of the Core Rulebook). Thus, to use Death from Above, the character just needs a charge and higher ground.

Charging Hurler says it uses the charge rules, except that the charge can fall short of the target. Charging by flying to above the target would work for Charging Hurler. Charging by flying past the target would not work, because that would include moving away from the target. Since flying above counts as higher ground, the +2 bonus from Charging Hurler and the +1 bonus from higher ground would be replaced by the +5 bonus from Death from Above.

In addition, if the flying alchemist charges to 20 feet away from his target horizontally while being 10 feet up, that is still within 30 feet of the target. If he throws his bomb at that point, and the target does not move, then next turn he can charge 10 feet toward the target for another Death from Above Charging Hurler throw, though depending on his means of flying that might require a DC 10 Fly skill check for slow flying. And if the target still does not move, he can do it a third time by charging to directly overhead.


Those two feats work together, they do not work for an alchemist bombs per RAW.

It is a standard action (not an attack action) to attack with an alchemist bomb, since it's not an "attack" you can't perform it using a charge. Similarly you can't cleave, vital strike, etc.

Fast bombs let you take a full round action to throw additional bombs as if using a full attack action, it would not let you use charging hurler.


I had overlooked what willuwontu spotted, that bomb throwing is its own special attack standard action rather than the kind of attack that can replace the regular attack in a charge.

The alchemist could throw alchemical items as regular attacks, but a charge does not allow drawing a weapon as part of the movement. Only a regular move allows drawing a weapon or weapon-like object during movement. So the alchemist would have to have an acid flask or alchemist's fire in hand before the flying charge.

Quick Draw allows drawing weapons as a free action, but it specifically says, "Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat." Some GMs, such as me, allow more flexibility with Quick Draw, but most don't.


As thrown splash weapons, bombs target touch AC. What the hell is the Alchemist fighting that he needs an additional +5 bonus to attack rolls? Alchemists have medium BAB, can use Mutagen for a +2 to ranged attack rolls, and have an innate +1 from Throw Anything (and when qualifying for charging hurler, another +1 from PBS). Presuming the character doesn't have a fly speed, we're talking about 7th level, that should be an attack roll bonus of something like +11 to attack rolls (that's with a 14 starting dex and no belt), the average Touch AC for enemies in that CR range is 13, meaning that a good part of the time, the attack roll bonuses will be wasted anyway. And that's presuming gaining no attack roll bonuses from spells, or the Firebug trait.

I would expect the Alchemist to gear up towards Fast Bombs around that time, i.e. selecting Rapid Shot and possibly TWF.

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You can't use bombs as part of anything except the unique standard action to draw the components, create, and throw a bomb that the class feature offers, because bombs don't exist prior to using that action. The Fast Bombs discovery also allows a unique full attack action. You can't use Charging Hurler with bombs because the only time you have a bomb in your hand, i.e. the only time you're able to "make a (...) thrown weapon attack" is when using the special standard action or special full-attack action.
An attack is not an action of its own, it's made as part of an action. Using bombs, however, always is an action. Charge doesn't allow an action at the end of it, but an attack, and thus nothing that is (or uses) any other action works in combination with a charge.

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