I Bless the Rains Down in Rahadoum


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber

So I've been doing some research for a homebrew campaign set in Thuvia and I'm curious for some opinions.

It's a fact that the deserts of Rahadoum are encroaching onto civilization there. A lot of people see it as some sort of curse from the gods for abandoning them. Personally I was writing it off as an effect of the Eye of Abendego, basically it's pulling in water from Rahadoum to feed its perpetual storms. But maybe they're BOTH right.

When researching arcane vs divine spells, it's shocking how different they are in terms of conjuring water. Create Water is a divine cantrip which creates a gallon of water every six seconds! Meanwhile, as far as I can tell, an arcane caster has to be able to cast a third level spell to make any sort of water at all with Aqueous Orb. Looking over the bard list, they don't seem to have any water conjuration spells. There is a rare cantrip called Drench, but Pathfinder makes it very clear that this cantrip and many like it are essentially lost to time, you'd have to do a special quest to find one. A hydrokineticist can use the Create Water cantrip, but that's a rare class in general, rarer than a druid who can do the same thing.

Also, Create Water behaves a little differently than other creation subtype conjuration spells, in that it disappears after 24 hours. Why? Most created items are just real now, they're here and they're permanent. Sure, some things like Conjure Carriage disappear, but the spell makes it very clear that the carriage and its horses weren't real to begin with. So is the water created, or is it summoned? And if it's summoned, from where? And where does it go back to? Water is pretty hard to dissipate in real life, it takes a lot of energy to break the molecules apart, that's why its so effective and we use it so much.

Here's what I've come up with. Create Water either summons water from somewhere on the planet, or the environment, or the Plane of Water. Doesn't really matter. (I mean, it might matter with a sort of refrigerator effect, as in leaving your fridge open will eventually make your whole room WARMER instead of colder, but that's debatable.) Instead of going back to where the water was summoned from, it disperses in a wide area, over miles. So, with no divine casters around to conjure water, this natural hydration that Rahadoum was getting has been cut off. Then, the Eye of Abendego opens, accelerating a problem which has been going on for centuries. And now people start to notice this growing drought issue.

So that's as far as I've gotten. I'd love to know what people think, and the possible implications of this, if true. Cheers!

TL;DR Don't forsake the gods if you're thirsty!


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Well, a Decanter of Endless Water only needs an 11th level wizard to make, so the deserts of Rahadoum could be hydrated easily if someone really wanted to. At 300 gallons per minute.

/cevah


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Cevah wrote:

Well, a Decanter of Endless Water only needs an 11th level wizard to make, so the deserts of Rahadoum could be hydrated easily if someone really wanted to. At 300 gallons per minute.

/cevah

Ooh, that's a great point! Control water is a 6th level spell for a wizard or sorcerer, so there probably aren't a lot of Rahadoumi who could make one. Buying one from abroad is another story, but if a divine caster made it, they probably wouldn't want to buy it. Hmmm...


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Well, being a merchant, and noting that you cannot tell if a wizard or a cleric supplied the spell, or even an aquatic bloodline sorcerer. I could hire a cleric to supply the spell while having a wizard actually make it. Then I could sell it at an enhanced price for a *guaranteed* wizard produced decanter, and easily make a good profit.

/cevah


Pathfinder Lost Omens Subscriber
Cevah wrote:

Well, being a merchant, and noting that you cannot tell if a wizard or a cleric supplied the spell, or even an aquatic bloodline sorcerer. I could hire a cleric to supply the spell while having a wizard actually make it. Then I could sell it at an enhanced price for a *guaranteed* wizard produced decanter, and easily make a good profit.

/cevah

Ha! That's business, baby!


So in 2nd edition, when druidic magic becomes "primal" instead of "divine" is Rahadoum going to be fine with druids? After all, an atheist druid could conceive of their "protecting nature" agenda as merely good stewardship rather than anything religious.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
So in 2nd edition, when druidic magic becomes "primal" instead of "divine" is Rahadoum going to be fine with druids? After all, an atheist druid could conceive of their "protecting nature" agenda as merely good stewardship rather than anything religious.

That's a good question. I know James Jacobs drew a very hard line against divine magic in Rahadoum, and in general they don't want there to be a noticeable change in world from 1e to 2e, so that definitely needs to be resolved. I can see them going either way.

I think one of the major issues the Rahadoumi have with divine magic in general is that it can be taken away. A wizard learns their spells, a sorcerer has innate magic, a bard can tap into their mysterious force, etc. But the divine spells seem to be gifted, and that gift can be rescinded. James explained it better than I can. So if that inherent aspect to it doesn't change, then their aversion shouldn't change either.

Acquisitives

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I really like Rahadoum as a setting. A couple of years ago, I was sketching out a campaign, and Rahadoum was the focus for the first half of it.


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Yakman wrote:
I really like Rahadoum as a setting. A couple of years ago, I was sketching out a campaign, and Rahadoum was the focus for the first half of it.

I've been working on a Thuvia campaign setting so Rahadoum is definitely on my mind as well.


One thing to remember about Create Water is that it was deliberately changed to disappear when cantrips were made to be infinitely spammable while maintaining its nature as a Conjuration [creation] spell. I believe the concern that was often bandied about in discussions on the topic back around a decade ago was worry that level 1 PCs would decide to flood out low level dungeons instead of adventure in them.

Another thing to remember is that if you strain the water through the kidneys of a living creature or water a plant with it, that water will stick around.

So that would offer a potentially simpler way that moisture could have been reaching the atmosphere via evaporation as a result of people using Create Water.

On the whole, though, the actual use of Create Water to water people would probably not have been both A. able to alter the environment of Rahadoum and B. not been a factor that would have drastically altered or precluded kicking out all the clerics because having a monopoly on the water supply that allows people to live in an area is kind of a major thing, especially in neighboring Thuvia.

Using Create Water on an agricultural scale, on the other hand... could potentially, but would have required a lot of things that would have led to Rahadoum depopulating itself in a diaspora after the clerics were all kicked out because the clerics were not only the water but also (a major portion of) the food.

I don't think there's a real path forward here on the Create Water front that doesn't involve "don't think about it too closely" on some level, which is kind of exactly back where we started.


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Coidzor wrote:
I don't think there's a real path forward here on the Create Water front that doesn't involve "don't think about it too closely" on some level, which is kind of exactly back where we started.

I think you're right. Looking at the 2E spell chapter, Create Water has been changed from a cantrip to a 1st level spell on the Divine, Primal, AND Arcane spell lists. So it seems there's no real weight to it. Oh well, thought it was a fun little conspiracy theory. But the mystery continues!

Dark Archive

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YlothofMerab wrote:
Here's what I've come up with. Create Water either summons water from somewhere on the planet, or the environment, or the Plane of Water. Doesn't really matter. (I mean, it might matter with a sort of refrigerator effect, as in...

A bit of funky homebrew nonsense would be to look at the map, and how Rahadoum has more green in it than nations in the same latitude (Thuvia, Osirion, Qadira) would be that create water pulls in ambient moisture from the surroundings (and the magic that 'holds it together' unravels in 24 hours, if it's not used up, causing it to dissipate back into the environment).

As a side-effect of Rahadoum kicking out anyone who could cast create water, they now have *more* ambient moisture (and thus, more green on the map) than nations like Thuvia, Osirion and Qadira, who have clerics constantly 'creating' water and drying out the surrounding area, unintentionally creating a long-term problem for short-term gains.

Radiant Oath

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Set wrote:

A bit of funky homebrew nonsense would be to look at the map, and how Rahadoum has more green in it than nations in the same latitude (Thuvia, Osirion, Qadira) would be that create water pulls in ambient moisture from the surroundings (and the magic that 'holds it together' unravels in 24 hours, if it's not used up, causing it to dissipate back into the environment).

As a side-effect of Rahadoum kicking out anyone who could cast create water, they now have *more* ambient moisture (and thus, more green on the map) than nations like Thuvia, Osirion and Qadira, who have clerics constantly 'creating' water and drying out the surrounding area, unintentionally creating a long-term problem for short-term gains.

Do you want Sorcerer-Kings? Because that's how you get Sorcerer-Kings! :P

Dark Archive

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Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Do you want Sorcerer-Kings? Because that's how you get Sorcerer-Kings! :P

Heh. It is an interesting possibility that Rahadoum is sort of a slow road to Nex situation, where arcane magic (and it's practictioners) seem well positioned to be dominating the higher ranks of government. (Even if they are coming from a different direction, and more slowly growing their own archmages, rather than starting out from one forming his own nation.)

It is interesting that there are multiple anti-diety nations, like Rahadoum, and the one in Tian Xa, and Touvette, and even maybe Druma, kinda/sorta, where a non-theistic 'religion' has cropped up and replaced standard religion-with-gods, and yet no nations with a similar view of arcane magic.

A religious theocracy that's anti-arcane would be intriguing, perhaps, particularly as a source of fighting techniques designed for 'witch-hunting' or 'mage-killing.'

I could see splinter faiths of, say, Gorum, or Pharasma, or Gozreh, being anti-arcane (for hugely different reasons...). Maybe even Zon-Kuthon or Iomedae, preaching that any magic not entrusted into humanity's hands by the gods is inherently corrupting and not to be trusted, since it's practitioners haven't 'earned' it through service to the gods.

I guess it intrigues me that there are several nations where 'you can't play Clerics!' (my favorite class!, or Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Adepts, Oracles, Inquisitors, Shamen, Warpriests...), and none where 'you can't play wizards!' or 'you can't play rogues!'

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

O.o

That's...a very detailed response to a Dark Sun joke.


Is Touvette one of the River Kingdoms?

(AFB right now.)

Radiant Oath

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Bellona wrote:

Is Touvette one of the River Kingdoms?

(AFB right now.)

It is indeed.


Set wrote:
Archpaladin Zousha wrote:
Do you want Sorcerer-Kings? Because that's how you get Sorcerer-Kings! :P

Heh. It is an interesting possibility that Rahadoum is sort of a slow road to Nex situation, where arcane magic (and it's practictioners) seem well positioned to be dominating the higher ranks of government. (Even if they are coming from a different direction, and more slowly growing their own archmages, rather than starting out from one forming his own nation.)

It is interesting that there are multiple anti-diety nations, like Rahadoum, and the one in Tian Xa, and Touvette, and even maybe Druma, kinda/sorta, where a non-theistic 'religion' has cropped up and replaced standard religion-with-gods, and yet no nations with a similar view of arcane magic.

A religious theocracy that's anti-arcane would be intriguing, perhaps, particularly as a source of fighting techniques designed for 'witch-hunting' or 'mage-killing.'

I could see splinter faiths of, say, Gorum, or Pharasma, or Gozreh, being anti-arcane (for hugely different reasons...). Maybe even Zon-Kuthon or Iomedae, preaching that any magic not entrusted into humanity's hands by the gods is inherently corrupting and not to be trusted, since it's practitioners haven't 'earned' it through service to the gods.

I guess it intrigues me that there are several nations where 'you can't play Clerics!' (my favorite class!, or Druids, Paladins, Rangers, Adepts, Oracles, Inquisitors, Shamen, Warpriests...), and none where 'you can't play wizards!' or 'you can't play rogues!'

It would be pretty cool to have an anti-arcane theocracy. I did that in a homebrew world once, actually.

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