The main thing is to try to find some way to make the off-hand katana count as a light weapon for two weapon fighting, or else you're really harming yourself. You could also remain on point thematically if you switch to katana and wakazashi.
Thematically, I would also suggest you look at the Warrior Poet Samurai archtype, which isn't a bad archetype.
If this isn't for PFS, you could take possessed hand and hand's autonomy to lower the two weapon fighting penalties.
Then get the dual-balanced magic weapon effect put on your katanas to lower the penalties further.
And with a class mechanic like challenge, it works very well with TWF because you get to apply your challenge damage with every weapon attack.
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I don't know if you have any specific limitations but there is nothing stopping you from just buying a Small Katana for your off-hand as that qualifies as a Light Weapon to reduce the TWF penalties and then you can still use any Weapon Specific Feats to apply to both weapons.
That being said, you'll still take another -2 since it's not sized for you but the cumulative benefits of being able to use Weapon Focus and a million other feats in conjunction with both the main and off hand weapon likely offsets the penalty to a reasonable degree.
@Themetricsystem, while strictly speaking that tactic is within the rules, many GMs frown on that sort of thing. I am one, who if a player came to my table with that I would tell them no.
That said, there really aren't that many weapon specific feats that get recommended, except weapon focus.
@Julius, I will try to make a build when I get home this evening.
In the mean time I would look around and see if anyone has any Warrior Poet builds. Yours will include TWF, which the chassis isn't great at, but honestly no class is very good at TWF. But the challenge damage bonus you will get will somewhat make up for it.
I will recommend you choose Order of the Dragon, which gives you a bonus to melee attack rolls against the target of your challenge, and the Chain Challenge feat once you get to level 7.
To start with I would prioritize ability scores as follows (including Tengu ability modifiers and 20 pt buy):
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 14
Focus on Dex>Cha>Str>Con>Int=WIs
For what it's worth, wielding twin wakazashi is probably superior to trying to wield a katana at all. The difference is that the katana is a d8 instead of a d6, but the wakazashi are light weapons.
The wakizashi can be used for either piercing or slashing damage, which is another advantage it has over the katana. But I assume the original poster wants dual katana just for the flavor of it all. Other options being mechanically superior probably don't matter to him.
You could multiclass samurai and weapon master fighter to get early access to weapon training and advanced weapon training feat (effortless dual wield is what you are aiming for). This will leave you with 8-9 lvls of samurai and 3-4 lvls of fighter.
Note that Warrior Poet only applies his lvl on damage to his challenged target on the first attack, not all od them. This is somewhat balanced by the fact that you can add half your lvl on damage if you apply your Dex bonus to hit and Str bonus to damage. Not as devastating as full lvl but it works all the time. Combined with weapon training, this can lead to significant static bonus.
The wakizashi can be used for either piercing or slashing damage, which is another advantage it has over the katana. But I assume the original poster wants dual katana just for the flavor of it all. Other options being mechanically superior probably don't matter to him.
This is true, which is why I kind of just added it as a foot note that might still meet the desired flavor. But if the OP wants to dual wield katanas or to wield a katana and wakazashi then they absolutely should do so. At a certain point making mechanical choices is secondary, and there are options to reduce the penalties.
Note that Warrior Poet only applies his lvl on damage to his challenged target on the first attack, not all od them. This is somewhat balanced by the fact that you can add half your lvl on damage if you apply your Dex bonus to hit and Str bonus to damage. Not as devastating as full lvl but it works all the time. Combined with weapon training, this can lead to significant static bonus.
Eh, the warrior poet adds their level to challenge damage on the first attack each round. That is something that I missed, but they still add half their samurai level to all attacks when using weapon finesse with dex to hit and strength to damage.
With regard to multiclassing...I don't think that the character can get enough levels of fighter to get any of the advanced weapon training options. I think you have to trade out a weapon training option after the first and you don't qualify to take the advanced weapon training feat until fighter 5, which out of level 12 build is pretty significant.
However, another option would be to build as a fighter that would emulate a samurai type. But it wouldn't have the unarmored aesthetic to it.
So it depends on what kind of character the OP wants to go for.
Actually, Weapon Master qualifies as soon as level 4 and can select AWT as a bonus feat without it counting as the maximum allowance fighters usually have for this feat. It's one of the reasons I suggested Weapon Master.
I guess OP could also dip one level of Warrior Poet for Weapon Finesse (Katana) and then continue the rest of his career as a fighter.
How does a 4th level weapon master qualify as a level 5 fighter to select the feat? Being level 5 is a requirement.
That's the part that I'm missing. One of the requirements is level 5 fighter, and I don't see anything that lets the weapon master bypass that.
If you have 5 levels of fighter you have weapon training 1 and qualify to take Advanced Weapon Training combat feat, but I don't see how you qualify for it before that.
Edit: just found that there is a special line listed in it. I didn't see it before on the source I was looking at. My bad.
:(
With that in mind, I wouldn't bother with effortless dual wield, but rather get Trained Grace and Gloves of Dueling, to get a +6 damage bonus from Weapon Training.
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I Don't have a Game coming up But I Want to Create this character for Future uses
Most the games I play in Don't get pass level 12
and most start between level 3 & 5
so I like Advice on a Tengu Slayer Who Dual wields Katana (this is more of a Flavorful build)
But I would still like to be Decent at combat
I'd like Advice on Feats from level 1-12
and on Stats. I am unsure on this
I'm currently playing a build close to this. Dwarf with two dwarven axes. The feat's you need are few how you get them is the important part. You will want a Dex of 15 so you can get Double Slice at some point. You should use Slayer Talents to get Ranger Combat Styles to bypass the Dex requirement on the higher levels of two weapon fighting. Just go in to this with the understanding it's not going to do as well as some other options that use light weapons. You could do the same thing using wakizashi and be much better off as they are light weapons. The thing to focus on with this kind of build is more like building a combat rogue and less like building most other combat characters. You will need to focus on getting a higher to hit bonus to cover the penalty for fighting with two one handed weapons. You can do this a few ways.
Feat's Should look something like this.
1: Two Weapon Fighting
2 Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Double Slice
3: ?
4 Slayer Talent: ?
5: ? (Outflank if you can get the other players to take it. This will go a long way to getting your to hit up.)
6 Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
How to get a higher to hit bonus on the cheap side.
1: Flanking is your friend. At low level play this is the only way I was able to hit thing with out needing to roll really well.
2: Menacing weapon enchantment gives you a extra +2 to hit for flanking.
3: Studied Target is a bit of a set up at low level play but after you get to level 3. It is much easier to use as you just need to deal sneak attack damage. For it to take place. Then at level 7 you can use it as a swift action.
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Sticking to your requests, here's my take:
Tengu Slayer
Stats: 18 12+2 14-2 8 12+2 7
Traits: Reactionary, Ancestral Weapon [Cold Iron, unless the AP is filled with werewolves]
Feats:
1 Possessed Hand
2 Ranger Combat Style > TWF
3 Power Attack
4 Weapon Training (Weapon Focus [Katana])
5 Shield Focus
6 Ranger Combat Style > iTWF
7 Unhindering Shield
8 Combat Trick > Improved Critical
9 Critical Focus
10 Ranger Combat Style > gTWF
Equipment:
- You start with a cold iron mwk katana for free, and you have +1 to hit with all cold iron weapons.
- Get a cold iron wakizashi until you can afford an Effortless Lace: this will make your off-hand cold iron katana light (main hand: -1 to hit, off-hand : -1 to hit).
- Use your main weapon in your Possessed Hand (main hand: no penalty to hit / +1 damage, off-hand: -1 to hit).
- Since you're getting almost no penalty from TWF, Power Attack is worth, especially since Weapon Focus is applied to both weapons.
- Shield Focus + Unhindering Shield give you +2 shield bonus to AC, which can be enhanced during gameplay.
Warrior Poet
Tengu fighter (weapon master) 4/samurai (warrior poet) 8 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Heroes from the Fringe 13, Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player's Guide 109, Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 263, Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Combat 18)
LN Medium humanoid (tengu)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 26, touch 25, flat-footed 19 (+4 Cha, +2 deflection, +7 Dex, +2 enhancement, +1 natural)
hp 84 (12d10+8)
Fort +13, Ref +13, Will +6; +4 vs. effects that cause you to lose your grip on weapons, +1 bonus vs. effects targetting a Wakizashi held by you
Defensive Abilities dancer's grace, resolve 4/day, uncanny dodge
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 wakizashi +22/+17/+12 (1d6+15/15-20) or
. . +1 wakizashi +22/+17/+12 (1d6+14/15-20) or
. . bite +14 (1d3+5)
Special Attacks challenge 3/day (+8 damage, allies gain +3 to hit), weapon training
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 25, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18
Base Atk +12; CMB +14; CMD 37 (42 vs. disarm, 42 vs. sunder)
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Chain Challenge, Greater Two-weapon Fighting, Improved Critical (wakizashi), Improved Two-weapon Fighting, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (wakizashi), Weapon Specialization (wakizashi)
Skills Artistry (Poetry ) +15, Bluff +19, Diplomacy +19, Perception +17, Perform (dance) +16, Sense Motive +7, Stealth +9, Survival +0 (+4 to provide food and water for allies or to protect allies from harsh weather); Racial Modifiers +2 Perception, +2 Stealth
Languages Common, Tengu
SQ aid allies, flourishes (jininsiel's guidance [improved uncanny dodge], jininsiel's guidance [uncanny dodge], petals on the wind), gifted linguist, graceful warrior, order of the dragon, skirmisher's challenge, strategy, swordtrained, weapon guard
Other Gear mwk wakizashi[UC], mwk wakizashi[UC], gloves of dueling[APG], 38,330 gp
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Tracked Resources
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Armor Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
Dragon's Challenge +8 (3/day) (Ex) - 0/3
Resolve (4/day) (Ex) - 0/4
Weapon Attunement (1/day) - 0/1
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Special Abilities
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Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Aid Allies +4 (Ex) Aid Another grants +4 bonus.
Chain Challenge When challenge target is downed, declare a new challenge target as immediate action.
Dancer's Grace +4 (Ex) +CHA bonus to AC (max Samurai level).
Dragon's Challenge +8 (3/day) (Ex) +8 to damage target, -2 AC vs. others when used, allies gain +3 to hit the target of your challenge.
Gifted Linguist Tengus gain a +4 racial bonus on Linguistics checks, and learn two languages each time they gain a rank in Linguistics rather than one language.
Graceful Warrior (Ex) Apply Weapon Finesse to glaives, katanas, and naginatas.
Jininsiel's Guidance (Improved Uncanny Dodge) (Ex) Gain improved uncanny dodge.
Jininsiel's Guidance (Uncanny Dodge) (Ex) Gain uncanny dodge.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Petals on the Wind (Ex) When foe provokes, take 5-ft. step before making attack. Move act on next turn 5 ft. less per use.
Power Attack -4/+8 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Resolve (4/day) (Ex) Your resolve can remove effects or reroll saves.
Skirmisher's Challenge (Ex) Add samurai lvl to damage only to first successful attack each rnd vs. target of challenge.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Strategy (Ex) Grant varying bonuses to allies within 30'
Swordtrained Tengus are automatically proficient with swordlike weapons (including bastard swords, daggers, elven curve blades, falchions, greatswords, kukris, longswords, punching daggers, rapiers, scimitars, short swords, and two-bladed swords).
Trained Grace (Wakizashi) (Ex) When using Weapon Finesse, double training bonus on damage rolls.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed.
Weapon Guard +1: Wakizashi (Ex) +1 CMD vs. Disarm and Sunder or other effects targeting your chosen weapon.
Weapon Training +3: Wakizashi (Ex) +3 to hit and damage with your chosen weapon.
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Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Inc.®, and are used under license.
You want to use Effortless Lace to take the Katana from a one-handed exotic weapon to a light exotic weapon.
The Tengu's Swordtrained racial trait gives you Katana proficiency, but without the Exotic Weapon proficiency, it is only a two-handed weapon, and not something the lace works on.
As a GM, I would let you use the lace, but only after you get EWP(Katana). I would also recommend you get it for both weapons. [You never know which one you pick up in which hand.]
/cevah
There is some argument as to if the lace’s wording applies to two weapon fighting, as it’s not an ability but just something that can be done in combat.
Since the Katana can be used as a martial weapon without the EWP, and therefore gained with any class that gives martial weapon proficiency, I think you would not get it with the swordtrained trait. I do grant it could be argued otherwise.
/cevah
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The katana is a one-handed weapon regardless of your proficiency. Same as bastard swords.
The fact that you can use it as a 2-handed martial weapon is irrelevant and a bonus feature of the weapon. It only means that, if you do not have EWP but you are proficient with all martial weapons, you can either use the katana 1-hand with -4 penalty due to non proficiency, or 2-hand with no penalty.
Of course this is even less important in this specific case as Tengus are proficient with katanas (which are Exotic weapons, not martial, hence Tengus count as having EWP with them)
And there is no reason why the Effortless Lave would not work with TWF.
Why would effortless lace work with two weapon fighting? Check the wording.
I don't like effortless lace as an item but:
If the weapon is wielded by a creature whose size matches that of the weapon’s intended wielder, the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.
To me there is sufficient room in interpretation that you can't say it "clearly doesn't work" with two weapon fighting.
As a GM I just ruled that this item doesn't exist, just like small size category reach weapons so you can have one handed reach weapons among various other rules.
But players are free to imagine that their weapons look like whatever they want. So you have really long wakizashi, that look strangely like katanas. They still do only a d6 of damage, but man they work just like wakizashi and look just like katanas. It's weird.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.
Do you see what’s missing? The bit about a light off hand weapon lowering the penalties is not part of the feat. That's the base combat option listed in the combat chapter.
Also
the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.
Note that the lace doesn't change the modifiers, but merely lets the one-handed weapon be used with some types of light weapon options. In the case of two weapon fighting, you can already use a one-handed weapon as an off-hand, so the lace wouldn't apply.
Well, the feat Two Weapon Fighting treats light weapons differently than one handed weapons, so the lace works for this feat. This them makes the penalty go from -6/-10 to -2/-2.
/cevah
Well, the feat Two Weapon Fighting treats light weapons differently than one handed weapons, so the lace works for this feat. This them makes the penalty go from -6/-10 to -2/-2.
No. The feat doesn't treat it differently. The feat doesn't treat light weapons any differently than one-handed weapons.
The feat says: "The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6." The lowering of penalties for being light is outside of what the feat does.
It seems like people are just remembering what they think is written without actually looking at the rules. And the way the rules are written, there is no direct interaction with effortless lace and two weapon fighting.
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Come on man, don't be so literal. The lace makes a 1h weapon count as light for pretty much every intent and purpose.
Fine, the way light weapons are treated differently is not stated in the TWF feat but in the TWF combat paragraph, but quite everybody considers the combat section to be integral part of the feat (no-one has ever used TWF rules without the feat). Do you really think the developers were explicitly thinking of excluding TWF benefits when writing down the lace? Considering a 1h weapon as light is instead a much more elegant and simple interpretation.
I mean, you were right at pointing that out, but the intent of the item here is quite clear to me, and I wouldn't expect people to enforce such a literal interpretation.
Well, the feat Two Weapon Fighting treats light weapons differently than one handed weapons, so the lace works for this feat. This them makes the penalty go from -6/-10 to -2/-2.No. The feat doesn't treat it differently. The feat doesn't treat light weapons any differently than one-handed weapons.
The feat says: "The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6." The lowering of penalties for being light is outside of what the feat does.
It seems like people are just remembering what they think is written without actually looking at the rules. And the way the rules are written, there is no direct interaction with effortless lace and two weapon fighting.
Dang, I read the "Normal" portion as part of the feat. That part states "If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each."
Well, a case could be made for the benefit saying "See Two-Weapon Fighting", which references the combat chapter mentioned off-hand light weapons as reducing the penalty.
/cevah
Do you really think the developers were explicitly thinking of excluding TWF benefits when writing down the lace?
Honestly? I think they kind of were. More specifically, I think they were only interested in allowing weapon finesse type options to apply to the weapon. And they didn't really consider how it would apply to things like two-weapon fighting at all.
After all, effortless lace is pretty cheap, and its price makes more sense, if you consider that it wasn't intended to do very much.
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Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Combat.Do you see what’s missing? The bit about a light off hand weapon lowering the penalties is not part of the feat. That's the base combat option listed in the combat chapter.
Also
the weapon is treated as a light melee weapon when determining whether it can be used with Weapon Finesse, as well as with any feat, spell, or special weapon ability that can be used in conjunction with light weapons.Note that the lace doesn't change the modifiers, but merely lets the one-handed weapon be used with some types of light weapon options. In the case of two weapon fighting, you can already use a one-handed weapon as an off-hand, so the lace wouldn't apply.
I'm not saying it's a clear cut case, but that's exactly my point.
You seem to think it's a clear no. I'm saying, the interaction is muddy. Maybe it works maybe it doesn't. I'll let individual GMs decide.
Obviously this argument is indication that it's muddier than you seem to think.
In any event, this is the appropriate place for this rules debate. This is the advice forum.
The argument is really just an indication that people aren’t good at remembering what rules do from memory. If you read the actual text, it’s pretty clear.
Advice should be within the rules. Otherwise you might as well just advise to not take the penalties in the first place because penalties aren’t fun. Giving advice that ignores the rules, is questionable advice. Even if you think there are chances for interpretation differences, then those interpretation issues must be brought up when giving the advice, so the player doesn’t get blindsided by the GM making a logical ruling that breaks his build.
Hey, my advice and my suggested build completely avoided it in the first place.
As I stated before I don't even like the item in the first place.
My build used dual wakizashi, which is thematically the same as katanas (in my opinion).
Question, why not just use a katana and a wakizashi? I mean sure you get less Weapon Focus benefits, but no weird rules, and you can still use a katana.Because the OP asked for a dual-katana build. When possible, I always try to stick to the explicit request before exploring other options.
I always try to stick to the theme, but unfortunately a lot of request just don't work with the mechanics.
But if you accept that katanas are just long wakizashis, you're golden.
I believe the OP has already stated that he'd be open to wakizashi builds.