Do you know if are subject to a spell that has an area rather than a target, but still looks at a target in the area? Like a Paladin'd Detect Evil, or a Detect Magic spell?

[2bz2p]

I am finding people arguing over what constitutes a target in spells and spell-like abilities that are not specifically targeted but in the spell description uses targeted language. Notable Detect Evil and Detect Magic, which are an area of effect, but concentration on a person or object within the area of effect garners more information.

In a nutshell, do you know you have been subject to some kind of magic spell, allowing for a Knowledge Arcana check to identify the spell, from Detect Evil or Detect Magic?

What does "identify a spell that is in place" mean?

[2bz2p]

Someone sent me this from the Pathfinder FAQ - seems to suggest you CERTAINLY know you are subject to such a spell.....

"Whatever the case, these manifestations are obviously magic of some kind, even to the uninitiated; this prevents spellcasters that use spell-like abilities, psychic magic, and the like from running completely amok against non-spellcasters in a non-combat situation"

[Dasrak]

2bz2p wrote:

In a nutshell, do you know you have been subject to some kind of magic spell, allowing for a Knowledge Arcana check to identify the spell, from Detect Evil or Detect Magic?

No, you are not the target of the spell as it does not directly affect you in any way.

2bz2p wrote:

What does "identify a spell that is in place" mean?

It means you can look at an ongoing spell with an obvious effect (like stinking cloud), make a spellcraft check, and identify what the spell is.

2bz2p wrote:

Someone sent me this from the Pathfinder FAQ - seems to suggest you CERTAINLY know you are subject to such a spell...

This only applies at the moment the spell is being cast. If someone walks up to you and casts a spell, then you know they're casting a spell (though if you don't succeed your spellcraft check you wouldn't know what the spell is, or whether you're the target). However, if someone were to cast a spell with an ongoing effect in a private location and then walk up to you wouldn't be any the wiser, you wouldn't be any the wiser that there's a spell in effect.

[Claxon]

No, but spell casting (including SLAs) is super obvious.

It a paladin starts using detect evil you will know they're doing something magical.

Dasrak wrote:

This only applies at the moment the spell is being cast. If someone walks up to you and casts a spell, then you know they're casting a spell (though if you don't succeed your spellcraft check you wouldn't know what the spell is, or whether you're the target). However, if someone were to cast a spell with an ongoing effect in a private location and then walk up to you wouldn't be any the wiser, you wouldn't be any the wiser that there's a spell in effect.

Maybe. Perhaps the whole time the spell is in use the eyes magically glow. I don't know if it's clarified whether or not ongoing spells have obvious effects or not.

But certainly if they start casting in front of you, you will know they've done something magical.

[Dasrak]

Claxon wrote:

Maybe. Perhaps the whole time the spell is in use the eyes magically glow. I don't know if it's clarified whether or not ongoing spells have obvious effects or not.

Would kinda defeat the point of spells like Disguise Self or Invisibility if ongoing spells had continued manifestations for their full durations.

Also there's precedent that glowing eyes will be spelled out explicitly when applicable.

[Balkoth]

Dasrak wrote:

Would kinda defeat the point of spells like Disguise Self or Invisibility if ongoing spells had continued manifestations for their full durations.

Not if manifestations only occurred when an actual action was taken.

I've always viewed it as the way OotS shows.

So if the paladin is concentrating/taking an action, there's clearly something going on.

[gnoams]

All spells have some sort of identifiable manifestations according to the FAQ.

If the spell allows a save and you make it then you know it.

crb wrote:

A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack.

So you definitely know something is up if you see them cast the spell. If it's ongoing concentration that doesn't allow a save, I don't think there's anything specifically calling out if that is obvious or not. I would give a character a sense motive check since you are kinda staring at them for 18 seconds, that's probably noticeable. Otherwise, GM discretion I guess.

[Azothath]

well, the Paladin Detect Evil is a "see it" ability, it doesn't operate like the spell on range or such. Check the CRB.

Identify a spell that is in place means an ongoing spell, like Black Tentacles encountered on the 4th round of effect. It could also be a target of a Charm Person spell cast 10min ago. Det Magic and 3r just gets you the school, not a lot of info.

there are some spells that the targets do not know they were affected, particularly if they failed the save. Review Hypnotism, Memory Lapse, and Aura of the Unremarkable.

Magic and spellcasting is tricky business. There are loopholes and effects to consider. GMs can effect schools like Illusion greatly depending on what they consider "interaction". As I just posted elsewhere, the GM has to figure out how and where "manifestations" of spell casting take place (the visible effects of a spell are a no-brainer but the manifestations for Invisibility can be bit slippery).

For the most part just reading the spell in question clears up most issues. Some spells are problematic in the effect(Blink) but the execution in play for the effect is well defined.

[Kayerloth]

Manifestations are an effect of casting a spell. Not of concentration on an ongoing spell. Nor is anything stated to indicate manifestions occur over a greater period of time than the time spent while casting. Anything like adding that the smell of lilacs lingers in the air (or brimstone as a classic example) for several rounds after casting is purely in the realm of flavor text by an individual DM in their own home campaign.

Paladins or Wizards focused on their spell effects (i.e. concentrating to learn something more while using the spell) are easily seen as focused on something just like any individual is when focused intently on what they are doing.

Note also the 'target' of Detect Evil or Magic or 'Blank' is not really a person or object it is an Aura associated with the creature or object. The creature or object that has or left the aura my be long gone particularly in the case of gaining info about a Lingering Aura from a Strong or Overwhelming source.

[blahpers]

Azothath wrote:

well, the Paladin Detect Evil is a "see it" ability, it doesn't operate like the spell on range or such. Check the CRB.

This didn't ring true, so I did check the CRB. The above quote isn't quite accurate. The paladin ability has a couple of key differences from the spell:

1. It is a spell-like ability, and thus has no components, can be dispelled (or resisted, if the spell resistance field didn't say "no") but not countered, and doesn't function in situations where magic does not function. It cannot be metamagicked, but the pseudometamagic feats for spell-like abilites can be applied instead if the GM permits the paladin to take monster feats.

2. While it is in effect, the paladin can spend a move action to focus on a specific target to gain all three rounds of information at the expense of not detecting evil in the remaining area.

Other than that, it is exactly like casting the spell detect evil. It still has a manifestation when being activated. It still requires a standard action to activate in the first place. It can still be interrupted like any spell or spell-like ability. It still has a range of 60 feet, a cone-shaped emanation, and a duration of concentration up to 10 minutes per (effective) caster level before needing to be activated again.

And like the spell, it doesn't operate based on seeing at all (except inasmuch as the paladin wants to correlate the blasphemous aura he's detecting with the cowled figure he sees lurking near the fruit cart). A blind paladin can use their detect evil ability and "see" auras just as effectively as a sighted paladin.

[Azothath]

blahpers wrote:

Azothath wrote:

well, the Paladin Detect Evil is a "see it" ability, it doesn't operate like the spell on range or such. Check the CRB.

This didn't ring true, so I did check the CRB. The above quote isn't quite accurate. ...

oookay... the range is 60ft thus "it doesn't operate like the spell on range or such." is technically incorrect. I admit I was thinking of the area of effect rather than range. hmmm... I didn't catch that in editing.

AoN(CRB), Paladin ability wrote:

Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.

to save on space, Detect Evil

In my comment, "see it" clearly refers two things, targeting and effect. The changes in the paladin ability description significantly alter the spell. The paladin can only target something he sees(perceives) and that's clearly different than the spell. It Also refers to the effect, the paladin ability will detect the aura of a SINGLE ITEM OR INDIVIDUAL. ummm, it's a move action rather than a standard action.
It's all spelled out in the two descriptions...

IF the paladin has the spell, Detect Evil, he can cast that and it works as the spell.
His ability while faster is quite limited.
A paladin does NOT have the choice of cone or individual when using his ability, so there's no "expense" but I understand that's a comparative and descriptive usage.

the range/area of effect is the real thorn. As the paladin has to see the target it's really a targeted spell rather than a cone emanation. The cone implies that he can detect auras in the area and he can only detect the one. Why that wasn't updated I don't know. There are many things that could have been done better in the game. The AoE really has no impact once you read the paladin ability and alter the spell with the specified ability changes.

In your description, the paladin seems to define an AoE and then define a target in that AoE.
You seem to imply that the paladin could detect an aura of a target that he could not perceive, which is contraindicated by the wording of the paladin ability.
Duration, while possibly interesting, is restricted to the target remaining in the AoE and range.
A new target or another target within range requires identification as a target and expending another move action.

My process is the paladin identifes a target within range then detects evil on that target.

[Azothath]

highlighting the differences in the above post.
I see we are doing it differently. You have the paladin SLA (cast) Detect Magic and then the following sentence in the description is an option.
hmmm.... I'm using that as modifiers to the spell, see above. Interesting. I'll have to change! lol... eeek - - the period(.) has it

After thinking about it some more, the option can only target perceived obvious targets or objects. That puts it back to 3 rounds to locate auras or lingering auras from invisible evil creatures.

anyway, it's why I post and read...

[blahpers]

If it's any consolation, I've literally never seen two tables run a paladin's detect evil the same way. So like anything else, no matter how confident I am in my interpretation of the text, it really only matters is if I'm the one running the game.

[Azothath]

In this instance I was defending what someone told me awhile ago and I accepted. Yeah... egg by association.

It is a hit to action economy on the initial round. Mainly that's when it's used to verify expending a smite on a target.

[gnoams]

I read that as two separate things. One thing is a standard action. The other is a move. They do not rely on each other. There is a period in between. It does not say while detecting evil they can spend a move action.

Both uses are spell like abilities, so both uses would have "identifiable manifestations" when activated, as per that errata I linked earlier.

[PFRPGrognard]

If you see the caster during the act of spellcasting, there are visual and audio effects. I always explain it as casting spells is just like having someone draw a gun on you. You may not know what they're doing with it, but you know it's a gun being point at you. The game breaks in half if people just cast spells without notice. That's why there are classes such as the vigilant built on the premise of hiding the act of spellcasting.

[PokeyCA]

Please see the FAQ for Paladin's Detect Evil. They are two separate abilities.