I'm honestly not sure.
Here are the relevant rules:
No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all Saving Throws.
I know you can't stack 2 untyped bonuses from the same stat in this way, but I'm unsure if the undead trait that replaces CON with CHA counts as a "bonus". It probably does, so my gut says that they won't stack ... but I'm not 100% on that.
Having said that ...
Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
So you'll be immune to most things anyway (and with that in mind it's probably more balanced if you don't get double charisma on fort saves).
The relevant FAQ is
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
So, when you plug your Con/Cha into your Fort save, is it a bonus, or just part of the definition of Fort saves? It's the former:
Constitution represents your character's health and stamina. A Constitution bonus increases a character's hit points, so the ability is important for all classes. Some creatures, such as undead and constructs, do not have a Constitution score. Their modifier is +0 for any Constitution-based checks. A character with a Constitution score of 0 is dead.
You apply your character's Constitution modifier to:
- Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he advances in level).
- Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison, disease, and similar threats.
If a character's Constitution score changes enough to alter his or her Constitution modifier, the character's hit points also increase or decrease accordingly.
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren't die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you'll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
So: when you add your Cha to your base Fort save you are adding a bonus equal to your Cha bonus (if you have a positive modifier);that does not stack with another bonus equal to your Cha bonus, such as divine grace.
Though I agree with MrCharisma about it not mattering much for an undead anyway.
you cannot be an undead Paladin. All Undead by their Nature are CE and Paladins are Lawful Good. You add Your Cha Bonus to all saves via the Paladin Divine Grace Class ability.
Nope, and nope.
In reverse order: Fuzzy Wuzzy quoted the relevant faq and then went into a very thorough breakdown showing that you do not add cha bonus twice in this case.
And plenty of undead are not CE, while it is surely not typical for undead to be LG there is nothing in the paladin code that says a pulse is required.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
ALL
... ghosts can be any alignment.
UNDEAD
Mindless undead created by your magic are of neutral alignment, while thinking undead possess your alignment.
ARE
... this [undead] shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer.
CHAOTIC
Alignment: Any evil.
EVIL
They dont stack and that sucks.
It's highly unusual that any Undead would be a paladin.
Even if you we're a paladin, in general the process of being turned into undead makes you evil.
In any event, no you don't get to double dip charisma.
Since this is PF1, not PF2, it is a mistake to assume Golarion lore by default. Golarion intelligent undead are evil with very few exceptions. Pathfinder intelligent undead are much more free to be arbitrary alignments.
In any event, the validity of an undead paladin is purely a matter for the OP and their GM, and it's irrelevant to the actual question of the thread.
You can't add your cha bonus twice to the same thing. Which makes undead antipaladins underwhelming, because, as you say, they aren't getting it twice for the same reason and thus their saves will be lower than a non-undead version. But that's the way the rules intend it.
Yeah the confusion I was having was whether your normal stat modifier was considered a "bonus" ... but then today I realised that of course they are, they talk about "bonuses" and "penalties" all the time in the rule-books, I just forgot =P
Looks like that's a pretty definitive answer for you Cobradane42. Don't be too worried, you'll still have a great fort-save (strong progression + your CHA modifier), and you're literally immune to most fort-saves anyway (you're double immune to diseases now, you can only catch a disease if it affects undead AND paladins ... AND you fail your fort-save).
I'd houserule it the same way. (Anti)paladins are supposed to get great saves. Killing off part of a core class bonus just because the creature's type uses a different stat than normal for fort? Unfair. Especially with how iconic an undead antipaladin is. The champion of evil wouldn't be much of a champion if he's dusted at the first disintegrate.
I'd houserule it the same way. (Anti)paladins are supposed to get great saves. Killing off part of a core class bonus just because the creature's type uses a different stat than normal for fort? Unfair. Especially with how iconic an undead antipaladin is. The champion of evil wouldn't be much of a champion if he's dusted at the first disintegrate.
As an undead Antipaladin you're one of the hardest characters to kill.
You get CHA to hp/saves/spells/class abilities. Your CHA to saves also stacks with DEX for Reflex saves and WIS for Will saves. Your Fort and Will saves are both the good save progression.
This means you'll still probably have a higher Fort save than anyone except a Paladin.
BUT
You're also immune to most effects that ask for a Fort save, so in effect you're swapping "some" of your Fort save for a bunch of immunities. It's not unfair, it's probably "slightly balancing" your otherwise impossible-to-kill Antipaladin.
Disintegrate is a 6th level spell, so let's say your Antipaladin is 11th level when they get hit by it. You should have at least ~20 CHA and a +3 cloak of resistance giving you a +15 fort save (and since you probably have a higher CHA your Fort save is probably only ~1 lower than a Paladin, but your HP will be higher). You still have a better chance of surviving Disintegrate than anyone else.
- No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon’s DC).
- Darkvision 60 feet.
- Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, morale effects, patterns, and phantasms).
- Immunity to death effects, disease, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
- Not subject to nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Constitution, Dexterity, and Strength), as well as to exhaustion and fatigue effects.
- Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
- Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
- Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points.
- Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
- Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
- Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
- Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.
I admit I skimmed that, and I'll admit that it applies to the second point. It does not negate my first point that it is not a 'bonus equal to your charisma' but a straight transposition.
The transposition from CON to CHA is still considered a "bonus", so that's exactly what the FAQ is saying.
This FAQ refers to "UNTYPED" bonus stacking. A resistance bonus, a sacred bonus and an untyped bonus can all stack - even if they're all equal to your CHA bonus. What you can't do is stack 2 untyped bonuses that are equal to your CHA score. You CAN stack 2 untyped bonuses if they come from different ability scores (eg. CON and CHA), which is why Paladins normally get such a huge boost to saves.
EDIT: Again this hinges on the definition of the bonus you get from your ability scores normally. As far as I know they're untyped bonuses, but if you can find something that says otherwise then you should be able to stack these bonuses. I just don't know of anything that says that, and apparently the others in this thread don't either.
I admit I skimmed that, and I'll admit that it applies to the second point. It does not negate my first point that it is not a 'bonus equal to your charisma' but a straight transposition.The transposition from CON to CHA is still considered a "bonus", so that's exactly what the FAQ is saying.
This FAQ refers to "UNTYPED" bonus stacking. A resistance bonus, a sacred bonus and an untyped bonus can all stack - even if they're all equal to your CHA bonus. What you can't do is stack 2 untyped bonuses that are equal to your CHA score. You CAN stack 2 untyped bonuses if they come from different ability scores (eg. CON and CHA), which is why Paladins normally get such a huge boost to saves.
EDIT: Again this hinges on the definition of the bonus you get from your ability scores normally. As far as I know they're untyped bonuses, but if you can find something that says otherwise then you should be able to stack these bonuses. I just don't know of anything that says that, and apparently the others in this thread don't either.
All undead come with racial HD though. And though I don't think there's LA in PF, the principle applies.
Is a juju zombie antipaladin better than a human antipaladin of the same level? Probably. But the same could be said for a fighter, or a cleric, etc.
Undead do get some vulnerabilities and nuisances that living creatures don't have though.
As for the FAQ, it says you can't stack twice the same bonus: in the case, Cha.
All undead come with racial HD though. And though I don't think there's in PF, the principle applies.
"LA"?
Not all undead have racial hd.