Phoenix bloodline and fire immunity


Rules Questions


Can fire immune or resistant creatures be healed by the phoenix sorceres bloodline arcana power? Say, you have a deva with a couple of phoenix sorcerer buddies, can they heal the deva with their fire spells since it is immune to fire?


I would say no if she's immune, mostly because of the later part of the Bloodline Arcana's description, "living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal." Since it wouldn't normally deal damage to the deva in the first place, she shouldn't benefit from this alternate use of it. It's not like the fire element is gone, its just that the fire is healing instead of damaging.


Yeah, seems logical. That kills an idea I had for my Way of the Wicked campaign

Spoiler:
(Book 3, Suchandra and the Flame-that-Sings having some support)


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mako Senako wrote:
I would say no if she's immune, mostly because of the later part of the Bloodline Arcana's description, "living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal." Since it wouldn't normally deal damage to the deva in the first place, she shouldn't benefit from this alternate use of it. It's not like the fire element is gone, its just that the fire is healing instead of damaging.

Someone with a vulnerability to fire would normally take 150% of the fire damage the spell would normally deal. When the bloodline arcana is invoked to heal, do they therefore heal 150% as much as others? I'm not positive the answer is No, but Yes seems kind of dubious to me.

It says living creatures regain hp equal to half the damage the spell would normally deal, not half the damage they would normally take. I think you roll the damage the spell would normally dish out, and everyone living gets healed that much regardless of vulnerabilities, resistances, or immunities.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Are we about to do dealt vs. Take again let me get extra machines going.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Universal Monster Rules wrote:

Immunity (Ex or Su)

A creature with immunities takes no damage from listed sources. Immunities can also apply to afflictions, conditions, spells (based on school, level, or save type), and other effects. A creature that is immune does not suffer from these effects, or any secondary effects that are triggered due to an immune effect.

Format: Immune acid, fire, paralysis; Location: Defensive Abilities.

It still has the [Fire] descriptor, so a creature that has fire immunity would be immune to that effect.

I'd say that fire resistance lowers the amount healed as well.


Honestly though it's not [Fire] healing its just healing i would no more penalize the healing for someone having resistance than I would encourage the party to get free Empower spell for healing by being all cold subtype.

Grand Lodge

If fire resistance and immunity applies to the healing received then so does fire vulnerability. If that's the stance you want to take go for it, but does it really make sense for a frost giant to get an extra 50% healing because of fire?

It makes more sense to me that this healing is no longer damage, it is just straight, untyped healing similar to that from life link.


I would allow a fire vulnerable creature being healed by this effect to totally take the additional +50% healing. Also yeah i'd say the fire resistance should apply to the healing, the thing i forgot to mention is when you have the ability to lower such defenses, i'd allow that as well. Of course then the question is, can a red dragon lower his fire immunity?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Talonhawke wrote:
Honestly though it's not [Fire] healing its just healing i would no more penalize the healing for someone having resistance than I would encourage the party to get free Empower spell for healing by being all cold subtype.
Phoenix Arcana wrote:
When casting any spell that deals fire damage, you can instead heal your targets. The spell deals no damage, and living creatures affected by the spell instead regain a number of hit points equal to half the fire damage the spell would normally deal.

The spell still has the [Fire] descriptor, immunity would cause you to be unaffected by it.


It seems to me that people in this thread are confusing MTG rules with Pathfinder rules. In MTG immunity to red makes you immune to all effects of red cards whether they deal damage or not.

But in Pathfinder it states:

Energy Immunity and Vulnerability
A creature with energy immunity never takes damage from that energy type. Vulnerability means the creature takes half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from that energy type, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed or if the save is a success or failure.

Energy Resistance
A creature with resistance to energy has the ability (usually extraordinary) to ignore some damage of a certain type per attack, but it does not have total immunity.
Each resistance ability is defined by what energy type it resists and how many points of damage are resisted. It doesn’t matter whether the damage has a mundane or magical source.
When resistance completely negates the damage from an energy attack, the attack does not disrupt a spell. This resistance does not stack with the resistance that a spell might provide.

So all fire immunity does is says you can't take damage from anything with the fire descriptor. It in no way makes you immune to any effect with the fire descriptor. Remember, the spell's damage is already 0. It can't get lower than that.

Consider Tar Pool: A creature with Immunity to fire would still have to make the reflex saves, they just wouldn't take the damage.

Or consider the Ifrit Fire in the Blood Alternate Racial Trait: It states they gain their healing even if the fire effect wouldn't get through their resistance.

Energy Resist and Energy Immunity only lower damage taken from that energy type. Since no damage is actually being dealt I'd have to say these abilities have no effect.

Also, from a speed of game consideration, taking into effect Fire Vulnerability, Fire Resist, and Fire immunity could really slow the game down. Imagine casting this over a battlefield with characters that have varying resists, immunity, weakness. That's just wasting everyone's time.

Also, as pointed out, it makes no sense for a frost giant to get more healing from this effect than an Ifrit.


Syries wrote:

If fire resistance and immunity applies to the healing received then so does fire vulnerability. If that's the stance you want to take go for it, but does it really make sense for a frost giant to get an extra 50% healing because of fire?

It makes more sense to me that this healing is no longer damage, it is just straight, untyped healing similar to that from life link.

Nothing in the bloodline ability changes the [Fire].

Since the type is not changed, anything that would apply to the type continues to apply. Modifiers to damage, Immunity, resistance, vulnerability. Everything continues to be applied in the normal manner.

It also means the gnome pyromaniac cross-blooded with red dragon gets his bonuses to damage, since it is fire damage, not untyped.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Phoenix bloodline and fire immunity All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.