Are there any LE idiot races? (preferably humanoid?)


Pathfinder RPG General Discussion


By idiot i mean <8 int but still smart enough to qualify as sentient. The vast majority of such races are CE for whatever reason.


Some devils are created to be soldiers and not think too much, like barbazu and gaav. Some infernal beasts also have intelligence in the range between animal and human (cerberi, hell hound, devil steed).

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It is interesting that the traditionally LE humanoid races (hobgoblins, kobolds) have generally been smarter than some of the CE races (orcs, gnolls, ogres, etc.).

A LE race that was intended as dull-witted yet easily managed shock troops, and has since moved on to a more brutish, yet staid and tradition-bound heirarchical, manner of existence, could be an interesting niche, uninterested in challenging the rules or 'thinking outside the box' because, in the long run, they're not much for thinking at all...

In that vein, rowing against preconceptions, a CE race that is unusually intelligent (and yet sees 'rules as for lessers') could be an option as well.


I was actually thinking a kobold equivalent of bugbears (who would still be LE but be big and dumb instead of small and sneaky) would be good. Not sure what they would be called or exactly what they would look like


Need a race of militaristic weresheep!


Nagaji are usually lawful neutral, and have racial penalty to Intelligence, so they are pretty close. And they are also reptilian like kobolds. In a homebrew setting, you can easily make them into a LE dumb race.


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Humans come in Int 7 varieties and are often lawful evil.

A lawful evil society where everybody is kinda vapid and simple seems hard to pull off, since you probably need someone sharp to have their hand on the tiller lest things fall apart and descend into chaos.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
A lawful evil society where everybody is kinda vapid and simple seems hard to pull off, since you probably need someone sharp to have their hand on the tiller lest things fall apart and descend into chaos.

Yea, but the lawful evil race would not need to be led by one of its own. I think Pathfinder orcs tend to put half-orcs in leadership roles due to their higher intelligence, for example? If hobgoblins were dumber, maybe bugbears would be the ones bullying them around?

To work, they'd essentially need rapid reproductive cycles. Loyal evil minions that can die in droves without getting wiped off.


I think Wyvaran are PRACTICALLY presented as Lawful and Evil inclined, even if not as explicitly as Hobgoblins.
They also are related to Kobolds, so the idea of them existing in shared community with them (and led by Kobold) isn't a stretch.

As mentioned, Nagaji are other option, and while Nagajor is supposedly Neutral over-all, I feel Evil predominates given Naga rulers.
(honestly, not sure how they justify Neutral over-all while Nagaji are LN over-all and no major Chaotic balance is obvious)
So it isn't a stretch to say a given sub-group of Nagaji are predominantly LE with their Int penalty,
and saying that is typical of ALL Nagaji doesn't really seem too far off, I think they didn't do that mainly
because it was presented as PC race and they wanted to keep idea of all range of alignments existing in Nagajor,
but that isn't actually precluded by saying the average or most common denominator is LE, IMHO. (or NE for country possibly)

The lack of lawful/evil/stupid is kind of interesting/weird hole in the scheme of things,
and I don't even think there is symmetrical problem with lack of intelligent/chaotic/evil options either,
those certainly exist alongside the chaotic/evil/stupid stuff as well.

EDIT: But come on... The thread title!!! LOL Is "dumb-ass" the preferred term? :-)

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Wyvarans are LN inclined though <_<


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don't forget that low int mean they don't know a lot of facts.
if you want them to be dumb and follow orders you actually might need low WIS. (for lower sense motive etc)

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zza ni wrote:

don't forget that low int mean they don't know a lot of facts.

if you want them to be dumb and follow orders you actually might need low WIS. (for lower sense motive etc)

You might as well argue they need low charisma too.

Low charisma isn't just effectiveness of diplo skills, it also lowers your dc to resist diplomacy and intimidate :p (since charisma modifier gets added to levels). So low charisma creatures aren't only bad at convincing others, they are also easier to sway.


Typical evil mooks could be argued to have negative modifiers for all stats. ;)


In D&D 1st Edition, for some reason Orcs were officially labeled as being Lawful Evil, and weren't very smart. Not sure when this changed to the current Chaotic Evil.


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Manticores seem to fit this description, they are LE and have an int of 7.

edit: for some reason I overlooked the humanoid portion in the OP. What you're looking for are Mites. They are basically LE goblins.

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UnArcaneElection wrote:

In D&D 1st Edition, for some reason Orcs were officially labeled as being Lawful Evil, and weren't very smart. Not sure when this changed to the current Chaotic Evil.

I think its probably because of Tolkien influence. I mean, before 1e halflings were straight up hobbits


Yqatuba wrote:
I was actually thinking a kobold equivalent of bugbears (who would still be LE but be big and dumb instead of small and sneaky) would be good. Not sure what they would be called or exactly what they would look like

Kroxigors?


Thebazilly wrote:
Kroxigors?

Kroxigor's are more like kobold version of Ogres. General Saurus would probably make for a better example.


Problem with Saurus is that they're generally described as pretty sharp cookies presuming the topic at hand is "best ways to murder someone else"

The other stuff is quite literally not their job (and unlike skinks/kroxis they never get forcibly conscripted outside their intended role)


Skum are INT 10. They're not idiots, but they're not smart either.


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LordKailas wrote:

Manticores seem to fit this description, they are LE and have an int of 7.

edit: for some reason I overlooked the humanoid portion in the OP. What you're looking for are Mites. They are basically LE goblins.

Forgot about the mites, but yes, I rather like them. They are completely pathetic yet completely malicious and hate everyone who's better off than them (which in their minds is almost everyone). They're kinda like the incels of Pathfinder.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
UnArcaneElection wrote:

In D&D 1st Edition, for some reason Orcs were officially labeled as being Lawful Evil, and weren't very smart. Not sure when this changed to the current Chaotic Evil.

It was a 3.x switch, likely due to influence from things like Warhammer.

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Chakat Firepaw wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

In D&D 1st Edition, for some reason Orcs were officially labeled as being Lawful Evil, and weren't very smart. Not sure when this changed to the current Chaotic Evil.

It was a 3.x switch, likely due to influence from things like Warhammer.

Or to further move them into a different niche than that of hobgoblins.

(Putting them closer in role to gnolls, so more of a lateral transfer, IMO.)


Set wrote:

Or to further move them into a different niche than that of hobgoblins.

(Putting them closer in role to gnolls, so more of a lateral transfer, IMO.)

Sort of off topic but this really seems to be a problem D&D struggles with. Lots of races get thrown into a pot to maximize options and they end up kind of blurring between each other. Orcs and gnolls are kind of interchangeable.

Goblins had a similar problem where they were sneakier and smaller but then we get kobolds that do the same thing and so goblins end up being budget orcs instead (and waffle back and forth between those two points depending on the material) Then in Pathfinder we got the abomination that is the PF goblin to try to make them stand out more and that's just a shame.

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Squiggit wrote:
Set wrote:

Or to further move them into a different niche than that of hobgoblins.

(Putting them closer in role to gnolls, so more of a lateral transfer, IMO.)

Then in Pathfinder we got the abomination that is the PF goblin to try to make them stand out more and that's just a shame.

Ye do realize that yer word choice there is kinda asking for arguments that starts with "But I like Pathfinder goblins much better"? :p I mean that is harsh


Squiggit wrote:
Then in Pathfinder we got the abomination that is the PF goblin to try to make them stand out more and that's just a shame.

You take that back, Mr. Hey Who Turned Out the Lights.


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Squiggit wrote:
Set wrote:

Or to further move them into a different niche than that of hobgoblins.

(Putting them closer in role to gnolls, so more of a lateral transfer, IMO.)

Sort of off topic but this really seems to be a problem D&D struggles with. Lots of races get thrown into a pot to maximize options and they end up kind of blurring between each other. Orcs and gnolls are kind of interchangeable.

{. . .}

A similar problem has occurred with PC races. Having more isn't inherently bad, but you don't want it to go to more than you can flesh out well. Pathfinder Campaign Setting and 1st Edition (not including any implied additions from 2nd Edition or Starfinder) has done a good job with the Core Races + Tieflings, Aasimar, and Drow, and is frustratingly close to but not at the point of doing a good job for Changelings/Witchbloods, Dhampirs, Kobolds, Orcs, and Ratfolk, and everything else feels just sort of thrown in there.


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Umm... either change the alignment or Int scores of the creatures you want? I mean, no one says EVERY hobgoblin on the planet has to have an Int of 10, nor does every ogre have to be CE. These are the average, not the only.

Is every PC Int 10+? How many barbarians dump stat their Int? If there can be variety here there can be variety everywhere.

Personally, if you're going to re-imagine a monster as LE with low Int, I vote for Tatzlwyrms. They're CR2, Int 5, and normally N in alignment but I've used them as CE. They're JUST intelligent enough to understand speech and have a decent Wis. They're also described in the fluff as having the ability to build complex lairs and rudimentary traps.

Tatzlwyrms have a poisonous breath they can exhale up to 5' away. This poison is only a DC 12 Fort save but could still be a threat to low level PCs. However, between traps that deliver the Entangled condition or inflict penalties to movement, this poisonous breath, and their ability to pounce, grapple and rake, Tatzlwyrms are tough for their CR.

So they're descended from dragons and are in the Dragon type. What if your Tatzlwyrms descended from, say...Green Dragons? Their progenitor is LE and heavily on the cunning side, with a penchant for forests. What if Big Daddy Green mated with some ancient forest dweller, created a race of mutant, runt offspring, then used some eldritch powers known only to dragons to help these new Tatzlwyrms breed true?

Then, as the generations wore on these new creatures took on some of the personality traits of their creator. They became a tad haughty became aware of their own power, rising above some of their more animalistic influences. Never gifted with vast intellect their culture still remains fairly low-tech, governed more by superstition than fact, but the Greenblood Tatzlwyrms have nevertheless become organized through ritual and tradition.

What's worse... they're worshipped. Yes, the ancient green dragon also produced a line of kobolds. These creatures, similarly tribal, hewed to the outskirts of the woods for centuries until their "god" was destroyed by the evil mortals living in their castle on the hill. But the kobolds still commune with the "servitor race" of their god, the green dragon's divine soldiers, the Tatzlwyrms.

Shrines to the 'wyrms can be found in several places in the woods. Kobolds hold ritualistic worship and sacrifices in these sites and their shamans actually receive divine power from said worship. For this reason some of the more powerful shamans are able to coerce the Tatzlwyrms into joining forces, using these soldiers as "muscle" in their peoples' raids.


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Per the bestiary:
Int 4: Adherer, aberration
Int 4: Adherer, monstrous humanoid
Int 4: Mythic Nessian Warhound, outsider (evil, extraplanar, fire, lawful, mythic)
Int 4: Nessian Warhound, outsider (evil, extraplanar, fire, lawful)
Int 5: Poltergeist, undead (incorporeal)
Int 5: Sha, magical beast
Int 6: Bearded Devil, outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Int 6: Cerberi, outsider (evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Int 6: Hell Hound, outsider (evil, extraplanar, fire, lawful)
Int 6: Hellstoker Devil, outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Int 6: Hellwasp Swarm, vermin (extraplanar, swarm)
Int 6: Malbolgian Cerberi, outsider (evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Int 6: Mummy, undead
Int 6: Mythic Hell Hound, outsider (evil, extraplanar, fire, lawful, mythic)
Int 6: Mythic Mummy, undead (mythic)
Int 6: Screaming Devilkin, magical beast
Int 7: Hellwidow, magical beast (extraplanar)
Int 7: Lesser Host Devil, outsider (devil, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Int 7: Manticore, magical beast
Int 7: Mythic Manticore, magical beast (mythic)
Int 7: Revenant, undead

/cevah

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