Magus tanking with a dip


Advice

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So I have until saturday to finish up this character and while things on the home front seem to have finally settled a little, I'm hoping to hear if I'm going the right way. In the beginning I'll probably be the closest thing to the tank in the party (2 rangers so at 4 I will have help) This is for a mod in PFS so a settled group for a few adventures.

I'm still leaning towards a single dip in occultist for the legacy weapon and the rest is magus. Originally I was gonna go hexcrafter but starting to think that going misfortune, evil eye, chant route would prevent me from full attacking...not saying it is out but starting to feel like going a straight magus and debuff that way.

Stats are a tad rough since I went with a str based:18/20 str, 14 dex, 12 con,15 int, 10 wis and 7cha. So AC is 16 (since he was only level 2 I was leaning more on the occultist so was using a shield to bump ac to 18) and scimitar does +6 hit 1d6+5...when I bane it was +8 hit 1d6+7+2d6...Third level when I get another magus level I'll probably ditch the shield and I'll be able to hit with bane twice in a round.


Ok, first up are your stats set? 12 CON on a magus is gonna get you killed in a normal party. 12 CON and d8 hit-dice on the only front-liner is asking for it. You absolutely can afford to start with less STR.

Next, Evil Eye plus Chant on a magus is bad (as you said). Evil Eye plus Soothsayer is the way to go. You debuff them once, if they fail their save you've got them for the whole combat, if they pass it's only one round, but it lasts long enough for you tobmake use of it. Misfortune is going to take more of your actions than theirs, so I wouldn't bother.

Third, regarding hexcrafter/occultist. Both the occultist dip and the hexes are using standard actions. Hopefully you get a surprise round so you can avoid losing a full-round action on your buff/debuff, but even without it you're only losing the first round. When you start stacking these standard action (de)buffs you start using up more of your own time. You don't want the hexes to hurt you more than the enemies, so I might reconsider stacking these things.

My 2c


There are Hexes besides those you mention, as much as getting hexes though, I believe a big reason for hexcrafter is to get all the curse spells. Nothing is wrong with the vanilla magus though.

Personally, I don't think the occultist dip is worth it. Legacy weapon isn't a bad power, but a standard action to activate is going to hurt I think. Damage is something a magus usually isn't lacking in any event. I think delaying your Magus powers will hurt a lot. If you are worried about AC for the first few levels, spending a standard action to cast the shield spell solves that problem even better.

If you are the only front liner, I'm not sure the debuff route is the best choice. You usually limited to debuffing a single opponent at a time, which is pretty effective if you are facing one, maybe two, opponents at a time, but if you are right in the face of the entire encounter, debuffing one foe will struggle I think. You best bet might be just going for damage and counting on death being the best debuff. A good round of spell combat and focused fire from a couple of rangers should take down most foes pretty fast, and debuffing someone to near useless only to have a ranger put them down immediately after doesn't really help too much.


As a hexcrafter, you get brand added as a cantrip. As a touch spell, it is suitable for Spellstrike. As a cantrip, you will never run out of spells for Spellstrike.

There is also Hex Strike if you do unarmed. Evil Eye would be great for this feat.

I thought there was a way to get a hex onto a weapon attack, but cannot find that.

/cevah


Thanks for the responses.
@McCharisma With transmutation I could just change the "belt" to con to bring it up to 14 or better to move the actual stats? I need to reevaluate the hexes to determine how much I gain/lose to have them. My thought would be to utilize the legacy weapon or the hexes based on the encounter...probably not both, my thought is one round to buff/move should be ok.

@Dave Justus I think my biggest fear of the magus is blowing through spells in no time..probably a fallacy, but thats why I like a cleric for longer buffs. So to gain bane for a min for so many rounds per day on top of your bursting...not to mention all the other perks you can grab. I'm debating on picking up Rime spell with frostbite wayang...especially later levels. I'm also trying to have him able to be as flexible as possible since after this I'll be in a normal PFS pool..which who knows what I'll be with. But in the last session the ranged archer and the greatsword ranger did ok but I seem to pull ahead of greatsword.

@Cevah yeah I agree I thought there was a hex strike for weapons


When there's an attack roll involved conductive weapons can carry the effect, but I can't think of a hex which has one.


avr wrote:
When there's an attack roll involved conductive weapons can carry the effect, but I can't think of a hex which has one.

Well there's the BLIGHT HEX, but it's not a great combat hex.

You could use FERAL COMBAT TRAINING, NATURAL SPELL COMBAT and PREHENSILE HAIR to deliver hexes with HEX STRIKE.

It's a LOT of effort though, you need a hex, an arcana and 4 feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus, Feral Combat Training and Hex Strike) to make it work - and that doesn't even include the hex that you want to deliver with hex-strike. It also takes a standard action to activate your prehensile hair hex to get this rolling.

If you can get a natural attack from somewhere else (bite attack from race or something) then you can ignore Prehensile hair which helps with action economy and saves you a hex. It's still a lot to commit to before it starts working though.


A one level dip in Battle Host for a Mindblade Magus gets you heavy armor (and free plate mail) which you can just cast in because you're a psychic caster. Only one implement, but that's good enough for legacy weapon.

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ekibus wrote:
I'm still leaning towards a single dip in occultist for the legacy weapon and the rest is magus. Originally I was gonna go hexcrafter but starting to think that going misfortune, evil eye, chant route would prevent me from full attacking...not saying it is out but starting to feel like going a straight magus and debuff that way.

Misfortune + Evil Eye + Chant is vastly overrated, and really not something you should be doing as a Magus.

Misfortune is still decent, because it is a stronger penalty than evil eye; and because EE is mind-affecting (which many things are immune to). But you use that as backup when you cannot full attack. The main reasons to take Hexcrafter are the Flight hex, Iceplant, Murksight (plus Obscuring Mist spell), and Gift of Consumption. And, as mentioned above, the Brand cantrip.

Because the main strategy of the Magus is to use spell combat as much as possible. Deal with your low AC by casting Shield or Mirror Image (preferably in spell combat). Here's a Magus guide, HTH.

ekibus wrote:
@Dave Justus I think my biggest fear of the magus is blowing through spells in no time..probably a fallacy

Yeah, that's not something you need to worry about. A PFS party will have about 8-12 rounds of combat per day, so at level seven you can reliably cast a spell every single combat round of the day and never run out. At lower levels, you use pearls of power, Spell Recall, the Brand or Daze cantrips, or a handful of scrolls.

Of course, this is an incentive to avoid multiclassing.


MrCharisma wrote:
Ok, first up are your stats set?
Oddly enough, ability scores are one of the few things that are *not tracked* in PFS. (I.e., you can cheat like the dickens reordering them as you please, and no one without a Vegas card-counter's memory will ever notice, unless you're like a super barbarian one minute, and then a kitten-weak TWF'er after leveling.)
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12 CON on a magus is gonna get you killed in a normal party, and d8 hit-dice on the only front-liner is asking for it. You absolutely can afford to start with less STR.
Yes. Way less strength. In fact, all of it less. He should just dump strength and go dex (see below).
ekibus wrote:
So I have until saturday to finish up this character...

Nah, you have a lot longer than that, and here's why (aside from the stat-tweakty stuff alluded to up top): PFS characters are not set in stone until they're 2nd level. I.e., you can play a STR:20 barbarian for 1st level, and then entirely rebuilt the character.

(If you're in a home-game that is merely using PFS mods, well, that's obviously different.)

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I'm still leaning towards a single dip in occultist for the legacy weapon and the rest is magus.
Legacy Weapon (Occultist Implements/Transmutaion) is absolutely useless to you: You'll be taking on a second BAB:0 class for the ability to use a standard action to grant a +1 enhancement bonus to a weapon. The bonus is locked at +1 because it's tied to levels of Occultist (and you're just dipping the class), and immediately obsolete as soon as you acquire a magical weapon.
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Stats are a tad rough since I went with a str based:18/20 str, 14 dex, 12 con,15 int, 10 wis and 7cha.

You're spending 17 of your 20 build points on an 18 strength in a non-full-BAB class that doesn't rage. ....do NOT do this (in any kind of build, let alone magus), and everything else is being butchered to pay for it.

Let's make point-buy, and race work for us:

STR- 5
DEX+ 17 (raise 4th)
CON: 14 (halfling, 15,15,14,14,10,7 20pt array)
INT: 15 (raise 8th)
WIS: 10
CHA+ 16

...or...

STR- 8
DEX+ 17 (raise 4th)
CON: 12 (halfling, 15,15,12,12,12,10 20pt array)
INT: 15 (raise 8th)
WIS: 12
CHA+ 14

Read every word of my posts in this thread for the rationale behind it.

Never murder your precious point-buy for excessively-elevated starting stats in a build expected to mix melee and ranged-touch combat; let size and racial adjustment do the work for you!

Build:

racial trait: Fleet of Foot
character traits: Birthmark, Dangerously Curious
01 Swashbuckler1 [Mouser][Underfoot Assault][Finesse][Panache], [any feat]
02 Magus1 (retrain [any feat] to Dervish Dance)
03 Magus2, Additional Traits (Armor Expert, Magical Lineage)*

(*There is no legal mechanism to retrain starting traits in PFS, so do not take Magical Lineage at character creation, but instead via Additional Traits later, then retrain that feat as-needed to "upgrade" the spell affixed to Magical Lineage! Armor Expert you'll also have need for, as neither Mouser nor Magus grant medium armor proficiency, and we'd be eyeing mithral breastplate with a need for eliminating the last point of ACP)

Result: much better armor class, far better touch-AC and ranged-touch attacks, and more skills flexibility with Acrobatics, Diplomacy, and Perception as class.

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Slim Jim wrote:
You're spending 17 of your 20 build points on an 18 strength in a non-full-BAB class that doesn't rage. ....do NOT do this (in any kind of build, let alone magus), and everything else is being butchered to pay for it.

You're being way too harsh on this.

Going strength-primary is an entirely viable way to play a Magus (as well as numerous other melee classes that don't rage). The main advantage is that it saves two feats - feats which are precious at low level and which you can spend on more interesting things than swapping stats around. But the str-Magus also deals more damage than the dex-Magus, and it gets decent climb and swim skills (which are useful in many adventures).

Yes, dex magus has better defenses; but you can compensate for that with your spells. Mirror Image is generally better than investing in AC. The point is that both work; unlike what your post suggests, there is no "one and only" single way to play a class.

Oh, and swashbuckler dip isn't great on a Magus. Occultist dip is actually better, since it can give Bane ability to the weapon.


Kurald Galain wrote:
Slim Jim wrote:
You're spending 17 of your 20 build points on an 18 strength in a non-full-BAB class that doesn't rage. ....do NOT do this (in any kind of build, let alone magus), and everything else is being butchered to pay for it.
You're being way too harsh on this.

I'm being exactly the right amount of harsh by clawing the blackboard whenever I see a starting stat of 18 in point-buy, and I'll say so regardless of class (save probably wizard). Don't do it, kids! Your other stats need love too!

PCs die like mice in PFS when they repeatedly blow their saves, and it's easy to blow your saves when you're relatively averaged -1 to -2 across the F/R/W board after stifling all three of Con, Dex, and Wis to come up with those 17 build points for the starting 18.

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Going strength-primary is an entirely viable way to play a Magus (as well as numerous other melee classes that don't rage).
I try not to use the word "viable" in these types of discussions because it's an arbitrary criteria. Bonuses, by contrast, are easy to count and compare.
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The main advantage is that it saves two feats - feats which are precious at low level
With the Retraining Rules, life is bliss: you keep Dervish Dance only until 5th in PFS, at which point you buy a +1/Agile weapon and retrain Dervish to whatever else strikes your fancy -- and you can even skip the Agile as well, since numeric bonuses to weapon damage are becoming an increasingly minuscule portion of overall DPR (I covered that in the other, previously-linked thread). In fact, while retraining at 5th with some decent hitpoints squared away, you could even retrain away the Mouser level and swap the Dervish feat for Weapon Finesse as a feat -- then you're straight-classed. (IMO being a Mouser/Magus is a ton of fun, however; you just waltz right into your enemy's square and dare them to do something about it while piling a ton of penalties on them just for being there.)
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But the str-Magus also deals more damage than the dex-Magus

His overwhelming predicament will be that he eats more damage too, and, unlike martial front-liners or divine-casters with swift-healing economy, he's not well-equipped to take that damage. To be sure, he can cast spells (such as Mirror Image), but then he spent a standard-action casting a spell and not doing something else; and he might not have time for that spell anyway if he's surprised (certainly a possibility with only a +2 to INIT, and if he takes Improved Initiative, well then he's taking a feat the dex didn't need).

It's not about the DPR, my friends and countrymen, it's about the ATTRITION.

(And that strength magus is going to miss more than his fair share of relatively easy ranged attacks. He'll be -5 behind a mouser/magus w/belt at/after 4th (and -6 behind if strong-guy lost more BAB multiclassing Occultist). So, is he really doing more damage? That supposed strength-based DPR gain may therefore be entirely illusory, yet comes at incredible cost nevertheless.)

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and it gets decent climb and swim skills (which are useful in many adventures).
As an arcane caster (and also one with built-in UMD), this will not be a problem for long at all. (Floating Disk, Levitate, and Spider Climb are on the Magus list.)
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Oh, and swashbuckler dip isn't great on a Magus.
I think it's great in my build; halflings in particular gets a lot of mileage out of it.
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Occultist dip is actually better, since it can give Bane ability to the weapon.

Is Bane worth BAB -1? ....I don't think so. You can always buy Bane with gold later, but you won't be able to get rid of the Occultist's BAB loss.

If you're contemplating Occultist, go whole hog.


@Slim Jim you took one of the most powerful and versatile ability (Legacy weapon) and made it into a really bad level 1 spell... Legacy weapon does add +1 to a non magical weapon, but as soon as you have a magical weapon it can instead add a +1 enhancement aka bane is the popular one..but it doesn't stop there Cruel, keen, rusting, menacing, limning, ghost touch..etc etc are all +1 enhancements you could add to your weapon as needed. Honestly my origional thought on the build was how to get as many attacks with bane the earliest I can :) The 2 +0bab does stink which is why I planned to use my "belt" to str to offset the penalty I would see early on...that and I have a boon that I can borrow a magic weapon 3x..so hopefully I can get a magic weapon before that ends.
As for stats, yeah they aren't tracked but I guess I'm lawful and rather leave it as I built it...Heck I have a level 11 inquisitor archer that was rocking his 10 con for the longest time. The only reason I'm making adjustments post 1 is when I played I realized the character wasn't complete so GM granted me mercy. I admit I was debating on going dex but was thinking later on going monstrous :)

Thanks for the comments Kurald I've actually gone through your guide a few times as well as the hexcrafter guide. Granted I probably should go through it again. I'm trying a slight variation with occultist and trying to tank so I had questions. I really think this character will be a beast for damage at 6..imagine bane, flaming and shocking grasp :)
Mirror image will probably be my go to defense, worried about using up spells for shield...actually considered using wand combat (or whatever it is called)

@PossibleCabbage That could be interesting, not overly familiar with mindblade, it seems to have a love/hate opinion going on, but I'll look into it.

Thanks all, I really appreciate the help..I cant seem to get more than 10 mins to work on this at a time. Even while typing my wife called and I had to change my plans for the day :P


So, the big benefit from dipping Occultist is getting bane 3-4 times a day for 1 minute at a time, right? Not the +1 weapon enchant?

To use that ability before you get a magic weapon, you'll need to cast Magic Weapon and then use a standard action to make it into a bane weapon. Giving up 2 rounds of combat to buff yourself isn't really advisable, especially for someone who wants to tank. Tanks need to be a threat on the first round.

My suggestion would be to build a pure magus and wait to dip into occultist until you can actually get full benefit from it. By the time you get your first +1 weapon you might decide you want the next level of Magus more than you want a dip.

As for the Magus build, I'd recommend dex based but not Slim's build. Taking the OPs stats change it to 10 str, 20 dex, 14 con, 15 int, 12 wis, 7 cha. Go human, first level feats are Weapon Finesse and Empower Spell. Pick up two traits that will allow you to add +1 CL to Shocking Grasp that aren't in the Magic or Region category. Short term Frostbite will be good, but long term Shocking Grasp is more impressive for a Magus. At 3rd level pick up Additional Traits to add Magic Lineage/Wayang Spellhunter and you can start throwing around 7d6 Empowered Shocking Grasp. Pick up Wand Wielder and you can start each combat with a shield spell from a cheap wand.

5th level pick up Intensify. Purchase a Minor Rod of Elemental Spell to cover for when you run into something resistant to electricity. Acid makes for good troll hunting.

Also instead of using Brand, I'm under the impression that Arcane Mark works just as well? No damage, but you get your extra attack each round.


ekibus wrote:
@Slim Jim you took one of the most powerful and versatile ability (Legacy weapon) and made it into a really bad level 1 spell... Legacy weapon does add +1 to a non magical weapon, but as soon as you have a magical weapon it can instead add a +1 enhancement aka bane is the popular one..but it doesn't stop there Cruel, keen, rusting, menacing, limning, ghost touch..etc etc are all +1 enhancements you could add to your weapon as needed.

Yes, and you're -1 to hit because you multiclassed a BAB0 class to get it. (Did I mention that it's a standard-action to deploy? By the time this magus/dip-occultist gets his Mirror Image and Legacy Weapon going, the combat is half over.)

Legacy Weapon is really awesome...if you're an Occultist who doesn't stop at level 1. (See the "go whole hog" link at the end of my last post. The OP might actually enjoy that more than Magus, btw, especially since Magus is one of the earliest "new in Pathfinder" classes, and a little lackluster compared to many of the newer ones. E,g, the Occultist's skill list at least doesn't suck, and he gets more points.)

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ekibus wrote:
Thanks for the comments Kurald I've actually gone through your guide a few times as well as the hexcrafter guide. Granted I probably should go through it again. I'm trying a slight variation with occultist and trying to tank so I had questions. I really think this character will be a beast for damage at 6..imagine bane, flaming and shocking grasp :)

I think you are right. And don't worry too much about numbers, being a single +1 behind the curve is not going to hurt you. Taking -1 to hit for +2d6 to damage is much better than Power Attack.

Meirril wrote:
So, the big benefit from dipping Occultist is getting bane 3-4 times a day for 1 minute at a time, right? Not the +1 weapon enchant?

Yes. And I agree with you that it's better to do this dip after you can actually afford a magic weapon.

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Short term Frostbite will be good, but long term Shocking Grasp is more impressive for a Magus.

Perhaps surprisingly, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp once you get regular access to Haste. Except against undead, of course. Your advice of a Shield wand, Intensify, and Elemental Spell is otherwise solid.

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Also instead of using Brand, I'm under the impression that Arcane Mark works just as well?

That is correct.

Slim Jim wrote:
I'm being exactly the right amount of harsh by clawing the blackboard whenever I see a starting stat of 18 in point-buy, and I'll say so regardless of class (save probably wizard).

The OP is using 16 with a racial +2, which is entirely reasonable.

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PCs die like mice in PFS

Riiight. If you have (say) +5 to a save, you're perfectly fine; but if you have one single point less, you're suddenly "dying like mice". Math doesn't work that way, and it is entirely not standard in PFS for anyone to "die like mice".

Slim Jim wrote:
Magus is one of the earliest "new in Pathfinder" classes, and a little lackluster compared to many of the newer ones.

I take it you've never actually played one, then :D The Magus's action economy (spell combat and swift action abilities) blows the occultist completely out of the water. Besides, single-class Magus gets bane too, albeit at a later level. No need to be alarmist.


The mindblade could be a interesting take. My knowledge on metamagic or items and how they interact with it vs magic is a bit lacking. For a moment I was hoping I could use a shield (I know greedy) but wouldn't work with spell combat. But you are right getting full plate for free would be nice.

@Slim sorry didn't see your previous post..also bane adds +2 to hit and damage along with the 2d6 so the loss of +1 bab isn't as bad. I'm not saying it is great by any means but not as bad as you might think. The dex route is a possiblity but I already have a investigator/swash and would hate to make a similar character.

Hate to say it but dex might be a better route since it will help the ac and init right off the bat. Sorry thinking and typing.

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ekibus wrote:
Hate to say it but dex might be a better route since it will help the ac and init right off the bat. Sorry thinking and typing.

Dex route has better AC and init, Str route has better damage and saves two feats. One is defensive, the other is offensive. That doesn't make one better than the other.

Silver Crusade

ekibus wrote:
In the beginning I'll probably be the closest thing to the tank in the party (2 rangers so at 4 I will have help) This is for a mod in PFS so a settled group for a few adventures.

The Rangers are going to be more durable then you are starting out. They have the ability to use medium armor, and they have !d10 HD. So no you are not going to be the tank with your current out look. There is a good chance that the Rangers have a higher to hit and better AC then you do starting out as well.

If your building for AC/Tank type character. You are very far off the mark in what you need for starting ability scores. Building for AC on a magus requires a Dex base due to them not getting access to better armor at low levels.

Here are a few things to think about.
1: Pearls of Power 1 are the best thing ever for you. Followed closely by Pearls of Power 2.
2: Hexes do not help you at all. You are a damage dealer spending time doing something other then damage. By the time you get in the fight it will be over.
3: Make sure you have a Range weapon. I recommend a bow of some kind. There will be times when you have no choice but to engage the enemy at range. You can use spells if you have them. They however are a very limited. Ammunition is cheap.
4: This is the most important one of all. Never multiclass unless you know exactly what your doing and why. Never do it because you think there is a cool ability. In order for a multiclass to work what your getting out of it can not scale with the class your dipping in. Most important of all plan it out methodically. The rate of failure for multiclass characters is high. Very few turn out better then a single class.

I did this build for another game but it will work in PFSP.
Dex>Int>Con>Wis>Cha>Str
Magus Kensai -- (Int Mod to AC as a dodge bonuse, Lower spell casting)
Rogue Unchained 3 (Evasion, Dex to damage with no restrictions)


Occultist dip = -1 BAB = -1 to hit.
Legacy weapon = "floating" Bane = +2 to hit and +2d6+2 damage.
Net gain = +1 to hit and +2d6+2 damage.
(You also lose a spell level, so the standard shocking grasp trick leaves you a level behind, but you still end up with +1 to hit and +1d6+2 damage most combats. There are some other variables, but not enough to make a difference till very late levels.)

The reason Bane is good for an Occultist but not good on a weapon is that the Occultist can choose a different Bane every combat. If you fight against orcs, then undead, then some human bandits, that floating Bane has been worth a +3 enhancement ... at level 2.

If you're looking at things other than damage output then yes the occultist dip hurts. It'll give you extra class skills (and 2 extra skill points), the floating "belt" enhancement to a tertiary stat (good call Ekibus I forgot about that), a little psychic casting and a single focus power (I recommend sudden speed). Oh and another probably-useless resonant power.
It'll lose 1 level of magus stuff forever. Not game-breaking, but it's certainly not something you give up without thinking about it.

For those of you who haven't been folowing along Ekibus has been thinking about this character for a long time. You may not like it but it's the character HE wants to play (personally I'm interested to see how it goes).

Regarding magic weapons at low levels, I was under the impression you could stack the Magus Arcane Pool enhancement with the Legacy Weapon Enhancement for a +1 Bane weapon at level 2 (Magus-1/Occultist-1). If they don't stack then the occultist dip probably isn't doing much for you =P

STR vs DEX.
Strength is better on offence, Dexterity is better on defence. As a Magus with Bane you probably can go DEX (and even skip Dervish Dance just don't dump STR), since you'll end up using a +5 Keen Bane weapon that also delivers 10d6 damage once per round (or however you want to play with spells), so it's totally viable with just weapon finesse. Also the STR based magus is equally viable ... ignore anyone who says otherwise. If you do go DEX based, don't dump your STR to 5.

Merril wrote:
As for the Magus build, I'd recommend dex based but not Slim's build. Taking the OPs stats change it to 10 str, 20 dex, 14 con, 15 int, 12 wis, 7 cha.

I'm counting that as a 27 point buy, did you mean 18 DEX (or were you including the Transmutation Imement bonus)?

@ekibus - Honestly I think you're over-thinking this a whole lot. Is it the most optimised character? Probably not (it's not a god-wizard after all).
Is it a viable character for PFS? Absolutely.
Does it have something unique to bring to the table? 2 attacks per round with Bane at level 2 is going to be very show-y =)
Regarding Hexcrafter, i say if you want to try it you might as well try it all. Magus is amazing, hexes are amazing, Legacy Weapon is amazing, it sounds like a fun character that'll have something to do in any scenario ... But seriously keep that CON above 12 (the "belt" will help).


I absolutely agree with MrChrarisma that the initial character concept with the occultist dip is perfectly viable and if that character 'sparks joy' for the Ekibus then he should play it.

Mathematical perfection isn't the only goal one should look at building a character.


I admit I probably am over thinking, but since I only get to play once in awhile, planning is 75% my hobby now. :)

Going the dex route would allow me to move my con up to 14.. but I would lose the option to utilize monsterous physique which was on my wish list later on. Yes I know I have a large wish list..but I usually aim for jack of all trades..which this character might not reach that but he will have a lot of options.

But don't get me wrong I prefer people to look and see if I missed something or know of something that might change my route...aka the mindblade has me thinking now :)

So my thought atm for str vs dex is that as mentioned str will save you 2 feats and you are hurting things right off the bat. Downside is the AC..worse with the dip I wouldnt get med armor until 8th level and mirror image until 5th..since I'm more towards the front atm this makes me nervous. While one ranger is in the front he went greatsword and ac is less than me with a shield. Now I'm wondering how mindblade would apply since I could basically be in full plate armor right off the bat which makes str workable.

Dex would give me 2+ hit, ac, init and reflex..but the two feat tax applies. I would then be able move stats a bit to make him take a couple more hits. I'll need to tweak the build tonight to see where I stand. I might take wand wielder asap to use shield every fight..might train out later on. Protector familiar later on to take some damage for me too. I will probably still go hexcrafter I will just move away from my initial path probably flight, slumber and evil eye but don't quote me on that yet.


MrCharisma wrote:

Occultist dip = -1 BAB = -1 to hit.

Legacy weapon = "floating" Bane = +2 to hit and +2d6+2 damage.
Net gain = +1 to hit and +2d6+2 damage.
(You also lose a spell level, so the standard shocking grasp trick leaves you a level behind, but you still end up with +1 to hit and +1d6+2 damage most combats. There are some other variables, but not enough to make a difference till very late levels.)

Well, OK; but this is more of an argument for adding a level of Occultist to any weapon-using character, not a Magus per se. (It also illustrates how extensive playtesting, at least in terms of multiclass dip cheese applicability, largely went out the window circa 2015. E.g., many home-game GMs are inclined to outright ban any Paizo title with Occult in the name just to avoid all the loony contortions that Id Rager, to say nothing of Spiritualist, truck in. ...But, it's a discussion for another thread, so I'll leave it at that.)


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I will have to disagree Slim, if this was so broken wouldn't the forums be crawling with builds. I mean seriously most posts you praise the savage technologist barbarian..there isn't a melee build (heck didn't you recommend it for a archer too?) When something is so great you cannot imagine a build without it...that is cheese, and that came out in 2014. That specific spiritualist is cheese no two ways about it.

Now as to why this isn't cheese: First Kurald posted on this...the expert in magus and occultist barely even bleeped for him.. he never even rated in for dips. That I think is pretty telling to me. (Not salty about that Kurald :) There is only so many times you can use it and you need to have a decent int...so most builds wouldn't really be able to use it. Heck you might even have to burn a feat to get 2 more uses and you can only do that once. As mentioned by others too, I have to spend a round to buff...magus usually dont pause long enough, instead they just spell combat things into oblivion.

Now why is it great? Well if you are dipping into a class..you are doing it for a reason..I mean that sort of cheese has been going on forever. Cleric has no armor? Take a level of fighter..oh noes that is broken! Sorry humor. So obviously my whole reason is legacy weapon...everybody is getting bane now, why not? Getting a free "belt" and my thought is to take conjuration so I can use a wand of cure without UMD...I know broken.

I've mentioned it before I have a nervous streak with blaster types I know it is a bit illogical but I'm always afraid of running out.Hence the hexcrafter and hexes. Then I will be able to utilize bane when I need to hurt things...on top of blasting things. I think it is pretty nice and always nice to have options.


Slim Jim wrote:
MrCharisma wrote:

Occultist dip = -1 BAB = -1 to hit.

Legacy weapon = "floating" Bane = +2 to hit and +2d6+2 damage.
Net gain = +1 to hit and +2d6+2 damage.
Well, OK; but this is more of an argument for adding a level of Occultist to any weapon-using character, not a Magus per se.

The reason it's so good for a Magus is that by level 3 (Magus-2/Occultist-1) you're attacking twice per round with one weapon, and you can enhance that weapon with your Arcane Pool so that Legacy Weapon is worth it. That's making more use of the bane ability (and it's going to mince anything at that level).

By level 9 (Magus-8/Occultist-1) you'll likely be attacking 4 times per round (spell-combat/haste/iteratives), which means you're keeping up with the full-BAB characters, but you're not relying on anyone else for your buffs (eg. Haste). For PFS levels this basically means the Magus gets more out of Legacy Weapon than anyone else.

But you're right, there is a case for this dip on any build. It's just a matter of working out the pros and cons and deciding what it's worth to you.

ekibus wrote:
I've mentioned it before I have a nervous streak with blaster types I know it is a bit illogical but I'm always afraid of running out.Hence the hexcrafter and hexes. Then I will be able to utilize bane when I need to hurt things...on top of blasting things. I think it is pretty nice and always nice to have options.

Re: Hexcrafter. The regular Magus gets Spell-Recall which will also help you avoid running out of options. I do think the Hexcrafter is generally an upgrade, but both have something to keep you in the fight all day.


I don't like the hexcrafter in combination with the occultist. You get 10 rounds of bane, and one round out of that 10 gets consumed when you activate your implement. You get 9 usable rounds of bane before you need to spend another standard action to keep going. When you have that timer running you don't want to use hexes.

If you don't want to use hexes then, when will you? Also your hexes will come at the cost of a resource that doesn't screw up your action economy: spells.

Hexcrafter is good, but when you are running on a timer with very limited resources (like your legacy weapon enchant) it isn't quite as good. Options in this case are raising your opportunity costs. Every hex either delays you from getting to melee, or are costing you 1 round of your bane effect.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

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ekibus wrote:
I will have to disagree Slim, if this was so broken wouldn't the forums be crawling with builds.

Precisely.

I find it pretty funny that Slim says numbers are important to count and compare, and then fails to provide any numbers at all to support his wild claims. So Slim, time to put your money where your mouth is: you claim that certain options are overpowered, so show us with actual math. Prove it. And in another thread please, because as MrCharisma points out, your "advice" has very little to do with what the OP actually wants.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Meirril wrote:
Every hex either delays you from getting to melee, or are costing you 1 round of your bane effect.

There are a handful of hexes that are either always-on (Iceplant or Murksight) or that cost an immediate action (Gift of Consumption). And Flight hex is one of the earliest ways to get reliable flight on a character.

ekibus wrote:
So my thought atm for str vs dex is that as mentioned str will save you 2 feats and you are hurting things right off the bat.

Yes. Also, are you planning on using Enlarge Person and/or Monstrous Physique? Basically anything that makes you bigger? Because those options work best with str.

By the way, the Vanish and Stone Shield spells are a great way to avoid getting hit at low level. Oh, and did you see the iceplant hex? It's a flat +2 to AC.

But basically, don't rework your entire build just to become 5% better at something.

Scarab Sages

I took an Occultist dip on my Kapenia Dancer, and it worked out pretty well. That’s also a much less optimal build than here. Occultist was my way of boosting damage for a build that isn’t a crit-fishing shocking grasp build. It also gave me medium armor proficiency, which with the PFS clarification on Kapenia Dancer meant being able to wear/cast in Medium armor from 8th level on. Other archetypes don’t necessarily have that issue.

Part of the reason Occultist works better as a dip for a Magus than other classes is that you already have a high INT, so you get lots of Mental Focus with only a single level.

You don’t need a magic weapon at all to take advantage of Bane from level 2 on. You have an Arcane Pool. You can give your weapon +1 as a swift action, then Bane as a standard. You’ll eventually buy a magic weapon anyway, but you don’t have to worry about casting magic weapon or anything like that.

My magus is more of a control/support build (trip build originally), and while I can get a decent damage output thanks to Bane and shocking grasp, I’ll often find myself using Legacy Weapon to give someone else Bane. Giving the archer an extra 2d6+2 is often more productive than giving it to myself. Or give it to the Barbarian or big damage dealer. And it feels less like losing a round to buff, because they can attack right away.

Monstrous physique works fine on a DEX-based character. Get an agile amulet of mighty fists and turn into a Charda. But that tactic is less compatible with Legacy Weapon, because you’re using multiple natural attacks. It’s not the greatest combined with Spell Combat, either. If you’re mainly looking at it for the size bonus to a stat, Infuse Self is a better spell. It’s 10 min/level, and you get to choose the physical stat to get the bonus. Plus you get some energy resistances.

Ultimately my transmutation enhancement bonus ended up going into CON, since I bought a belt for DEX to boost it more than +2. I used it for DEX until I bought the belt (which wasn’t long, since I took the Occultist level at 6th and should have had the belt by then already).

As Kurald and others have mentioned, Magus can tank very well thanks to shield, mirror image, and eventually medium armor. At low levels, it might be a little rough, since shield won’t have a long duration and buffing AC will compete with Legacy Weapon for action economy.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Ferious Thune wrote:
You don’t need a magic weapon at all to take advantage of Bane from level 2 on. You have an Arcane Pool.

That IS a good point.

Quote:
Monstrous physique works fine on a DEX-based character. Get an agile amulet of mighty fists and turn into a Charda.

Making yourself bigger (for the damage dice and/or reach) gives a bonus to Str and a penalty to Dex.


And if you go Bladebound Magus, you'll (pretty much) ALWAYS have at least a +1 weapon from level 3/4. Or is there some hitch that I'm not aware of regarding Legacy Weapon?


Meirril wrote:
I don't like the hexcrafter in combination with the occultist...

I agree with your points, but I also don't think it'll matter. This character is likely strong enough that even if they "waste" a round of Legacy Weapon by hexing an enemy they're still contributing to combat.

I say there's already enough optimisation, you might as well try the fun things you haven't tried yet.

Kurald Galain wrote:
<Hexes>

Man I need to look through the hexes again, thanks.

JiaYou wrote:
And if you go Bladebound Magus, you'll (pretty much) ALWAYS have at least a +1 weapon from level 3/4. Or is there some hitch that I'm not aware of regarding Legacy Weapon?

Yup works great. As has been mentioned a couple of times though, you don't need it. Magi can give themselves a +1 weapon as a swift action right from level 1, so they have easy access to Bane from Legacy weapon as early as they like. Bladebound is good though.

@ekibus: I think it's time to choose! The answer was within you all along! The Power is YOURS!


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MrCharisma wrote:
@ekibus: I think it's time to choose! The answer was within you all along! The Power is YOURS!

I read this hearing a cartoon narator's voice.

/cevah


Aww this has been interesting :) Yeah but it is thursday so guess I should finalize things.

I think I will go the dex route, forgot about the agile fist amulet so if I decide to go the monstrous physique route I would pick it up. Odd thing was I started to work in hero lab and it was saying that a scimitar wasn't compatible with finesse until dervish dance...and dervish dance only requires a perform dance +2.. very odd thought finesse worked with it and it required +3 dance. So plan is to probably go human and retrain at 2 to get finesse and dervish right off the bat.

A funny thing came to mind too (yeah it takes 2 hours to mow so mind was going) Going dex also means I can pick up a longbow in a pinch...Funny to take a longbow and turn it into a +1 bane longbow in a pinch..or maybe seeking...Granted it isn't something that comes up very often but I always try to have a bow :P

Yeah I have to read up on the hexes I always went the default 3 (misfortune, evil eye and cackle)

Anyways will try to build him tonight or tomorrow during my break

Scarab Sages

Kurald Galain wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
You don’t need a magic weapon at all to take advantage of Bane from level 2 on. You have an Arcane Pool.

That IS a good point.

Quote:
Monstrous physique works fine on a DEX-based character. Get an agile amulet of mighty fists and turn into a Charda.
Making yourself bigger (for the damage dice and/or reach) gives a bonus to Str and a penalty to Dex.

A charda is a small creature. You get a bonus to DEX.

A Magus already gets long arm on their list, and if they are using a scimitar, then it’s just a +1 to damage from the larger damage dice by actually enlarging.

Don’t get me wrong, monstrous physique is an incredibly versatile spell. Flight, water breathing, swim or climb speeds, etc. all possible from a single spell. A Dex build just uses it differently than a STR build.

Scarab Sages

I’ve on occasion had to use a bow with my Magus, and yes, being able to add Bane makes it worthwhile, since I’d otherwise have no added damage. You can always just prep a scorching ray or something, though, to have a ranged option.

I don’t want to oversell monstrous physique on a dex build. You do run into problems like not being able to combine natural attacks and spell combat. If you’re ok with that, though, getting 5 attacks a round is better than 3 (or 6 and 4 w/haste). But you can’t bane all of your natural attacks, and you can’t arcane pool all of them, so it’s not ideal if you’re doing it for the extra attacks. If the main thing you’re getting out of it is the stat boost, that’s why I suggested infuse self.

Do note, though, if you’re medium, you can turn into things like gargoyles and not take a dex penalty.

Also, to use monstrous physique to become large, you need 4th level spells, so with an Occultist dip and magus spell progression, it’s really a later part of your career option in PFS anyway.

I like monstrous physique more for a dex-based alchemist or investigator than Magus.


Man, now this seems like a SUPER dip for a Magus (especially at low levels) or a Bladed Adept. You should even still have enough points for both the physical enhancement and a few fights worth of Bane...definitely thinking about this for my next character in CoCT if my Monster Tactician bites the dust...my party needs some serious melee power...

Scarab Sages

So the interesting thing about Occultist is that you will get the physical enhancement and still be able to use Legacy Weapon. The physical enhancement is based on how many points you put into the implement for the day. If you put in 3 points, you get the +2 enhancement to one physical stat. That doesn't go away until you've spent all 3 of those points. So even with a minimum 3 Mental Focus, you can get the enhancement bonus and 2 uses of Bane. That just takes a 14 INT to get.

If you're a higher Int Magus, like mine, which is currently at 20, soon to be 22 (Kapenia Dancer gets Cunning Defense, so INT to AC), that means I have 6 MF with just a one level dip. I have enough to put into Transmutation for the +2 (to CON for me) and 3 uses of Legacy Weapon before losing the stat bonus, and enough to put into Divination for a +1 PER and two uses of Sudden Insight (not the greatest ability, but figured may as well use it).


ekibus wrote:
I will have to disagree Slim, if this was so broken wouldn't the forums be crawling with builds.
That's a premise in need of questioning...
Quote:
I mean seriously most posts you praise the savage technologist barbarian..there isn't a melee build (heck didn't you recommend it for a archer too?) When something is so great you cannot imagine a build without it...that is cheese
(I figured somebody might bring SavTech up.) -- And yet my posts are about the only ones that I ever see factoring SavTech, so, the forums are hardly "crawling with builds", are they? Additionally, SavTechs, as martials, will always be at the rear of the bus when it comes to caster-martial disparity. It's certainly received nowhere the amount of love that mutagen-swigging builds used to and may still enjoy.
Kurald Galain wrote:
ekibus wrote:
I will have to disagree Slim, if this was so broken wouldn't the forums be crawling with builds.
Precisely. I find it pretty funny that Slim says numbers are important to count and compare, and then fails to provide any numbers at all to support his wild claims. So Slim, time to put your money where your mouth is: you claim that certain options are overpowered, so show us with actual math. Prove it.

(Ekibus purrs in a condescending manner while refraining from citing an example of one of these hypothetical forum-overrunning broken builds to buttress his "Precisely" -- said lack of citation being exactly the horrible crime he charges me of in the same breaths. c'est la vie! How does that expression go again? "Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue." I alone must indulge these wild snipe hunts after the harangues of the sea lion.)

But why bother dirtying the discussion with fallible numbers that I might return with after interminable excursion to the wilds of the dark continent to wrest them from the natives -- when MrCharisma's are right here for us?

MrCharisma wrote:

Occultist dip = -1 BAB = -1 to hit.

Legacy weapon = "floating" Bane = +2 to hit and +2d6+2 damage.
Net gain = +1 to hit and +2d6+2 damage.

Along comes an Occultist dip that'll give anybody the Bane enhancement versus any creature type -- defeating the entire rationale of Bane being an inexpensive weapon enhancement because it has limited target-applicability in a game with a vast number of creature types. Aside from the action economy, that's better than handing out free Gloves of Dueling to everyone and telling that they'll work with any piece of gear you have.


One of the benefits of hexcrafter (besides flight and curses), is that you gain easy access to tongues and disguise self. Later on you gain access to Regenerative Sinew and Ice Tomb, albeit at lv 13 given the Occultist dip.

Sadly Iceplant is not legal for PFS. But think about it, it gives +2 nat armor and ensure elements, to you and your familiar.

***************
There are other useful enchantments besides Bane.


Ferious Thune wrote:
If you put in 3 points, you get the +2 enhancement to one physical stat. That doesn't go away until you've spent all 3 of those points. So even with a minimum 3 Mental Focus, you can get the enhancement bonus and 2 uses of Bane. That just takes a 14 INT to get.

AH! Just reread that part for the Occultist. But can I put more than those three points into Transmutation so I have more enhancements per day without losing the enhancement bonus?

DEFINITELY thinking of an INT-based Wand Master or Hexcrafter with this dip as a melee backup...


Temperans wrote:
There are other useful enchantments besides Bane.

True ... Bane is the most numerically advantages most of the time, but according to THIS PAGE you have access to:

Allying, Bane, Benevolent, Called, Conductive, Corrosive, Countering, Corageous, Cruel, Cunning, Deadly, Defending, Dispelling, Flaming, Frost, Furious, Ghost touch, Grey flame, Grounding, Guardian, Heartseeker, Huntsman, Jurist, Keen, Ki focus, Limning, Menacing, Merciful, Mighty cleaving, Mimetic, Neurtalising, Ominous, Planar, Quenching, Seaborne, Shock, Spell storing, Thawing, Throwing, Thundering, Unaligned, Valiant and Vicious.

I don't even know what some of those doz but things like Ghost Touch or Quenching are really handy to have in a pinch. Furious may not help you, but you can touch the Barbarian's weapon and he'll love you for it.

JiaYou wrote:
But can I put more than those three points into Transmutation so I have more enhancements per day without losing the enhancement bonus?

Yes.

You can put as many points in transmutation as you like (well, as many as you have), and you only lose the enhancement bonus when you completely run out of focus in your transmutation implement.


The thing is, with a occultist dip you have 1+int mod focus points. With OPs stats that is 3 until he can raise his int.


Slim Jim wrote:
Along comes an Occultist dip that'll give anybody the Bane enhancement versus any creature type

Right. And that's good. Great even. But the reason it's so good is that it synergies so well with the Magus.

First, you can't get Bane until you have a +1 weapon. For most people that's around level 4. For the Magus they can get this combo going as early as level 2 by enhancing their weapon with their arcane pool. This early entry is good because at this level you're probably doubling your damage output - sure 2d6 bonus damage is good at level 10, but at level 2 it's amazing.

Second, your Mental Focus is going to be INT+1. For most combat characters this means they'll only be able to use this a couple of times a day, but for an INT-based character they'll be able to use it a lot. Sure a Wizard could use this all day, but why would they? Magus just happens to be an INT-based combat character.

Third, Bane is a non-scaling damage boost. This means that the more attacks you make in a round the better you'll be. A Fighter/Occultist gets 1 attack per round until level 7, then 2 per round until level 12. The usual way around this is to get more attacks via TWF or Natural Attacks, but those don't work with this combo (unless you want to spend 2 round buffing, which I wouldn't recommend). The Magus is fairly unique in getting a second attack with the same weapon at level two, meaning you can get 2 attacks per round with Bane at level three, and 3 attacks per round at level nine (With Haste that becomes 4 attacks per round and unlike the fighter you can cast haste on yourself).

The Magus is the only class I can think of who can get access to this so early, and make such good use of it all day long - especially in PFS levels.
(Well I think I just convinced myself to try this on an Eldritch Archer for maximum cheese)

As for why you don't see it more often, it does actually cost something to do it. I'm in the minority thinking that 6th level casters can afford to dip without hurting themselves, but even I can see that there is a cost. The Magus is one of the best classes - if not the best class - for this dip, and even then it's something you have to think about. If you're playing at high levels the Magus can even get this without a dip.

Scarab Sages

JiaYou wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
If you put in 3 points, you get the +2 enhancement to one physical stat. That doesn't go away until you've spent all 3 of those points. So even with a minimum 3 Mental Focus, you can get the enhancement bonus and 2 uses of Bane. That just takes a 14 INT to get.

AH! Just reread that part for the Occultist. But can I put more than those three points into Transmutation so I have more enhancements per day without losing the enhancement bonus?

DEFINITELY thinking of an INT-based Wand Master or Hexcrafter with this dip as a melee backup...

Yes. You can put as many mental focus as you have into it. You don’t have to power your second implement. You wouldn’t be able to use any of those abilities if you don’t, but that’s not a huge problem.

14 INT/3 MF is the minimum to take advantage of the physical enhancement and gives 2 uses of Legacy Weapon without losing the enhancement. 3 if you don’t mind that shutting off for the rest of the scenario.

Silver Crusade

ekibus wrote:
Odd thing was I started to work in hero lab and it was saying that a scimitar wasn't compatible with finesse until dervish dance...and dervish dance only requires a perform dance +2.. very odd thought finesse worked with it and it required +3 dance.

Weapon Finesse by itself doesn't do anything for scimitars, but is a prerequisite for Dervish Dance, which is what provides all the benefits.


Lol should be working more on the character but here I am...well then again he is pretty well done..just debating on hexcrafter or not atm.

@PCScipio..just seems odd remember it being slightly different...ah well kids will fry your memory I guess :P

@Temperans Yeah I read iceplant and was all for it...until I found out I couldnt. :(

@Ferious Thune Yeah 3 points at level 2..I'm debating on taking extra points at 3..then level 4 will increase it...followed by int head at some point. For the physical enhancement, since it will always be +2..I plan to buy a belt of dex asap...then move the enhancement from dex to con (since it appears you can change it per day.) that way My dex belt can keep going up and I dont have to worry as much using all the focus...but then I might have too much :)

@MrCharisma I agree the dip is a tough call and probably why I've never seen too many do it. Correction I dont think I've seen anyone do it. But I really am not a blaster type so the magus always made me nervous..hexcrafter was my "fix" but with legacy weapon I might be ok...

@Slim Jim..umm..ok. I really do not think I was condescending towards you. Now don't get me wrong I could go that route...but honestly I have better things to do. That said your initial post displayed a severe lack of knowledge of legacy weapon...Then as a knee jerk reaction you put it in the cheese category..I attempted to let you know that while it is really nice...it has a cost to it. So not many will go that route... I assume you've been on the forums long enough to see cheese dips so I really don't see why you need examples. There are other classes that get bane without a dip and are far better (perhaps)

@JiaYou Yeeeesss come to the darkside...we have bane :)

Scarab Sages

ekibus wrote:
@Ferious Thune Yeah 3 points at level 2..I'm debating on taking extra points at 3..then level 4 will increase it...followed by int head at some point. For the physical enhancement, since it will always be +2..I plan to buy a belt of dex asap...then move the enhancement from dex to con (since it appears you can change it per day.) that way My dex belt can keep going up and I dont have to worry as much using all the focus...but then I might have too much :)

That is what I did with mine. Dex first, then Con when I had my Dex belt. I even went a step farther and would sometimes use it to put Agile on my weapon instead of Bane before I could afford an Agile bladed scarf. When there were multiple types of enemies in a fight without much duplication, that made more sense than Bane, because the thing I Bane might be dead in a round, and changing to another type is a whole additional use of Legacy Weapon. You won't have that issue if you're going Dervish Dance, though.

I've occasionally used it for Merciful, if we don't want to kill whoever we're fighting, Ghost Touch for obvious reasons, and maybe one or two others as one offs that made sense at the time.

I don't know if spending a feat on extra mental focus is worth it. For PFS, unless you're playing a module, 3-4 uses of it is going to be plenty most of the time. EDIT: I guess it depends on what your other implement is, and if you want to be able to make use of it as well. I took Divination, because the character has Profession: Fortune Teller for a day job, but it also gave me wand access to heightened awareness without using UMD. Conjuration is a good one for wand access to healing spells.


@ Ferious Thune You have a good point about the extra mental focus, at level 4 I would have 3 uses and I'll be a bit more comfortable. At level 3 I'm debating on taking extra arcana and get wand wielder.

Anyways kinda torn now on hexcrafter or not...really it seems to come down to wanting flight (which seems to be very nice in pfs from experience) or spell recall...which would help my fear of running out of spells.

Sorry lost power and my initial post. Have everything ready for today, I'll try to plan out hexcrafter vs base later


If you're not planning on being a debuffer, then pass on Hexcrafter...but Evil Eye and Slumber are great, and mean you don't have to rely so much on your spells, particularly at the lower levels, and by character level 5 you'll be able to have both Flight and Slumber/EE if you want. Remember that if you keep Spell Recall it will be competing with weapon enhancement for your pool points.

Let me know how it turns out!

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