Aether kineticist, would this mod be broken?


Advice


So the ability in question is:

Basic Telekinesis
Element(s) aether; Type utility (Sp); Level 1; Burn 0

This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects. Additionally, you can create a container of entwined strands of aether in order to hold liquids or piles of small objects of the same weight. You can dip the container to pick up or drop a liquid as a move action. If you possess the extended range wild talent, you can increase the range of basic telekinesis to medium range and increase the rate of movement to 30 feet per round, and if you possess the extreme range wild talent, You can increase the range of basic telekinesis to long range and increase the rate of movement to 60 feet per round. You can also use your basic telekinesis to duplicate the effects of the open/close cantrip.

I am currently playing an aether based vine leshy as a character in a home game. However, i am the specialized healer archtype as my group has 6 players and no healer, so i dropped my tankadin, to make this guy. Now the above ability specifically mentions an OBJECT, and there is a different ability to essentially shoot yourself into the air as if flying much later.

Dlo you think it would be game breaking to allow this kineticist to use his basic telekinesis to move himself, once he is within the weight category? (he weighs 20 pounds without gear) The amount of distance per action is FAR less, and obviously if i was moving further then the distance of the ability i would have to "maintain of concentrate" on it, if it were going to be allowed that way.

Now by that same token:

Element(s) aether; Type utility (Sp); Level 2; Burn 0
Prerequisite(s) basic telekinesis

When using basic telekinesis, you can move an object that weighs up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess. When using your telekinetic blast, you can throw an object weighing up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess, but this doesn’t increase the damage. If you accept 1 point of burn, the maximum weight increases to 1,000 pounds per kineticist level you possess and the duration increases to 1 minute per kineticist level you possess.

Once again this ability says OBJECT, but could it be used to lift a living creature? A Golem? An inanimate object, undead etc? What is your take, and is the ability to throw people too powerful?


Do I think it's broken to enable a character to achieve flight more easily and quickly than they normally could?

No, not really. If you were Strix you could fly in the first place.

But do I think you should do it? No. You can wait until you would normally get access to the ability to fly, IMO.

The second question about using it to throw enemies is definitely a no. Their is an ability that does that, but it's not this one. Allowing this ability to throw people would definitely be too good, since there is another that lets you do that anyways.


Basic Telekinesis functions like Mage Hand. Mage Hand is specifically Target: One Nonmagical, Unattended Object. Mage Hand goes on to specify that as a Move action, you can move the object 15'.

You are not an object. You are a creature. An Undead creature is also a creature. Constructs (while active) are creatures. While the Telekinetic Haul ability really is a blast, letting you lift up truly hefty objects, it's limits are very clear:

Is it an object?
Is it non-magical?
Is it within your weight limit?
Is it being held or otherwise directly interacted with by a creature?

Only if you answered "yes, yes, yes, and no" can you use the ability.

As Claxxon said, it's not inherently broken to allow the ability to lift just yourself up - at least not on the surface. While a Strix can also Fly out the gate, Basic Telekinesis is a Spell-like Ability - it requires no components, only a mental action. This means that even if the GM fully paralysis me, I can fly my butt to safety with no worries. Other limits can be placed on the Strix, such as the fact that you're a Strix, and can come with heavy rp limiters (the price you pay for level 1 flight).

tl;dr - Most GM's will likely tell you that you can't use the ability to move yourself, and especially not other creatures.


How broken is it to bypass any skill challenge that requires you to climb or jump for the entire party at level four? The Strix thing is a non-argument, it's a monster race that's not assumed to be appropriate for most campaigns.


I don’t think you could easily lift yourself unless you’re playing an unattended object, so no, I don’t think it’s broken.

Counterpoint: take the following example.
DM: two bugbears are sitting under a stack of crates, plotting how to ambush the caravan.
PC: I use aerokinesis to knock the top crate onto the bugbears.

Is that broken? No. Would I be irritated if my players didn’t get to fight the bugbears? Probably.


Read more carefully, Herald. The premise of the OP is using basic telekinesis to lift yourself and other creatures, knowing that isn't RAW or RAI and asking if it would be too strong as a houserule.


Sorry! Missed that.

I would consider it too strong in a home game until, say, level 10.


Alternately, you could have a prerequisite number of ranks in fly or have to accept extra burn.


As a counterpoint to calling this flying, its 15' of 3 dimensional movement as a standard action, this is in no means flight, or the worst flying spell EVER, as there is no fly bonus, rediculously lower movement, a superior form of action required, (standard vs move). I could even see an arguement for it to be a full round.

Also Basic telekinesis functions 'like mage hand' except where it specifies, you CAN lift magical objects, even liquids. While it never mentions creatures, that's why i am asking, it seems to already break most of the rules for mage hand as it is. Amnd as it was pointed, I am aware of RAW and RAI, i was interested in if the allowance of a 15' 3d telekinetic movement would be possible for the player to maintain. While there is a talent for this later on, its is very specified, and dramatically better than what i am suggesting, as in when many classes get a massive upgrade to their low level garbage abilities.


You can get away with moving an object and standing on it. I see no issue with using it to bypass mundane obstacles and that falls within what you can get away with. But grabbing people is changing the rules and it's not intended to allow you to position people in battle.

Also why are you a healer? Kineticists suck as healers, you lower your max hit points to heal.

The best healer in pathfinder is a wand of cure light wounds.


Yes, i undestand kineticists aren't optimum, however, see the old addage about when you kill your enemy first, they cannot kill you? I only made it because we havent been getting lots of healing help from drops, and why chew through the money when after combat can be covered? I understand 'max hp is lowered, but theres still 3 reasons a kineticist works.

1. Not wasting money on consumables like wands or potions

2. Despite lowering max HP, the healing of a well built kineticist, on a single target can quickly surpass that of any divine caster, EVEN if you subtract the hp lost from the heal. At level 3 i currently heal 2d6+10, where as a cure mod would only be 2d8+3 which is a range of kineticist 9-18, vs 5-19 with an overall higher average)

3. While the HP of the target ARE lowered, you now enter "invulnerable" stage. Its hard to kill kineticists without an instant K.O because if they have burn, when they go down, they arent actually bleeding out, and often still have a bucket load of HP to go through to kill them. I would be extending this potential through the whole group. As we are a team of 6 with 2 pets, it should generally take a TPK to actually kill anyone if i bothered to even put a few points of burn onto them.
3a. Who says i need to give them the burn? I can take it myself as long as i have room.

Our game hasn't been dropping a lot of loot, the town cant sell anything over 2k, so we need to be fully self containing atm. However, as the chirugon can heal status stuff i thought it would be cool, but i didn't realize it blocked me from EVER using blast infusions, so i have dropped the archtype.


Evilserran wrote:

Yes, i undestand kineticists aren't optimum, however, see the old addage about when you kill your enemy first, they cannot kill you? I only made it because we havent been getting lots of healing help from drops, and why chew through the money when after combat can be covered? I understand 'max hp is lowered, but theres still 3 reasons a kineticist works.

1. Not wasting money on consumables like wands or potions

2. Despite lowering max HP, the healing of a well built kineticist, on a single target can quickly surpass that of any divine caster, EVEN if you subtract the hp lost from the heal. At level 3 i currently heal 2d6+10, where as a cure mod would only be 2d8+3 which is a range of kineticist 9-18, vs 5-19 with an overall higher average)

3. While the HP of the target ARE lowered, you now enter "invulnerable" stage. Its hard to kill kineticists without an instant K.O because if they have burn, when they go down, they arent actually bleeding out, and often still have a bucket load of HP to go through to kill them. I would be extending this potential through the whole group. As we are a team of 6 with 2 pets, it should generally take a TPK to actually kill anyone if i bothered to even put a few points of burn onto them.
3a. Who says i need to give them the burn? I can take it myself as long as i have room.

Our game hasn't been dropping a lot of loot, the town cant sell anything over 2k, so we need to be fully self containing atm. However, as the chirugon can heal status stuff i thought it would be cool, but i didn't realize it blocked me from EVER using blast infusions, so i have dropped the archtype.

It's not about optimum, you said yourself you changed your character just to be a heal bot.

1. The cost of wands is negligible, especially when the reward of buying them is getting to play the class you want.

2. That's a bad example. You are comparing yourself to classes that only needs to prepare spells whereas you've given up a part of the kineticists very limited options to do this, you should be comparing it to a healer that has also invested permanent class features.

3. We have different opinions of what invulnerable is, sure you don't die but you still become useless when out cold which makes a TPK more likely. Every time you heal you bring your permanent combat effectiveness for the day down, 4 characters are hurt out of your parties 8 (6 + 2 pets) and require 4 heals and your 20 con of combat effective hit points becomes 12 and sure they can take the burn but I wouldn't want a kineticist healing me if it meant my character was easier to defeat for the rest of the day. A character with a wand of cure light wounds will be at full effectiveness.


I have allowed a telekineticist using kinetic haul to lift people (including the kineticist) with basic principle as a hot air balloon. Specifically people stand on a platform with ropes attached, the ropes are tied together in a big knot, and the kineticist levitates the knot which lifts the platform it is attached to.

Or something like that approach, just build a more complicated machine (knowledge engineering is a class skill for you) until you are pushing or pulling something which is "unattended."


Doompatrol wrote:


It's not about optimum, you said yourself you changed your character just to be a heal bot.

1. The cost of wands is negligible, especially when the reward of buying them is getting to play the class you want.

2. That's a bad example. You are comparing yourself to classes that only needs to prepare spells whereas you've given up a part of the...

Incorrect, I never said healbot or I'd be a life Oracle witchdoctor. I said healer.

1. The cost of nothing is negligible when we are only making about 1/2 the recommended wbl. Also, I wanted to play a kineticist since I wasnt going to be able to tank with 2 melee hunters and their animals, not sure you actually read my previous posts...

2. I am comparing it to the most likely used method of spell healing . Sure I could based on channels, but then it's even better.

3. It's not very common anything can tpk an entire group of 6, it my 9 years of experience. Yes someone might be killed in a series of vicious attacks, and that's where the buffer comes in handy. If you were playing and dint want the only decent healing in the party, I e. The healer kineticist to heal you, well youd be welcome to roll a new character. We have nearly lost a fee fights because of a well timed crit one party member then no healing. The healing part of the kineticist is just butter on a ranged dps sandwich.

Addendum: I Have dropped the archtype however, as I realized it Locked me from being able to throw enemies at level 6. I still intend on healing, and nothing is stopping the hunters from blowing what little cash we get on their own wands.


Wouldn't your paladin tank be a better healer in the 1st place? I mean they are a paladin after all.


Not even close. He was a stone lord Paladin, and only had 1 lay on hands. Which severely limits healing capacity. Whether you do or do not like the healing of a kineticist, even a base kineticist can easily out heal a stone lord, no matter what traits or feats you take. It literally doesn't run out, and its secondary. Almost anything that boosts your DPR also boosts your heals.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Advice / Aether kineticist, would this mod be broken? All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.