Side By Side Iconic Evolution Comparisons


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is intentional. She is not human and the PF2 art is intended to emphasize that with her proportions. I think it's a solid choice and like the new look.
The new look does make some of her aesthetic choices make less sense.
Uh...what aesthetic choices are you referring to? I'm sincerely confused.
Specificly the part of her outfit that has the breast window when she seems to be now as flat as a washboard.

Washboards aren't flat? That's why we call abs washboard abs, because they're not flat.


Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is intentional. She is not human and the PF2 art is intended to emphasize that with her proportions. I think it's a solid choice and like the new look.
The new look does make some of her aesthetic choices make less sense.
Uh...what aesthetic choices are you referring to? I'm sincerely confused.
Specificly the part of her outfit that has the breast window when she seems to be now as flat as a washboard.

In golarion showing more skin is for safety, everyone knows your enemies are less prone to attack you where you have exposed skin, just look at Amiri.

Dark Archive

Nicos wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is intentional. She is not human and the PF2 art is intended to emphasize that with her proportions. I think it's a solid choice and like the new look.
The new look does make some of her aesthetic choices make less sense.
Uh...what aesthetic choices are you referring to? I'm sincerely confused.
Specificly the part of her outfit that has the breast window when she seems to be now as flat as a washboard.
In golarion showing more skin is for safety, everyone knows your enemies are less prone to attack you where you have exposed skin, just look at Amiri.

Admitadly did seem to be the case for the mythic characters


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

Funny, I always thought the 1e art showed its anime influence a bit too much for my taste. The 2e art, less so, which is why I think I generally prefer it.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Cori Marie wrote:
Alright Here is an updated copy with better resolution for the new looks Sorry about that.

This post marks the exact moment that I realized that old-school Lem had hairless toes and new-school Lem's toes are appropriately hairy.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
This is intentional. She is not human and the PF2 art is intended to emphasize that with her proportions. I think it's a solid choice and like the new look.
The new look does make some of her aesthetic choices make less sense.
Uh...what aesthetic choices are you referring to? I'm sincerely confused.
Specificly the part of her outfit that has the breast window when she seems to be now as flat as a washboard.

I am somewhat confused by the implication - does one need to be well endowed to have a breast window?

Also: WOW the higher resolution pics made a huge difference in comparing the two side-by-side. XD

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager

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Doktor Weasel wrote:

That's very likely true. I noticed that the playtest book (at least the PDF, I haven't looked as much at the hard-copy) also has some really fuzzy artwork, where it's clear they used a lower rez version than the original and it's scaled up too large. For example: Page 202, Page 231, Page 249, Page 257 and page 273.

Those are all cover images that originally appeared much larger than they do in the Playtest book, so it wasn't that we upscaled a low-res image. Other than iconics, almost everything Wayne's ever done for us is a cover, and those are typically the most high res of anything we get because they occupy an entire page and often posters and other large format items.

Dark Archive

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3Doubloons wrote:

Just for fun, I increased the saturation on the new Amiri and instantly, she looks less sickly and more menacing*. Hopefully, her skin will look less pallid in future pictures of her

* The armour looks weirdly colourful, but that's because I didn't exclude it from the saturation change

Wow, I like the more colorful armor!


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thejeff wrote:
RoastCabose wrote:

Well, it's interesting because from a technical viewpoint, I find much of the new art superior. Facial expressions are stronger and better rendered, poses are more dynamic and make physical sense, the characters are more proportional, and I think there's a better balance of low to high detail areas.

However there are definitely some things I like better in the old art, mostly relating to shading and shadows. The new art is pretty flat, in comparison. Plus I definitely see that Wayne likes to draw people thinner than he did ~10 years ago.

I can't say which I like better, especially since this is a tad unfair comparison what with the new art being so low res.

I remain indifferent.

Might be interesting to compare to the more recent non-core iconics. Is this a gradual evolution in art style or a deliberate choice for the new edition?

Wayne did design all the iconics, right?

These new iconics look to be done in a style similar to some of his work on Magic the Gathering cards. There isn't really a slow drift toward this style, it appears to be a deliberate design decision.

They do all seem much closer to a random dude off the street than a fantasy hero of any sort. Far more at home bumming smokes in blue jeans and a hoodie than adventuring.


Mark Moreland wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:

That's very likely true. I noticed that the playtest book (at least the PDF, I haven't looked as much at the hard-copy) also has some really fuzzy artwork, where it's clear they used a lower rez version than the original and it's scaled up too large. For example: Page 202, Page 231, Page 249, Page 257 and page 273.

Those are all cover images that originally appeared much larger than they do in the Playtest book, so it wasn't that we upscaled a low-res image. Other than iconics, almost everything Wayne's ever done for us is a cover, and those are typically the most high res of anything we get because they occupy an entire page and often posters and other large format items.

That is a good point. But if that's not what happened, then what did? It is obvious that there is some pretty dramatic lowering of image quality in some of these. Pages 202 and 231 are pretty extreme examples. Was it that the resolution was lowered for a smaller file size? Wonky compression algorithm? All the examples are in the Spells chapter, but that's a very large chapter with a lot of art, so I'm not sure that means much. There is a lot of artwork that looks great though, so it's not a universal thing.


I think some of it might come to paint medium (or use of paint medium) between the old and new paintings. The new ones almost seem like they've been done with water colours or oil pastels, giving these more fuzzy, less defined lines.
Now, Wayne says that he uses acrylics almost exclusively, but I don't know if it's just a change in technique then. Like watering down the paints so they function more like water colours?
Some of this other bigger pieces also show this, although it's usually a bigger scene, so you don't get the same minute details, and from further away, as these single character pieces.
It could also be that the old iconics have been more digitally post-processed (colour correction, saturation etc.), giving them a "cleaner"/more defined look.

Furthermore, Harsk is clearly related to Wun Wun. ;-)


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I think terms like "washboard" are a bit bodyshame-y and aren't the best way to critique character art. I understand the topic of breasts is going to come up when a character with a very silly boob window has that toned down, but when a character's overall body shape is adjusted in a rework it's to be expected stuff like that will be adjusted too. Talking about a female character's body in those terms isn't exactly welcoming, it's still comes across as sexually objectifying even if that's not the intent.

I am very glad, however, that Sajan finally figured out how the f&!~ shirts work after all these years.


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I vastly prefer the new look. It feels much less cluttered, and the faces are more realistic (when they're not another species entirely, in which case they look appropriately more alien). I also like how many tiny details from the old pictures have been translated to the new versions. The colors are much more vibrant, and everything is clearer.

Amiri's old face didn't make sense to me, while her new expression is wonderful. I also appreciate that her skin is lighter, since she comes from a very cold, northern country. The tattoo is more visible. She doesn't look like a supermodel.

Old Lem looked too fey, like a gnome. New Lem looks like a halfling. His jacket has volume. He's not wearing a thousand things around his neck. The flute does actually look like a flute. The waist sash makes more sense.

Kyra's downright radiant compared to her old self. Her face is much more pleasant to look at. All the components of her outfit have much more volume. I also happen to like the new Sarenrae holy symbol, reminds me of Minoan garb. You can also see her trousers, which I really like.

Lini is beautiful - she actually looks non-human here. Not that the old one didn't, but this version is even more gnomish. I love her huge eyes, they're more expressive, and her beautiful hair, her tiny dainty shoes, the bright blade of her sickle, her pointy ears, the fact her white skirt curls like petals, the shading on her face. Droogami looks a bit stylized, but I do like stylized.

Ezren's face looks more expressive as well, and I love his new staff and the magic circle glowing on his hand - definitely more of an archetypal mage than the old one. His skin tone is more tanned, like he travels more, and I love how clearly you can see the glyphs decorating the hem of his robes. I also very much like the gaiters he wears over his lower legs and shoes - they look much more tridimensional.

Meri is prettier, but also less human. Her shapes come down more straight, with less round corners. I think elves are better served, like her, differing more strikingly from humans. If you want a human with pointy ears you can always play a half-elf after all. Her armor is more muted in color, which I think is more appropriate for a rogue elf, her rapier's just wonderful (much better than the old one), she's, again, less cluttered, I really like her dueling dagger, and the colors of Calistria on the stripes at her side are more vibrant. I'm also glad Wayne reduced the visibility of her breast and her boob window is now a more normal neckline.

Sajan is fantastic too - I miss the old beefcake (I like Amiri with her bare midriff, but I also liked Sajan's pecs and abs). The temple sword looks much better, the bracelet on his right wrist much more visible, the blue of his outfit more vibrant, all the various details more striking. Not to talk about old Sajan's left hand - what is he holding there? In the new one it's obvious he wears a knuckleduster.

Harsk has more color too, I love his beard. His tartan is, I think, a new addition, and I really like the idea. His skin doesn't look ashen, but a nice ruddy complexion, probably more appropriate for a dwarven ranger. His gear looks less cumbersome, his axes are beautiful, his armor too is more colorful, even just in shades of brown and metal-gray.

All in all I really appreciate how much Wayne's technique has developed in these 10 years and I think the new versions of the iconics are wonderful. I can't wait to see the remaining ones too.

I also thoroughly approve of Helmic's observation - saying a female character is "as flat as a washboard" sounds like a very othering observation. I'm sure there are other ways to express that.

I'm also a little critical of the way Amiri's being described - sickly, on drugs, junkie... like there are no pale, skinny women in reality, right? And they absolutely won't feel demeaned by this kind of talk. I absolutely understand if people don't like this version of Amiri and can see the potential problems with her (although I don't honestly think old Amiri looked like a str 18 athlete either, at all), but let's please tone it down for the sake of avoiding shaming real people.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Roswynn wrote:


I'm also a little critical of the way Amiri's being described - sickly, on drugs, junkie... like there are no pale, skinny women in reality, right? And they absolutely won't feel demeaned by this kind of talk. I absolutely understand if people don't like this version of Amiri and can see the potential problems with her (although I don't honestly think old Amiri looked like a str 18 athlete either, at all), but let's please tone it down for the sake of avoiding shaming real people.

I agree with you. Her skin does not look sickly to me but it is not bronzey like the PF1 version. She is very fair but her eyes do have a sunken, "have not slept ever", look. That may be what some people are touching on? Also when you look at them side by side the undertone on the PF2 version just stands out more. I think this look is intimidating and powerful. I want to be her friend.


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Roswynn wrote:


I'm also a little critical of the way Amiri's being described - sickly, on drugs, junkie... like there are no pale, skinny women in reality, right? And they absolutely won't feel demeaned by this kind of talk. I absolutely understand if people don't like this version of Amiri and can see the potential problems with her (although I don't honestly think old Amiri looked like a str 18 athlete either, at all), but let's please tone it down for the sake of avoiding shaming real people.

Don't want to derail this too much into another Amiri argument - there's a thread for that, but I again suspect this is just different reactions to the art.

If this picture looks to someone like "sickly, on drugs, junkie" but looks to you like "pale skinny woman" that doesn't mean the first person thinks pale skinny women look like sickly junkies. It might mean there's something about this particular art that makes them think that for her.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Deadmanwalking wrote:


My only actual issue with the art is Droogami, I think. Whose PF1 look I much prefer.

I actually love the new art for Droogami! I understand that it is a more unrealistic look over PF1 but has this wonderful stockiness to it.

Droogami is a thicc boi now!

Liberty's Edge

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thejeff wrote:
If this picture looks to someone like "sickly, on drugs, junkie" but looks to you like "pale skinny woman" that doesn't mean the first person thinks pale skinny women look like sickly junkies. It might mean there's something about this particular art that makes them think that for her.

This is true. I know exactly what makes people think 'junkie' on Amiri, and it's only partially being pale. It has a lot more to do with her looking like she's about a second from losing it and murdering you. She has the crazy eyes, that sense that she's on the verge of being completely out of control.

This is one of the things I love about the new Amiri art, but it does also feed right into the 'on drugs/junkie' thing, as that look is very much popularly associated with 'jonesing for meth' or similar things.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
thejeff wrote:
If this picture looks to someone like "sickly, on drugs, junkie" but looks to you like "pale skinny woman" that doesn't mean the first person thinks pale skinny women look like sickly junkies. It might mean there's something about this particular art that makes them think that for her.
This is true. I know exactly what makes people think 'junkie' on Amiri, and it's only partially being pale. It has a lot more to do with her looking like she's about a second from losing it and murdering you. She has the crazy eyes, that sense that she's on the verge of being completely out of control.

Well, sort of. She looks like she's about a second from losing it and making a laughably ineffective attack that is going to end up as one of those WorldStar videos where someone thinks attitude can substitute for physical strength and learns to their sorrow that it isn't so.


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
thejeff wrote:
If this picture looks to someone like "sickly, on drugs, junkie" but looks to you like "pale skinny woman" that doesn't mean the first person thinks pale skinny women look like sickly junkies. It might mean there's something about this particular art that makes them think that for her.

This is true. I know exactly what makes people think 'junkie' on Amiri, and it's only partially being pale. It has a lot more to do with her looking like she's about a second from losing it and murdering you. She has the crazy eyes, that sense that she's on the verge of being completely out of control.

This is one of the things I love about the new Amiri art, but it does also feed right into the 'on drugs/junkie' thing, as that look is very much popularly associated with 'jonesing for meth' or similar things.

It's the combination, I think. In isolation, I like that look for her. If it was on a body that didn't also look pale and weak to me, it would make a very different impression.

Liberty's Edge

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Xenocrat wrote:
Well, sort of. She looks like she's about a second from losing it and making a laughably ineffective attack that is going to end up as one of those WorldStar videos where someone thinks attitude can substitute for physical strength and learns to their sorrow that it isn't so.

Attitude can't, but rage and willingness to hurt people can, I assure you. People are easy to hurt or kill if you're willing to and have something sharp, and adrenaline is a hell of a drug.

thejeff wrote:
It's the combination, I think. In isolation, I like that look for her. If it was on a body that didn't also look pale and weak to me, it would make a very different impression.

Oh, I agree it's the combination. I'm just noting that it's not the paleness and skinniness in isolation.


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Amri, to me, looks like she's dead. I think between the scars, her skin color, and her sunken eyes, she looks like she's literally undead. She's not so much pale like she's from a cold climate (her revealing outfit doesn't really reflect that anyways) but grey like a corpse. I think it'd work better for a more death or necromancy themed character like an assassin or, well, a necromancer than a barbarian that's supposed to be full of piss and vinegar.

I definitely agree that we should be careful not to critique her in terms of beauty or attractiveness, though, and the goal isn't for her to look "good" but rather appropriate for her class. She's going to look like s%#* because she's a half wild murderhobo.

I'm also not the biggest fan that her f@&~off huge sword isn't quite as imposing or in-focus. Might just be personal preference as I did actually really enjoy all the detail on the doodads in PF1, but between the colors on it, the seemingly smaller size, and it being held more to the side instead of actually being in the foreground to imply it's of significant importance to the character, it just feels a bit less exciting, it doesn't fuel my imagination quite so much. The shape of the tip is a bit more exaggerated, though, and I do like that.

Hard to really say, though, as I remember I made characters a decade ago while looking at the original art - I have much more of an image in my head of what these characters are "supposed" to look like, and even things that people seem to like like their new poses seem "wrong" to me as I liked their unnatural posing that was fantastical, sort of like they'd be on a playing card rather than a picture of a real person. It's hard to tell if my dislike of some of the changes are little more than a generalized aversion to something I liked being changed, because I'm almost certain I'd be less opinionated about them if I was looking at these in isolation or at least saw the new art first.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

That's definitely a thing, Helmic. I'm bracing myself for when Valeros drops - I know my initial reaction is almost certainly going to "you changed it and now it sucks". XD

Dark Archive

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I've always pictured the Kellids as looking darker, like Cimmerians, so the paler Amiri doesn't suit me, but that's my own headcanon, and not obviously anything Paizo has adopted. They could be as pale as Ulfen, for all I know.

I do prefer the more 'super-hero-y' physique of the earlier iconic pictures to the skinnier versions, but then again, I'm a huge comic book fan, so I've grown up on fantasy peeps having unrealistic physiques. :)

(At least they don't all have eight-packs and pouches on their headbands...)

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Set wrote:

I've always pictured the Kellids as looking darker, like Cimmerians, so the paler Amiri doesn't suit me, but that's my own headcanon, and not obviously anything Paizo has adopted. They could be as pale as Ulfen, for all I know.

They run a bit of a gamut. If you look at page 32 of Inner Sea Races, you'll note that the "iconic" Kellid is very pale and actually looks a lot like the updated Amiri art, whereas the piece on the following spread showing the other side of the range has red hair and a more tan complexion.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I... don't like the new art. I've been teetering back and forth on whether or not to order PF2 for a while, and this very well may push me away from it entirely.

For me, and only speaking for me, I like going through the books and looking at the art. If I'm not going to be running it, which is often likely, I can at least enjoy the visuals and use them as inspiration for other things.

With the updated versions of hobgoblins we saw, plus the changes to all the iconics, and especially to my favorite species of all, elves... it's depressing to me.

The only reason I even bother saying this is because if I don't, Paizo won't know. But most likely I won't be getting PF2, with this being one of the deciding factors.


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Can we agree that Lini got the best improvement? She looks all cute and anime, definitely more fey-like and not just a green halfling. Huge win here!

And we should be allowed to criticize a female character's design without being labeled as "objectifying of women". I got some real concerns with Amiri and Merisiel in the new version and I believe all feedback has some value.
Am def not seeing the High STR/CON of Amiri and would really like to see Meri from a different angle or different outfit because the anatomy just doesn't add up in that particular artwork.

Dark Archive

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Cydeth wrote:

I... don't like the new art. I've been teetering back and forth on whether or not to order PF2 for a while, and this very well may push me away from it entirely.

For me, and only speaking for me, I like going through the books and looking at the art. If I'm not going to be running it, which is often likely, I can at least enjoy the visuals and use them as inspiration for other things.

With the updated versions of hobgoblins we saw, plus the changes to all the iconics, and especially to my favorite species of all, elves... it's depressing to me.

The only reason I even bother saying this is because if I don't, Paizo won't know. But most likely I won't be getting PF2, with this being one of the deciding factors.

In the same boat may still get the first ap but likely just gonna be that.


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There are images I don't like overall that still have some redeeming qualities to my eyes. Except for Sajan, whose new image seems to be a pure downgrade compared to the PF1 one.


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ChibiNyan wrote:
Can we agree that Lini got the best improvement? She looks all cute and anime, definitely more fey-like and not just a green halfling. Huge win here!

Nope. This is the internet, we can't agree on anything, including the color of a dress or what odd word some dude is saying.

And as if to demonstrate that, Lini's picture is the one that I dislike the changes the most. The first one looked like an non-human adult, while this new one looks like a big-headed child. She really doesn't seem so non-human or fey to me, just underage. I always thought the design of PF gnomes was always one of the better ones, so I didn't see the need for proportion changes and the like. She's also the best/worst example of the simplifying of design. She's going from complex silver patterns to simpler lines. And the clothing itself looked more like something sturdy you'd wear in the woods, and now it looks like a cheap fabric. It really gives me the impression of a home-made school play costume. Her eerie long fingers are still kind of around, but toned down a bit. She's also the best/worst example of the 'fuzziness' I was talking about. Not the resolution fuzzy, even the high-res version just looks... I don't know. Indistinct? Lacking solid lines? I don't really know art, so I don't have the words for it. But it seems off.


Doktor Weasel wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
Can we agree that Lini got the best improvement? She looks all cute and anime, definitely more fey-like and not just a green halfling. Huge win here!

Nope. This is the internet, we can't agree on anything, including the color of a dress or what odd word some dude is saying.

And as if to demonstrate that, Lini's picture is the one that I dislike the changes the most. The first one looked like an non-human adult, while this new one looks like a big-headed child. She really doesn't seem so non-human or fey to me, just underage. I always thought the design of PF gnomes was always one of the better ones, so I didn't see the need for proportion changes and the like. She's also the best/worst example of the simplifying of design. She's going from complex silver patterns to simpler lines. And the clothing itself looked more like something sturdy you'd wear in the woods, and now it looks like a cheap fabric. It really gives me the impression of a home-made school play costume. Her eerie long fingers are still kind of around, but toned down a bit. She's also the best/worst example of the 'fuzziness' I was talking about. Not the resolution fuzzy, even the high-res version just looks... I don't know. Indistinct? Lacking solid lines? I don't really know art, so I don't have the words for it. But it seems off.

Well, I tried! Some of those points are really fair, but I just liked her new face.

I did never like her showing off that Sickle. The only person she can hurt with that is herself. In PF1 she was doing like 1d4-2 with it or something.


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I also agree that the shadows and contrast is one of the big problems. The best example in my opinion is Ezren's robe. If you notice it goes from very distinct folds and dark shadows, to very subtle flat folds and very light barely visible shadows.

The brighter colors are nice. But, with the shadow problem it just makes them look cartoony.

I dont like the new version of Sarenrae's holy symbol. The old version was very detailed and showed great devotion. The new version appear blurred and barely detailed, it has a "shine" but it only works to blur it more.


ChibiNyan wrote:
Doktor Weasel wrote:
ChibiNyan wrote:
Can we agree that Lini got the best improvement? She looks all cute and anime, definitely more fey-like and not just a green halfling. Huge win here!

Nope. This is the internet, we can't agree on anything, including the color of a dress or what odd word some dude is saying.

And as if to demonstrate that, Lini's picture is the one that I dislike the changes the most. The first one looked like an non-human adult, while this new one looks like a big-headed child. She really doesn't seem so non-human or fey to me, just underage. I always thought the design of PF gnomes was always one of the better ones, so I didn't see the need for proportion changes and the like. She's also the best/worst example of the simplifying of design. She's going from complex silver patterns to simpler lines. And the clothing itself looked more like something sturdy you'd wear in the woods, and now it looks like a cheap fabric. It really gives me the impression of a home-made school play costume. Her eerie long fingers are still kind of around, but toned down a bit. She's also the best/worst example of the 'fuzziness' I was talking about. Not the resolution fuzzy, even the high-res version just looks... I don't know. Indistinct? Lacking solid lines? I don't really know art, so I don't have the words for it. But it seems off.

Well, I tried! Some of those points are really fair, but I just liked her new face.

I did never like her showing off that Sickle. The only person she can hurt with that is herself. In PF1 she was doing like 1d4-2 with it or something.

I do agree about the face. That is nicely done.


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To me, new Amiri looks emaciated and sickly. Certainly not someone who likely has a 16-18 str and 14-16 con. Her skin's gone past pale into ashen, and the bags around her eyes look like she hasn't slept in 3 days.

Droogami looks less like a snow leopard and more like a tiny bandersnatch.

I'm not sure if I like Harsk's new tartan. The dwarves=scottish trope is dangerously close to played out to me.

I will say that overall I like that several of the new looks are a lot less busy, with fewer random bits and bobs.


Darigaaz the Igniter wrote:

To me, new Amiri looks emaciated and sickly. Certainly not someone who likely has a 16-18 str and 14-16 con. Her skin's gone past pale into ashen, and the bags around her eyes look like she hasn't slept in 3 days.

Droogami looks less like a snow leopard and more like a tiny bandersnatch.

I'm not sure if I like Harsk's new tartan. The dwarves=scottish trope is dangerously close to played out to me.

I will say that overall I like that several of the new looks are a lot less busy, with fewer random bits and bobs.

I wouldn't say Amiri's skin is ashen. Some of the old versions look ashen to me, like Harsk - Amiri just looks very white. But it's quite obvious we're seeing different things and that's alright.

As for Harsk's tartan, as long as it's just some fashion detail I think it's a good addition, it adds some color to the usually unadorned and boring dwarven outfits - I don't think dwarves have culturally changed much from 1e, they had a robust and vivid society that shouldn't need the crutch of the usual "dwarves are Scottish" cliché to work. We know they have some new things, like the clan dagger, for instance, but I'd be really surprised (and disappointed) if suddenly they were a people of short squat kilt-wearing haggis-eater who play bagpipes and like to get drunk and get in fights (just to mention all the stereotypes that come to mind).


I honestly can't look at new Harsk without wondering what he did that needed taking up the Slayer Oath. Karmic punishment for all those people who picked him as a pregen maybe?


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Doktor Weasel wrote:
And as if to demonstrate that, Lini's picture is the one that I dislike the changes the most. The first one looked like an non-human adult, while this new one looks like a big-headed child. She really doesn't seem so non-human or fey to me, just underage. I always thought the design of PF gnomes was always one of the better ones, so I didn't see the need for proportion changes and the like. She's also the best/worst example of the simplifying of design. She's going from complex silver patterns to simpler lines. And the clothing itself looked more like something sturdy you'd wear in the woods, and now it looks like a cheap fabric. It really gives me the impression of a home-made school play costume. Her eerie long fingers are still kind of around, but toned down a bit.

Agree with every one of these points. Especially on the non-human adult/big-headed child. If anything, Lini looks less non-human than before, and her eyes have lost their fae quality.

And, though chevrons be my spirit guide, the general simplification of equipment/apparel (and across all the Iconics) is lamentable. I understand it works for replication by other artists. Apparently there are some. ;)


Hey, at least it doens't look like Lini is wearing Metal Armor any more. The cloth seems more appropriate for a Druid.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Realized I wasn't signed in to IMGUR last time, so I can't add to the original post, so I made a new post.
That is here

Seelah can be found here specifically

Not a lot has changed on Seelah, but it does seem like her skin is lighter and I'm not a big fan of that...


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Seelah's look (aside from skin tone) seems to have not really changed at all. I like that her breast-plate is less pronounced.


Me too, very much. As for the skin tone, she's always black, but instead of an umber skin color it's more copper. I'm totally fine with that. The pose seems also more heroic to me.


Her torso looks very narrow, almost as if the armor were a corset.


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New armour is smooth rather than having boob junctions, which I appreciate. Also the new pose makes her look straighter? More heroic? Also good.
As for the skin, eh, I reckon it’s just the different lighting overall. She wasn’t too different in the comics, so...


She definetly looks better. The sword could had been slightly narrower over, but that's a minor nitpick, compared to the others


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Raylyeh wrote:

PF is for all intents and purposes a supers fantasy setting... For a less heroic game I usually suggest D&D 5th or other games.

I feel like you're really splitting some hairs here. Pathfinder is no more a "supers fantasy" setting than 3.0 or 3.5 were. 5e is no less a supers fantasy setting than its predecessors.

You're projecting what you like about the settings onto your interpretation of the art for each and that is a perfectly valid taste statement - but neither is categorically correct or incorrect


dirtypool wrote:
Raylyeh wrote:

PF is for all intents and purposes a supers fantasy setting... For a less heroic game I usually suggest D&D 5th or other games.

I feel like you're really splitting some hairs here. Pathfinder is no more a "supers fantasy" setting than 3.0 or 3.5 were. 5e is no less a supers fantasy setting than its predecessors.

You're projecting what you like about the settings onto your interpretation of the art for each and that is a perfectly valid taste statement - but neither is categorically correct or incorrect

Fair enough on 3/3.5 being on the same scale I do feel similarly about them, which is why I didn’t mention them. I’d still argue that 5 feels a bit lower powered but that could just be based on my limited interactions with it and the whole bounded accuracy thing. I’m not projecting just my own thoughts there. Everyone I’ve talked to about PF IRL feels much the same, which in part is why I said it in the first place. Though I understand that that doesn’t necessarily speak for the whole community. Regardless I honestly am not in the mood to argue semantics and other pointless garbage about a post I wrote a week ago.


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If you follow the Core rules and GMs guide guidelines for loot and stuff, Pathfinder PCs get WAY more stuff than a "vanilla 5E" character. The Weapons and armor can go +9 in cost and such! (compared to +3) The PCs are also a lot more capable and have silly modifiers, options and synergies. High level PF characters feels like mythic compared to 5e ones.

A GM can make either game more or less epic, but by default assumptions, PF is way more high powered in my opinion.

Whether this should be reflected in the iconic artworks is another story.

Liberty's Edge

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I'm with Raylyeh and ChibiNyan here. 3.0 and 3.5 are every bit as much fantasy supers as Pathfinder, but 5E is significantly less so. It's still certainly higher powered than some fantasy games, but not nearly as much so as Pathfinder.


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With the side by side, I think the only one that truly bothers me is Amiri. She's just too skinny to have a strength above 10 or so.

I like the face. It's more angry and dangerous, but the overall super skinny body types/art direction/however it's described the other iconics are sporting don't match a barbarian.

Rayleh, ChibiNyan, Deadmanwalking, dirtypool wrote:
5e vs. 3e, 3.5e, PF

I'd agree with the other three. It's possible to tell an epic story of superheroes with 5e. It's not the default.

Gut interpretation of the default systems is: 5e is a high magic version lord of the rings, PF et al is fantasy setting marvel & DC type comic book heroes.


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One thing I was pondering lately - I watch Game of Thrones (am quite the fan, actually) and you see all manners of people brandishing swords and other melee weapons on the show. Arya, with Needle, would probably be some kind of rogue or other Dex martial if translated to PF, but Jon Snow for instance is a very good fighter, and you wouldn't give him Str 18 if you just judged him on his physique. Same for Ser Jorah Mormont or Beric Dondarion. They do need it in PF, but they're not the typical big muscular people you'd associate with it. Ned Stark was another fighter who didn't look super strong, but if statted out would just need a top Str, just to be decently optimized. Podrick has become a very good fighter too. Jaime Lannister doesn't fight very well since losing a hand, but before then he was one of the best in Westeros, and he's another fit but not powerful fighter if you look at him.

Now, the Hound, Brienne, Tormund Giantsbane - they all look the part of the big burly fighter, sure. But that's an advantage they have over other swordsfolk, not their defining trait (now, the Mountain was probably more in the 20s, and right now... who knows. Probably even more).

Essentially, if you wanna depict a range of physiques for your martial types, even setting apart the lightly armored finess types for the rogue class, you just can't portray them all with obvious max Strength, they would all look the same and it wouldn't even be very realistic.

So, Amiri might be too skinny, sure (although that seems to be part of the art style too if you look at Seelah's waist) - but that's just the way you draw a fighter without letting yourself be shackled by the numbers on the character sheet. Otherwise all fighters and champions would have very similar, very powerful physiques... which just doesn't look like most warriors from fiction (shrug).


Roswynn wrote:
Ned Stark was another fighter who didn't look super strong, but if stattd out would just need a top Str, just to be decently optimized

Eh, I can't speak from the 2e point of view,but do he? Is the difference from 16 to 18 that much in terms of to hit and damage? It wasn't the case in PF1. Moreover, (at least from a PF1 perspective) If they are fighters and they don't want to be some babbling morons, then they would not have the point buy for 18 str in a low fantasy game.

Moreover, the Iconics are not meant to be optimized (correct me if that policy is intended to be changed in 2e).

So, 14 or 16 str would be just fine for a good game of thrones fighter.

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