Telekinetic Haul vs Self Telekinesis?


Rules Questions


In truth I have a ton of question regarding Kineticist. However I'll start with this question, and contain further questions to this thread. If I'm allowed to use kineticist in the campaign at all, I liked the Overwhelming Soul archetype, So I want to use that.

Anyway if I wanted to telekintically fly about, it seems like Telekinetic Haul would allow me to do just that, am I wrong, is Self Tk better some how?


You have to jump through hoops to use TK Haul on yourself most of the time, and even then some DMs won’t be cool with it.

The problem is that TK Haul can only target unattended objects. So, you’d need to target an unattended object and then ride on it. But there aren’t rules for riding objects like that so you’ll have to work out how that works with your DM.

There is a second option to make a container instead of targeting an object, but you’ll have to check with your DM if it is ok to ride in a container, because that was intended for small objects and fluids.

Liberty's Edge

How exactly are you going to move yourself with TH?

Quote:
When using basic telekinesis, you can move an object that weighs up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess. When using your telekinetic blast, you can throw an object weighing up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess, but this doesn’t increase the damage. If you accept 1 point of burn, the maximum weight increases to 1,000 pounds per kineticist level you possess and the duration increases to 1 minute per kineticist level you possess.

Last I checked "Object" /=/ "Creature." Besides that, you'd be dealing your Kinetic Blast damage to yourself EVERY time you use a Standard Action for this purpose.

Your best bet here is Self TK for sure.


TK Haul also requires concentration, which means you will have to use up your standard action every round to maintain it, unless you spend burn. Even when you have a DM that allows TK Haul movement, it’s not very useful for combat.


Themetricsystem wrote:
." Besides that, you'd be dealing your Kinetic Blast damage to yourself EVERY time you use a Standard Action for this purpose.

I’ve already mentioned ways around your other points, but this bit just seems to be confusion. TK Haul modifies either the basic telekinesis or the blast. It doesn’t combine them and make the basic telekinesis modification to do blast damage.

basic telekinesis wrote:
This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects. Additionally, you can create a container of entwined strands of aether in order to hold liquids or piles of small objects of the same weight. You can dip the container to pick up or drop a liquid as a move action. If you possess the extended range wild talent, you can increase the range of basic telekinesis to medium range and increase the rate of movement to 30 feet per round, and if you possess the extreme range wild talent, you can increase the range of basic telekinesis to long range and increase the rate of movement to 60 feet per round. You can also use your basic telekinesis to duplicate the effects of the open/close cantrip.


yeah I was thinking TK Haul could lift me by my feet or any objects that are securely fastened to me... hmm, so if you slit a boulder in half and sat on the flat part and moved it with TK Haul is the boulder unattened?


After the TK Haul is used, it should no longer matter if the boulder becomes attended or not. Being unattended only matters during “casting”.

It should also be mentioned that basic TK simply says it works on objects, without mentioning the objects needing to be unattended. So there is a small chance that it works on attended objects too, unlike mage hand. It’s worth asking your DM about, because it’s open to interpretation, but I suspect many will think it remains limited to unattended.

Quote:
This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects.


So help me understand the Overwhelming Soul archetype a bit.

Over all you give up a ton of potential power, for a more safer class?
Overwhelming Power just automatically gives you a bonus to attack and dam every 3 levels? But normal Elemental Overflow could see you gain a +2 size bonus to two different physical stats, bonus to attack equal to the 1 per 3 kineticist levels, and double that bonus to damage, both are relative to the amount of burn you take.

... this doesn't seem like a even trade.

Question two, with Overwhelming Soul, and Aether as my primary element, at 7th level how much damage do I do? Cha is 18

With Telekinetic Blast is it 4d6+4+Cha Mod+2 from Overwhelming Power?4d6+10 if within 30ft +1 to hit and dam from Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot. So best case scenario 4d6+11, for a Telekinetic Blast.

However if I use a Force blast it's 4d6+2+2 from Overwhelming Power, vs Touch AC. Also +1 to hit and dam if within 30ft.

However the Flurry of Blast wild talent throws me off a bit. Do even though it says to calculate all atacks as if you were a 1st level kineticist that does mean i don't get Overwhelming Power bonus to hit and damage?


Melkiador wrote:

After the TK Haul is used, it should no longer matter if the boulder becomes attended or not. Being unattended only matters during “casting”.

It should also be mentioned that basic TK simply says it works on objects, without mentioning the objects needing to be unattended. So there is a small chance that it works on attended objects too, unlike mage hand. It’s worth asking your DM about, because it’s open to interpretation, but I suspect many will think it remains limited to unattended.

Quote:
This ability is similar to mage hand, except you can move an object that weighs up to 5 pounds per 2 kineticist levels you possess (minimum 5 pounds), and you can move magical objects.

What makes you believe that the target going from valid to invalid doesn't make the spell fail? Attended has a very loose definition, mainly to stop players from trying to abuse abilities like this.

If the GM is cool with it, you're fine. But by a strict interpretation your floating object becomes attended as soon as a creature tries to touch it.


Mako Senako wrote:

yeah I was thinking TK Haul could lift me by my feet or any objects that are securely fastened to me... hmm, so if you slit a boulder in half and sat on the flat part and moved it with TK Haul is the boulder unattened?

Unattended is a sword on a table.

Attended is a sword anywhere in contact with a person. That means in the person's hand, in a scabbard on his belt, in a backpack on his back, or even held down by his foot.


Also im looking at Force Ward, the Defensive Wild Talent of the Aether element.

Considering im a Overwhelming Soul, my interpretation of this ability to which I assume im not excluded is, that even when im about to use a aether blast infusion that is reduced to 0 because of infusion specialization and or gather power, i can restore a number of temporary hit points to Force Ward up to my curremt maximum forward maximum?

How can I use Kinetic Healer with this archetype on myself? Seems like outside of the Mental Prowess I can't. However I can still heal others as much as they want so long as they take the nonlethal damage equal to their character level.

Correct?


Mako Senako wrote:

So help me understand the Overwhelming Soul archetype a bit.

Yes, the Overwhelming Soul gives up the major benefits of burn. lets look at a 7th level Kinetisist vs a Overwhelming Soul

At 7th the Kinetisist will receive...+0/+0 until they accept some burn. After they accept some burn they will receive +1 to hit/+2 damage per point of burn to a maximum of (level/3) +2/+4. Also the vanilla Kinetisist will get a +2 bonus to 2 physical stats after they accept 3 points of burn. Sounds good right? Just remember you've got d8+con mod HP and burn can't be healed. Still, 3 points is totally worth the bonus you get and the +2 can be to Con which helps mitigate the burn, and further increases you damage.

7th level Overwhelming Soul is sad in comparison. +2 to hit/damage. Can't do anything that would accept burn. Can only push themselves once a day for 1 point's worth of burn. No risk, no reward. But hey, you can talk to people and tell them just how disappointed you feel.

Overwhelming Soul is a safe choice. Safe is boring. Play regular and burn a little. It is fun! Also, you can push to burn when you get into a pinch, and you're an adventurer. It isn't like you lead a safe life.

Silver Crusade

You only restore points to your force ward when you accept burn using an aether wild talent, not a blast. The inability to accept burn is a crippling weakness of the Overwheming Soul archetype.


Mako Senako wrote:

Also im looking at Force Ward, the Defensive Wild Talent of the Aether element.

Considering im a Overwhelming Soul, my interpretation of this ability to which I assume im not excluded is, that even when im about to use a aether blast infusion that is reduced to 0 because of infusion specialization and or gather power, i can restore a number of temporary hit points to Force Ward up to my curremt maximum forward maximum?

How can I use Kinetic Healer with this archetype on myself? Seems like outside of the Mental Prowess I can't. However I can still heal others as much as they want so long as they take the nonlethal damage equal to their character level.

Correct?

Force Ward keys off of taking burn. Reducing the cost to zero means no burn, thus no gain. You should be able to use your once a day ability to boost your Force Ward by 50%, but not to refill its temp hp.

Even a normal Kinetisist gets reductions to burn. They don't gain any temp HP on 0 burn, and there is no reason an Overwhelming Soul would either.

And you're correct about Kinetic Healer, you'll only be able to heal yourself by using Mental Prowess.


PCScipio wrote:
You only restore points to your force ward when you accept burn using an aether wild talent, not a blast. The inability to accept burn is a crippling weakness of the Overwheming Soul archetype.

A Wild Talent is still an infusion which is still reduced by Gather Power which means it can be reduced to 0.


nevermind i got the jest of it, i was forgetting that gather power only works on infusions, and metakinesis, and 1 point of burn of omnikinesis.


Meirril wrote:
What makes you believe that the target going from valid to invalid doesn't make the spell fail?

What makes you think it does fail? There is nothing in the rules to even suggest the spell fails. And if it did work that way, other things would break. Like haste would drop as soon as one of the targets moved more than 30ft away from any of the other targets. Which is really silly on a spell that gives you +30 movement speed.

The target line is for targeting only. Once the spell is cast the targeting is done and that line is irrelevant.


Melkiador wrote:

You have to jump through hoops to use TK Haul on yourself most of the time, and even then some DMs won’t be cool with it.

The problem is that TK Haul can only target unattended objects. So, you’d need to target an unattended object and then ride on it. But there aren’t rules for riding objects like that so you’ll have to work out how that works with your DM.

There is a second option to make a container instead of targeting an object, but you’ll have to check with your DM if it is ok to ride in a container, because that was intended for small objects and fluids.

Not sure where you got this.

Telekinetic Haul references Basic Telekinesis. However, while B.T. is similar to Mage Hand, B.T. does not specify an untended object.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:
However, while B.T. is similar to Mage Hand, B.T. does not specify an untended object.

This is true. And I did reference this somewhere in the thread. But it's a really subtle absence, and I'm not sure if many GMs would agree with it being the intention. Especially in light of the text specifically calling out magic items as being targetable. Any telekineticist should run that one by their GM, though. It might be nice to get a Mark Seifter opinion on that one, but I think it may be wiser for him to avoid that conversation, as he has in the past, because it's probably just going to make someone mad, followed by, "Well, it's not official anyway."

If you want to evade the "attended" issue altogether, there is always the bag of feathers option, where you use the container option for BT to hold a bunch of feathers and then just ride around on top of the feathers. The container option doesn't use targeting at all, so certainly never cares if an object is attended or not. The container option doesn't have to use feathers, of course. It could just as easily be dirt. But feathers are fancier, cheap and light to carry around, so I like the flavor better.

And the fact that there are ways to get around the unattended limitation may be a good argument to your DM that the unattended thing shouldn’t apply, by your above argument. Because, otherwise the difference is just jumping through some hoops. Either way your telekineticist is riding something. Why not keep it simple?


I can combine Overwhelming Soul with Terrakineticist can't I?

Designer

Melkiador wrote:
Cevah wrote:
However, while B.T. is similar to Mage Hand, B.T. does not specify an untended object.

This is true. And I did reference this somewhere in the thread. But it's a really subtle absence, and I'm not sure if many GMs would agree with it being the intention. Especially in light of the text specifically calling out magic items as being targetable. Any telekineticist should run that one by their GM, though. It might be nice to get a Mark Seifter opinion on that one, but I think it may be wiser for him to avoid that conversation, as he has in the past, because it's probably just going to make someone mad, followed by, "Well, it's not official anyway."

If you want to evade the "attended" issue altogether, there is always the bag of feathers option, where you use the container option for BT to hold a bunch of feathers and then just ride around on top of the feathers. The container option doesn't use targeting at all, so certainly never cares if an object is attended or not. The container option doesn't have to use feathers, of course. It could just as easily be dirt. But feathers are fancier, cheap and light to carry around, so I like the flavor better.

And the fact that there are ways to get around the unattended limitation may be a good argument to your DM that the unattended thing shouldn’t apply, by your above argument. Because, otherwise the difference is just jumping through some hoops. Either way your telekineticist is riding something. Why not keep it simple?

I feel like I've said before that attended objects was in there specifically both to avoid moving away somebody's stuff and thanks to playtesters wondering about moving a creature via their stuff, but maybe not. I wouldn't really recommend allowing telekinetic haul to move creatures, but as with all things, if that's what your group wants to do, go for it!


Is there a power to move your allies though? That seems like a really iconic thing to do and if TK Haul can’t do it, we need another new power that can.

And besides moving them yourselves, there’s the classic of creating platforms for people to jump on. If telekinetic haul can’t do this, we could use a power that could.

But ultimately, why have so many different powers, when telekinetic haul could have filled these iconic gaps without creating bloat?


Telekinetic Charge (from Kinetic Invocation feat) let's you move an ally.


That’s more throwing than carrying though. Still not the iconic carrying someone with your telekinesis move.


Hmm would telekinetics maneuver work? If they willingly let you reposition them?

Also what about using Foe Throw for the loose version (where the object takes no damage).

Also, the telekinesis power is a lot like Telekinesis spell (minus the combat maneuver and violent trust). Of cource, you have Telekinetic Maneuver for Maneuvers and Many Throw/Telekinetic Blast for Violent Trust.

Designer

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Melkiador wrote:

Is there a power to move your allies though? That seems like a really iconic thing to do and if TK Haul can’t do it, we need another new power that can.

And besides moving them yourselves, there’s the classic of creating platforms for people to jump on. If telekinetic haul can’t do this, we could use a power that could.

But ultimately, why have so many different powers, when telekinetic haul could have filled these iconic gaps without creating bloat?

I feel like no matter if you decide to go with the intent on telekinetic haul or not, you can probably get away with a jump-off platform. For instance, if you've ever played the Trine series of games, the wizard can telekinetically move an unattended object but the moment it touches another character it falls. You can still do leap combos where the block falls just after the fighter or rogue leaps onto it and uses it as a platform.

As to just gently moving your ally, the problem is that PF1 is a game where positioning someone and particularly full attacks are such a power disparity that the ability to do so is drastically more powerful than it should be (because getting a full attack instead of moving is so ridiculously more powerful for a melee character). I intentionally did not put that option in there so that the telekineticist did not receive pressure from the team's melee characters to play a taxi every round, which could happen with an at-will class like the kineticist. If we ever see a PF2 kineticist, I would be delighted to include such an option for the telekineticist.

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