Constructed Pugilist and Size Effects

[Oli Ironbar]

This came up with some friends when trying to build the Avengers (so help me! if you have an End Game Spoiler, put it in a spoiler box) and I thought I had my take on the Hulk ready:

Constructed Pugilist:

Weapon:

She treats attacks with this limb as unarmed strikes that gain all the benefits of the brawler’s unarmed strike class feature. She treats the limb as a light weapon and is proficient with it. Removing or reattaching the constructed limb takes 10 minutes.

The constructed pugilist can improve her constructed limb as if it were a normal melee weapon. For the purpose of rebuilding the limb as a masterwork weapon, rebuilding the limb out of a special material, or adding certain magical special abilities to it, the limb counts as a one-handed melee weapon that costs 60 gp and weighs 6 pounds

Impact Weapon:

Enhancement:

This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons that are not light weapons. An impact weapon delivers a potent kinetic jolt when it strikes, dealing damage as if the weapon were one size category larger.

Inevitable Fist:

Irori Deific Boon:

(Su) For a number of rounds per day equal to your Hit Dice, you can infuse your limbs with the power of pure law. Your unarmed strikes deal damage as if you were one size category larger, and gain the axiomatic weapon special ability. Activating or dismissing this ability is a free action, and the rounds don’t need to be consecutive.

Enlarge Person:

Spell:

All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack

My take is that the UAS weapon damage for a lvl 20 Monk (we are not at lvl 20, but magic items move the damage dice up) starts at 2d10 and increase as follows:

2d10 —> 4d8 (impact weapon) —> 6d8 (inevitable fist) —> 8d8 (enlarge person)

This all as a result of the constructed limb acting as a weapon one size larger, the supernatural PC effect as if being one size larger, and last, actually being large size by the spell.

[willuwontu]

Impact and Inevitable Fist do not stack.

FAQ wrote:

Size increases and effective size increases: How does damage work if I have various effects that change my actual size, my effective size, and my damage dice?

As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language). They don’t stack with each other, just take the biggest one. However, you can have one of each and they do work together (for example, enlarge person increasing your actual size to Large and a bashing shield increasing your shield’s effective size by two steps, for a total of 2d6 damage).

Enlarge Person does stack with one of those two though.

[Oli Ironbar]

Interesting. For a thought experiment, Amiri with a large bastard sword with the impact enhancement would have a weapon two size categories above a medium bastard sword.

If we accept:
1d10 —> 2d8 large weapons size —> 3d8 large impact weapon

Then this also applies:
1d10 —> 2d8 large weapons size —> 3d8 large impact weapon —> 4d8 Amiri with Enlarge Person

So could anything adjust her size, her effective size, or her weapons effective size?

[Derklord]

I don't really understand your question. You can use one actual size increase, and one virtual size increase. What wielder size a weapon was made for or what size a creature starts at (for natural attacks or unarmed strikes) is irrelevant, as there is no increase going on - a large bastard sword is not an increased medium bastard sword, but but something created in that size form the beginning.

That bastard sword does 4d8 damage, but it doesn't matter whether it's wielded by Amiri as an oversized weapon, by a troll as a correct sized weapon, or by a storm giant as an undersized weapon (all presuming they picked up the weapon before getting Enlarge Person cast on them).

[Oli Ironbar]

I suppose the wording of Inevitable Fist is the part that stands out:

“Your unarmed strikes deal damage as if you were one size category larger”

In reference to the FAQ,
- a creature’s size cannot be increased by more than one effect at a time
- the effective size of a weapon (the ‘as if’ size) cannot be increased by more than one effect at a time

So the questions seem:
Does the ability increase the actual creature’s size?
Does the ability cause the weapon to deal damage larger than it actually is?

Then it seems that it is the weapon itself that is larger, similar to a large bastard sword, but only for a few rounds per day after reaching high level.

The FAQ does allude to another set of rules (“As per the rules on size changes”), so if these rules would state anything on the contrary, the grounds of this argument could change.

[Slyme]

Anything that scales up the damage die of a weapon is considered a virtual size increase, whether it is worded as a damage die step or a size step is irrelevant.

For the Amiri question...Amiri is a medium creature using a large weapon. Impact is a virtual size increase, and enlarge is a physical size increase, so they stack. Casting enlarge also enlarges your equipment, so Amiri would become large, and her sword would become huge, impact would therefore scale the huge sword up 2 further die steps. You would not however be able to also gain the benefits from Lead Blades, or any other die step increases regardless of how they are worded (damage die, size increase, etc.)

[Derklord]

I'm still a bit confused by what you're asking. "As if" means "as if", where's the ambiguity? By the very definition of the words, "as if" means that it is not actually so.

[Oli Ironbar]

Yeah, now I see it in the entry for Improved Natural Attack and the wording of the FAQ. The title made me think of a size increase, an effective increase to your size, and an effective increase to your weapons size (as separate from an increase to your effective size).

Too bad, I thought they were throwing a bone to the monks who worship the one monk to break through the DPR barrier.

Perhaps I’ll make a large constructed limb.

Thanks y’all.

[Slyme]

I did quite a bit of research about the various ways to increase damage dice when I was theorycrafting a Shield Champion Brawler. Such as learning that Shield Spikes and the Bashing shield enchant do not stack due to both being die step increases, I don't particularly like it...but I understand the reasoning. If you don't limit die step increases, damage gets out of hand really fast...like dozens of dice +bonuses every round on a vital strike, with no diminishing returns or resource limit levels of ridiculous.

Making the weapon itself larger is one way to get around the limit, just remember improperly sized weapons give you a -2 to hit with it, and changes it's weapon size category (light becomes one handed, one handed becomes 2 handed, 2 handed becomes can't be wielded without special archetypes)

[Derklord]

I don't think you can build a constructed limb at a different size than your own. In any case, unarmed strike damage is based on the user's size, and your character's size stays medium even with an oversized arm.

[Oli Ironbar]

But the visual effect is worth it, even without a mechanical change.