This seems like the better choice so far. It allows a trade off for more prominate Heritage choices like you described, or a more versatile Heritage.
To add to some of the mentions about Adopted Ancectry; i agree that the feat can do a certain amount of what people are looking for, but with it, as of the PT, being locked behind a General Feat as early as 3rd level and the next Ancectry Feat at 5th level it doesn’t end up sitting well in more specific cases.
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What I think really should have happened is they should have just applied the same concept as what they did with Classes and Multiclassing/Archetypes.
Essentially, all Ancestries are entirely stand alone, and there is a pool of Heritages that can be selected (Artic, Desert, Tiefling, Paragon, Aasimar, Orc, Elf, etc.)
Then make them broad and universal enough that they can apply to any Ancestry as a selection.
It would have made things far more scale able long term, would have allowed Tieflings/Aasimar and any other Planar to stand on their own and still be able to be added to other Ancestries.
The issues with that are Lore/Setting ones, as there will be those that say "X shouldn't be able to breed with Y!" or "What do we call a elf+orc?". Given that Golarion is now integrated into the game, probably is a pipe-dream (at least without enough prerequisites slapped onto a given Heritage that it makes no sense to do it at all).
Of course they could have just made it to where certain Heritages have requirements ("Your base Ancestry must be small to select this Heritage" or "Your base Ancestry must have the Monstrous trait to select this Heritage")
It also would require gutting the system, so it's a bit moot to discuss.
In the case of Humans, you can then give them an Ancestry feat that allows them to select a second Heritage at level 1.
My preference would be for Aasimars to be an ancestry with heritage like "Musetouched" who have a level 1 (must be taken at level 1) ancestry feat that allows them to gain a heritage from a common ancestry (things like Grippli Aasimar should be subject to GM discretion). If you choose a small sized ancestry, this should make you small.
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My preference would be for Aasimars to be an ancestry with heritage like "Musetouched" who have a level 1 (must be taken at level 1) ancestry feat that allows them to gain a heritage from a common ancestry (things like Grippli Aasimar should be subject to GM discretion). If you choose a small sized ancestry, this should make you small.
If you can gain a Heritage via an Ancestry Feat, then what's the point of making the distinction that Heritages aren't Ancestry Feats?
If you're going to have to break a rule for every future Ancestry that gets released (most new ones will likely be Planar in nature) then it doesn't really make much sense to put the restriction in place at all.
And if the Aasimar/Tiefling are to get this "you can select another Heritage" Feat as an option, it would behoove them to make that available to Humans as well.
Even in the case of the above, it means Aasimar/Tiefling are stronger almost by default, as now they have a Feat that allows them to swipe any Heritage from anywhere.
Treating the problem like it only extends to Planar's is an issue for me, because it's more systemic than that. The other Ancestries need the ability to grab Tiefling/Aasimar Heritages, not the other way around. Otherwise you just funnel everyone into Tiefling/Aasimar with that implementation.
Either everyone gets to swipe Heritages from others, or no one does.
Tiefling and Aasimar are not so important that they should devalue every other Ancestry by extension.
What's the huge downside from having Orfs, Dwarflings, Gnumans? All it really has to mean is that somewhere along your past you had a little of "X" in your family (same effective thing as Planars) as opposed to a full blow "half" race, which logistically doesn't make sense even genealogy wise.
Elf and Human have baby. It is a Human with "Half-Elf" Heritage. Now that human has baby with Orc. He can choose Half-Elf or Half-Orc as a Heritage? It doesn't really work out.
However, if you made it to where a person chooses the base Ancestry and then adds an Archetype Ancestry, they can pick Elf with Human Heritage or Human with Elf Heritage, and in either case when that new person has a baby with another Ancestry, the Parent Ancestry dictates what two Ancestries are available as Parent Ancestry the next instance.
Even without the genealogy aspect, it's lacking.
The two major downsides I can see is every shade under the rainbow as far as characters go with Ancestry (which personally, I love) and it conflicts with certain Lore/Setting relationships (which personally, I couldn't care less about). "X and Y would never breed because ..." insert any reason, is something that a GM can choose to do on their own. There's no real reason mechanically to make the restriction.
If all Ancestries are also given a corresponding Heritage the same way Multiclass grants that Classes major crux, it could emulate the behaviors similarly.
Simply force non-native Heritages to have the stipulation "you cannot select a native Heritage" and wash your hands of it. So Muse-touched Half-Orc would be too diluted to notice the Muse-touch characteristics anyways, but an Aasimar Half-Orc does and a Muse-touched Aasimar does.
Eh, it doesn't matter honestly. The rules are written I suppose and if Half-Elf/Half-Orc made it over with their current implementation, the ship has likely sailed on any major shift in Ancestry.
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My preference would be for Aasimars to be an ancestry with heritage like "Musetouched" who have a level 1 (must be taken at level 1) ancestry feat
This is basically what Heritage Feats were originally.
I really like how the Half-Elf/Orc feats were made. Feelings on the Half Races/Ancestries being demoted into Human only feats aside, making something similar for Planar Ancestries but reversed i think would be a good middle ground for the people looking for it.
As an example; let’s take Elf. As of one of the updates to the PT an Elf is able to choose a Heritage of Arctic, Cavern, Keen-Eared, or Jungle. If you take Half-Elf as written for Humans as a Heritage and give it to the Elves as a choice instead, but with the ability to choose any other Ancestry as per Adopted Ancestry, it essentially works out and fixes the early issues with the Adopted Ancestry Feat as well.
If you take this idea and apply it to Tieflings, for example, it’ll allow for Heritages that delve deeper into their Infernal roots or as a template for others.
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While I like the way HE and HO were treated as heritages, I'm with those that prefer the plane scions to be a stand alone ancestry that's able to take either their outsider or native blood as heritages.
Something like: the boy was created by his human mother (Tiefling Ancestry with the Native Heritage) and the girl was created by the oni who had cursed their family (Tiefling Ancestry with Oni Born Heritage).
Native heritage could let you choose feats from one specific non outsider ancestry that most be chosen at level 1 and can't be changed.
Now that we have traits, an oni born tiefling could have the tiefling and the oni trait, while the native tiefling will embrace his native culture and it will be mechanically expressed with it having the ancestry trait from its native heritage.
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But truth be told that we are just talking about what's going to be the printed take on the matter. Given how modular 2E races/ancestries are, GMs could easily homebrew their own take on the matter.
I just hope there's no assumption that because HE are heritages we can't have tieflings as ancestries.
And what worries me the most is if half-elves will have just as much lore content for them as humans and elves will. I don't want them to merely get a mention in the human lore. That's my greatest concern. In a Second Edition race/ancestry guide book or setting book, I hope this hybrid heritages are covered in their own section.
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After reading more of this thread, I'm starting to like the idea of Aasimar/Tiefling as their own ancestry, since they already have a diverse set of heritages that are difficult to express otherwise. That said, I still think I'd prefer them being an open heritage that any ancestry could select, with different bloodlines either being separate heritages or something similar to dedication feats within the heritage (once you pick an ancestry feat specific to a bloodline, you're locked out of ones from other bloodlines).
Of course, there is always the option to do both in a way, allowing players to either start with the ancestry as a base or apply it as a heritage to another ancestry (kinda like current multiclassing).
Additionally, I'm also starting to think that having half-elves & half-orcs as heritages is a bit backwards. What we really need is a half-human heritage that can be selected by any ancestry. After all, "sleeps with everything" is supposed to be the specialty of humans, so why not use heritage as a way to express that?
What do you of a heritage feature similar to what was done for changelings with paternal heritage in Book of heroic races: advanced compendium including one for human heritage but for planetouched for nonplanetouched heritage
Very late with this reply, but do you mean to allow aasimar/tiefling to select their parent humanoid race to count as?
Selecting a parent humanoid wouldn't be bad, but without their actual racial features it can often feel like you're actually just playing a human-half with a different skin. While the selection could give some partial features of the race by selecting off a list, my problem with such a list of options within an option is future-proofing. As more content gets released, it's very likely that someone will forget to go back and errata the selection to include those new options within it.
That said, it could be a good solution if it was applied to a heritage feat, having you select which bloodline your aasimar/tiefling origin was from as part of taking the heritage. Unlike ancestries, the variant aasimar/tielfling heritages seemed to be created all at once and not have further additions in later books, helping with the issue of future-proofing. It'd also force the character to decide what type of part-outsider they were instead of aasimar being "some good-aligned outsider" and tiefling being "some evil-aligned outsider."
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One of the big differences between changelings and aasimar/tieflings is that a changeling is always the daughter of a hag and some poor mortal, whereas just occasionally an aasimar or a tiefling will pop up in someone's family tree if there's some outsider blood in there somewhere, right?
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While I like the way HE and HO were treated as heritages, I'm with those that prefer the plane scions to be a stand alone ancestry that's able to take either their outsider or native blood as heritages.
This is what i meant with my example, but maybe using the H.E. heritage muddied the example.
I agree with your example with Tiefling Ancestry; with Oni and Native. With a third, Mixed-Blood Heritage, working like the 'H.E./H.O.' heritages currently for Humans, but under the Tiefling Ancestry and allowed to pick any other Ancestry as it's 'second half'.
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One of the big differences between changelings and aasimar/tieflings is that a changeling is always the daughter of a hag and some poor mortal, whereas just occasionally an aasimar or a tiefling will pop up in someone's family tree if there's some outsider blood in there somewhere, right?
This is correct.
Indeed, per PF1, Aasimar and Tieflings are always less than half Outsider, since there are Half Celestial and Half Fiend templates. They're a quarter Outsider at most, and are most often from families that just have some smaller blood connection to Outsiders than even that.
So all Changelings have a Hag mother. No Aasimar have a Celestial parent at all, and even a Celestial grandparent is rare. The connection is usually more remote.
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I want both an Aasimar/Tiefling template for every race, and a stand-alone Aasimar/Tiefling.
Yeah, I've always liked the idea of elves who have Azata-blood or dwarves with diabolic ancestry. (Or an entire tribe of daemon-blooded orcs or family of demon-blooded dark elves.)
And making them templates means I can go utterly wonky and make naga with lillendi heritage, or whatever.
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Mostly related to this concept, I kinda hope they ditch generic Aasimar/tieflings and make the different varieties the default. Those are the most interesting things to have happened to the planar scions since their invention.
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What do we call a elf+orc?
I kind of want to play an elforc now (sometimes referred to derogatorily as forks).
Perhaps for Aasimars and Tieflings, the available heritages could be based on their outsider ancestry rather than their mortal ancestry, as the variant heritages are handled now in PF1.
The ancestry feats could then include an option to select and count as a particular mortal ancestry.
What about ifrits, oreads, sylphs, sulis and undines, all elemental plane scions, the geniekin? How would you prefer them to be treated?
They also had heritages in PF1E, so, for me, they should also be stand alone ancestries with heritages for each variation and one heritage for for their 'native' blood.
Yes, same for the geniekin.
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What do we call a elf+orc?I kind of want to play an elforc now (sometimes referred to derogatorily as forks).
Google "voldur". They are fan-made but really flavorful. I actually have a PC playing one in my Tyrant's Grasp game.
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One of the big differences between changelings and aasimar/tieflings is that a changeling is always the daughter of a hag and some poor mortal, whereas just occasionally an aasimar or a tiefling will pop up in someone's family tree if there's some outsider blood in there somewhere, right?This is correct.
Indeed, per PF1, Aasimar and Tieflings are always less than half Outsider, since there are Half Celestial and Half Fiend templates. They're a quarter Outsider at most, and are most often from families that just have some smaller blood connection to Outsiders than even that.
So all Changelings have a Hag mother. No Aasimar have a Celestial parent at all, and even a Celestial grandparent is rare. The connection is usually more remote.
Actually, it doesn't even have to be actual couplings with outsiders. It could be your ancestor once made a deal with a devil for something. Now a tiefling shows up in your family tree once every couple generations.
Actually, it doesn't even have to be actual couplings with outsiders. It could be your ancestor once made a deal with a devil for something. Now a tiefling shows up in your family tree once every couple generations.One of the big differences between changelings and aasimar/tieflings is that a changeling is always the daughter of a hag and some poor mortal, whereas just occasionally an aasimar or a tiefling will pop up in someone's family tree if there's some outsider blood in there somewhere, right?This is correct.
Indeed, per PF1, Aasimar and Tieflings are always less than half Outsider, since there are Half Celestial and Half Fiend templates. They're a quarter Outsider at most, and are most often from families that just have some smaller blood connection to Outsiders than even that.
So all Changelings have a Hag mother. No Aasimar have a Celestial parent at all, and even a Celestial grandparent is rare. The connection is usually more remote.
Exactly. Or a celestial blesses you and your lover and the result is an aasimar. Planetouched are invariably, well, touched by a Plane of the Great Beyond, but that seldom absolutely requires sex and procreation. Duskwalkers, for instance, have nothing to do with that.
I still don't know what I'd prefer in the context of mechanics, though. If we make aasimar, tieflings, geniekin and so on their own ancestries, then the HE and HO look like fish out of water. If we make them heritages appliable to any base ancestry, we get more variety and more consistency with how the fluff has always talked about them, but to be really satisfactory we do need many heritages for each type of planetouched (musetouched, lawbringer, pitspawn, hellspawn, motherless...) and feats related to each (in addition to more generic ones, I'd assume).
I think I'd prefer the latter treatment for features that can actually be infused into a multiplicity of base ancestries, and the former for "real species" like grippli, amurrun, kitsune, and so on.
Of course the line becomes a bit blurred sometimes. Are gillfolk a human heritage or a full ancestry? Are Azlanti a human heritage, considering they were given so many benefits compared to other humans in 1e? Are fetchlings a heritage or an ancestry?
I think in the end it depends on what the devs want to do with the base concepts... if a race really must focus on certain stats and get a good amount of special traits, perhaps it's better off as an ancestry. Unless we start having ancestries that change stats and bring more than usual to the table...
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So all Changelings have a Hag mother.
This isn't 100% true. Night hags turn an unborn child into a changeling and they may do so with witches of their coven. As such, a Night-Born Changeling may have no actual hag blood and could be 100% pure blooded something else. So a 1/2 elf witch with a 1/2 orc partner could have a Night-Born Changeling with no hag in the bloodline.
EDIT: info is found in blood of the coven, pg# 4 and #8.
"On rare occasions, a night hag has need of a true daughter, and can warp the daughter of one of her pregnant coven-mates with the aid of ancient magic."
"As creatures with the outsider type, night hags can’t supplement their numbers by bearing children of their own, and instead must perform foul rites over another hag’s or witch’s unborn child to corrupt it into a moon may."
I figure this makes Waker May Changelings into double-changelings, since those happen when a Night Hag works the same ritual on a pregnant hag, and puts her own soul into the child.
But we should probably handle the Changelings for which an outsider and a ritual is not involved first, and consider the other two as exceptions.
I figure this makes Waker May Changelings into double-changelings, since those happen when a Night Hag works the same ritual on a pregnant hag, and puts her own soul into the child.
But we should probably handle the Changelings for which an outsider and a ritual is not involved first, and consider the other two as exceptions.
The intent was just pointing out that there WAS an exception...
For myself I think I'd put changelings into the more permissive category because it includes outsiders under its progenitors, their ability to change shapes through magic and their propensity for swapping babies means that just about any race, or combination of races, could have a changeling child.
"NON-HUMAN CHANGELINGS:
Representative of primal and wild forces, hags are supernaturally fertile and capable of bearing the children of almost any humanoid or monstrous humanoid, although they usually select human mates." In fact the example given is a centaur hag. ;)
I feel like one big difference between changelings and, like aasimar, is that a changeling is pretty much always raised by people unlike herself, who eventually figure out she is something different. Golarion has whole communities of aasimar, there are tiefling gangs in Cheliax, etc.
So a changeling pretty much needs to be able to poach ancestry feats from whatever culture raised her, whereas an aasimar need not necessarily.
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I feel like one big difference between changelings and, like aasimar, is that a changeling is pretty much always raised by people unlike herself, who eventually figure out she is something different. Golarion has whole communities of aasimar, there are tiefling gangs in Cheliax, etc.
So a changeling pretty much needs to be able to poach ancestry feats from whatever culture raised her, whereas an aasimar need not necessarily.
But then that leaves every single aasimar that ISN'T from one of those communities out in the wind doesn't it? If I have an aasimar spontaneously born in Cheliax that's never seen another aasimar, it's fine if they can't poach any Cheliax culture ancestry feats just because they didn't have the good sense to be born into a community of their own race?
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I (personally) think an eloquent way to solve this is as such
- Have a Planar Scion heritage that's universal, so that any race may pick it
- Have a special 1st level ancestry feat that specifies what type of Planar Scion you are, and it forces you to take a given boost type to fit with what it is
- Have higher level Ancestry feats that give you more specialized bonuses/effects in line with what you are.
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But then that leaves every single aasimar that ISN'T from one of those communities out in the wind doesn't it? If I have an aasimar spontaneously born in Cheliax that's never seen another aasimar, it's fine if they can't poach any Cheliax culture ancestry feats just because they didn't have the good sense to be born into a community of their own race?I feel like one big difference between changelings and, like aasimar, is that a changeling is pretty much always raised by people unlike herself, who eventually figure out she is something different. Golarion has whole communities of aasimar, there are tiefling gangs in Cheliax, etc.
So a changeling pretty much needs to be able to poach ancestry feats from whatever culture raised her, whereas an aasimar need not necessarily.
You could make that same argument for a dwarf born in Cheliax, though.
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I (personally) think an eloquent way to solve this is as suchWhat do you think of this solution? It's modular, it's universal, and it's hyper specific all at the same time. As for hangs and changelings, it sounds weird, because I'm used to Ebberon "changelings" which are essentially Skrull without the increased muscle mass, so the term changeling means something else to me, so I'm getting a bit lost there >.<
- Have a Planar Scion heritage that's universal, so that any race may pick it
- Have a special 1st level ancestry feat that specifies what type of Planar Scion you are, and it forces you to take a given boost type to fit with what it is
- Have higher level Ancestry feats that give you more specialized bonuses/effects in line with what you are.
A friend and i were coming to this very conclusion when discussing it yesterday. Personally i like the idea of Tiefling(and others) being an Ancestry; but i have to admit, the idea of Universal Heritages is just as intriguing. I would see an outcome like this just as much of a win as the Ancestry idea; with Ancestry feats that bring out the uniqueness of the race similar to how H.E. and H.O. have their own unique set of feats.
You could make that same argument for a dwarf born in Cheliax, though.But then that leaves every single aasimar that ISN'T from one of those communities out in the wind doesn't it? If I have an aasimar spontaneously born in Cheliax that's never seen another aasimar, it's fine if they can't poach any Cheliax culture ancestry feats just because they didn't have the good sense to be born into a community of their own race?I feel like one big difference between changelings and, like aasimar, is that a changeling is pretty much always raised by people unlike herself, who eventually figure out she is something different. Golarion has whole communities of aasimar, there are tiefling gangs in Cheliax, etc.
So a changeling pretty much needs to be able to poach ancestry feats from whatever culture raised her, whereas an aasimar need not necessarily.
This comment should really be directed at PossibleCabbage. He was making the distinction that "a changeling pretty much needs to be able to poach ancestry feats from whatever culture raised her" and I was, in effect, asking if that's the case why an aasimar doesn't also have that need. Do you wish to add your dwarf to that question too? ;)
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In the playtest we had the adopted ancestry feat for the general case of "raised in a culture not your own" but this sort of had the original half orc/elf problem where you are paying a tax on feats in order to play the character you wanted.
So I wonder if that feat shouldn't be better, or if a better version should be available to people for whom that is usually the case.
In the playtest we had the adopted ancestry feat for the general case of "raised in a culture not your own" but this sort of had the original half orc/elf problem where you are paying a tax on feats in order to play the character you wanted.
So I wonder if that feat shouldn't be better, or if a better version should be available to people for whom that is usually the case.
That could work but I wonder if it couldn't be fixed by divorcing 'race' from heritage. What I mean by this is instead of a dwarf getting dwarf heritage by default instead have them pick a heritage that best fits their background instead. So if you have a dwarf raised by 1/2 orcs in Cheliax, you pick dwarf, 1/2 orc or Cheliax [assuming it a heritage/culture] whichever you feel is your strongest influence. So it your dwarf takes pains to relearn his dwarf roots than take dwarf. Or if you immerse yourself into the ins and outs of Cheliax politics then take that or maybe you have an interest in orc fighting techniques so you pick [1/2] orc so you can figure out orc weapons.
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That could work but I wonder if it couldn't be fixed by divorcing 'race' from heritage. What I mean by this is instead of a dwarf getting dwarf heritage by default instead have them pick a heritage that best fits their background instead. So if you have a dwarf raised by 1/2 orcs in Cheliax, you pick dwarf, 1/2 orc or Cheliax [assuming it a heritage/culture] whichever you feel is your strongest influence. So it your dwarf takes pains to relearn his dwarf roots than take dwarf. Or if you immerse yourself into the ins and outs of Cheliax politics then take that or maybe you have an interest in orc fighting techniques so you pick [1/2] orc so you can figure out orc weapons.In the playtest we had the adopted ancestry feat for the general case of "raised in a culture not your own" but this sort of had the original half orc/elf problem where you are paying a tax on feats in order to play the character you wanted.
So I wonder if that feat shouldn't be better, or if a better version should be available to people for whom that is usually the case.
That's one of the new design spaces the new name gave them that they said they wanted to explore. That will probably start appearing in some World Guide.
After reading more of this thread, I'm starting to like the idea of Aasimar/Tiefling as their own ancestry, since they already have a diverse set of heritages that are difficult to express otherwise. That said, I still think I'd prefer them being an open heritage that any ancestry could select, with different bloodlines either being separate heritages or something similar to dedication feats within the heritage (once you pick an ancestry feat specific to a bloodline, you're locked out of ones from other bloodlines).
Of course, there is always the option to do both in a way, allowing players to either start with the ancestry as a base or apply it as a heritage to another ancestry (kinda like current multiclassing).
Additionally, I'm also starting to think that having half-elves & half-orcs as heritages is a bit backwards. What we really need is a half-human heritage that can be selected by any ancestry. After all, "sleeps with everything" is supposed to be the specialty of humans, so why not use heritage as a way to express that?
What do you of a heritage feature similar to what was done for changelings with paternal heritage in Book of heroic races: advanced compendium including one for human heritage but for planetouched for nonplanetouched heritageVery late with this reply, but do you mean to allow aasimar/tiefling to select their parent humanoid race to count as?
Selecting a parent humanoid wouldn't be bad, but without their actual racial features it can often feel like you're actually just playing a human-half with a different skin. While the selection could give some partial features of the race by selecting off a list, my problem with such a list of options within an option is future-proofing. As more content gets released, it's very likely that someone will forget to go back and errata the selection to include those new options within it.
That said, it could be a good solution if it was applied to a heritage feat, having you select which bloodline...
I meant something along the lines of this
Paternal Heritage: The influence of the changeling’s father is particularly strong. The changeling counts as her father’s race for any effect related to race and inherits one of the following racial traits according to her father’s race. This racial trait replaces hag racial trait. [JBE:BoHR:AC]
Aasimar: The changeling gains resistance 5 to acid, cold, or electricity, chosen at character creation.
Catfolk: The changeling gains a 10-foot racial bonus to her speed when using the charge, run, or withdraw actions.
Dhampir: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against disease and poison.
Drow: The changeling possesses spell resistance equal to 4 plus her class level.
Dueregar: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against paralysis, phantasms, and poison.
Dwarf: The changeling’s speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance. This counts as the slow and steady racial trait.
Elan: The changeling requires only half as much food and water to sustain herself as a normal Medium creature, and can go for 2 days plus a number of hours equal to double her Constitution score before making Constitution checks for starvation or thirst.
Elf: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
Fetchling: Attacks against the changeling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it only increases the miss chance.
Fosterling: Rolls to confirm critical hits against the changeling suffer a –4 penalty.
Gillmen: The changeling gains the aquatic subtype with a swim speed of 10 feet, but can breathe both water and air.
Goblin: The changeling gains a +4 racial bonus on Ride and Stealth checks.
Gnome: The changeling gains a +2 racial saving throw bonus against illusion spells and effects.
Grippli: The changeling is always considered to have a running start when making Acrobatics checks to jump.
Halfling: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against fear effects.
Hobgoblin: The changeling gains a +4 racial bonus on Stealth checks.
Ifrit: The changeling gains fire resistance 5.
Kitsune: The changeling has a bite attack that deals 1d4 points of damage.
Kobold/Umbral Kobold: The changeling has a +1 natural armor bonus from her scaly flesh. If the changeling has a natural armor bonus from another source, then the two abilities stack.
Lizardfolk: The changeling has a +1 natural armor bonus from her scaly flesh. If the changeling has a natural armor bonus from another source, then the two abilities stack.
Melodian: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on one type of Perform (chosen at character creation), and Perform is always a class skill for her.
Merfolk: The changeling gains the aquatic subtype with a swim speed of 10 feet, but can breathe both water and air.
Nagaji: The changeling has a +1 natural armor bonus from her scaly flesh. If the changeling has a natural armor bonus from another source, then the two abilities stack.
Orc: The changeling can remain conscious and continue fighting even if her hit point totals fall below 0. The changeling is still staggered at 0 hit points or lower and loses 1 hit point each round as normal. This counts as the ferocity racial trait.
Oread: The changeling gains acid resistance 5.
Ratfolk: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on Perception, and Use Magic Device checks.
Reaper: Once per day, when the changeling would die from hit point damage she does not die until the end of her next turn. If the changeling receives enough healing by then that her hit points are at an amount greater than her negative Constitution score, she becomes stable and does not die.
Samsaran: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on saving throws made to resist death effects and on Constitution checks made to stabilize if reduced to negative hit points.
Sashahar: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against psionic powers and psi-like abilities.
Strix: The changeling possesses a pair of vestigial wings that she can use to fall and glide at a safe pace. She can fall safely from any height without taking falling damage but must move 5 feet laterally for every 20 feet she falls.
Suli: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Sense Motive checks.
Svirfneblin: The changeling adds +1 to the DC of any illusion spells she casts.
Sylph: The changeling gains electricity resistance 5.
Tengu: The changeling has a bite attack that deals 1d3 points of damage.
Tiefling: The changeling has resist 5 to cold, electricity, or fire chosen at character creation.
Undine: The changeling gains cold resistance 5.
Ursine: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against polymorph spells or effects, diseases, and ingested or inhaled poisons (but not magical diseases or poisons).
Vanara: The changeling has a long, flexible tail that she can use to carry objects. She cannot wield weapons with her tail, but the tail allows her to retrieve a small, stowed object carried on her person as a swift action.
Vishkanya: The changeling gains a racial bonus on saving throws against poison equal to half her class level (minimum 1).
Wayang: Once per day as an immediate action, a changeling can treat positive and negative energy effects as if she were an undead creature, taking damage from positive energy and healing damage from negative energy. This ability lasts for 1 round.
Wyvaran: The changeling gains a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against paralysis and sleep effects
I've always thought of it that planetouched we're more akin to their mortal parentage than a changeling who for most part has a hag mother biologically but planetouched are born to mortal parents I was thought of planetouched more like a child with some kind of affliction due to the parents coming in contact with something during the pregnancy then born of an outsider and a mortal I felt they had more claim to their mortal parentage that a changeling might
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See, my biggest issue with that is when Aasimar/Tiefling/Planetouched get printed, they'd have a list of the currently existing ancestries to choose parentage from. Later on, when more ancestries got printed, it is highly likely that they'll forget/neglect to go backwards and errata those options back into the planetouched parental options with appropriate bonuses like the others.
I know in the playtest surveys they brought up ideas like having Centaurs, Minotaurs, or Pixies being added as ancestries. Personally, I think it'd be awesome to play as a Tiefling Minotaur, Aasimar Centaur, or a Sylph Pixie, but if those races got printed after planetouched then it'd be unlikely to be possible if planetouched already used an established list to pick parentage from.
This is also part of the reason I highly support the idea of various planetouched being an open heritage capable of being selected by any ancestry. Even if something like Centaurs get printed long afterward, they'd still be able to seamlessly select the open planetouched heritage without relying on publishers to remember that planetouched exist and specifically creating new options for every planetouched related to the new ancestry in order to make such combinations possible.
Also, specifically for the way BoHR handled Changelings there... While I certainly like the intent, the bonuses given by several of the races on that list are very inadequate to actually feel like a member of that race. For example, Kitsune parentage completely lacks change shape or anything related to foxes, none of the small races make the Changeling small or adjust land speed, etc. I'd personally hate it if planetouched ended up with similar issues as a result of using this type of option in order to connect with their parental heritage.
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Here's how I would deal with this conundrum.
Aasimar, Tiefling, Ganzi, Aphorite, Duskwalker, Ifrit, Undine, Oread, and Sylph (and others that I am sure there are but I can't remember them all off the top of my head) should all be heritages. They should all be special unique heritages that can be applied to any ancestry, so you can have an Elf-Ganzi, a Human Aasimar, or whatever.
Yes, this means that you can't have Half-Elf Tieflings technically, unless later on a feat is allowed that let's you take from multiple heritages at once, but I don't think that's a huge problem. Even if they don't have a feat like that, it wouldn't be that outlandish to play an Elf or Orc (when Or eventually comes) and play it as a Half Elf or Half-Orc.
As for the Various sub-types of Tiefling and Aasimar, I honestly think this has an extremely easy fix. Since Ancestry feats are a guaranteed part of your leveling progress now, you have various Heritage feat train sets associated with each subtype.
I don't remember the specific levels that you get Ancestry feats, but let's say that there's a feat at level 4, 8, 12, and 16 (just for the sake of demonstration).
You would have various Ancestry feats that are only available to the specific planetouched heritages that represent the Musetouched and the like. At level 4 you could take the Ancestry feat Musetouched and at level 8 you could take Greater Musetouched. Maybe even a level 12/16 final one called True Musetouched or Awakened Musetouched or something. These could replicate the abilities that the PF1 Musetouched had or they could be more creative with them, since the PF1 Aasimar and Tiefling subraces only had very slight changes.
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In PH 1 we had templates for half celestial, half fiend, and half Jinn which could be treated as a missing link in a planetouched's bloodline for those who chose Direct lineage to their Outsiders bloodline this covered tieflings, aasimars, and geniekin; other planetouched such as duskwalkers, aphorites, and ganzi specifically do not possess this option due to their Origins, however I only remember half efreet, half DJinn, and half janni options I may have overlooked the other two but how may PH2 introduce these half Outsiders as possible ancestors for the big three planetouched, if this should be done, and if so how, if not why
I have started a new thread for this question specifically
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42kbe?Pathfinder-2nd-edition-half-Outsiders
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Yes, this means that you can't have Half-Elf Tieflings technically, unless later on a feat is allowed that let's you take from multiple heritages at once, but I don't think that's a huge problem. Even if they don't have a feat like that, it wouldn't be that outlandish to play an Elf or Orc (when Or eventually comes) and play it as a Half Elf or Half-Orc.
We can solve this with the magic of Tagged feats. Aasimar, Tieflings, etc can have archetyped heritages, and the specific feat can have the tag "Scion." "Scion" feats can have the following rule: "You may select a Scion feat as your first level Ancestry feat, or in the place of your heritage." Give every scion feat an additional couple of abilities that you only get if you selected it as your heritage instead of ancestry feat. In the case of Assimar, all Aasimars might get the spell "Daylight" or whatever, and those that selected it as their heritage ALSO get Resistance Cold 5. A Skinwalker might get Trained in Survival, Speak with Animals, and vulnerability to silver 1, If they picked it as their heritage, they also get the Change Shape ability.
They'll need to see how the various core races shake out first before they start doing this, but I think they can find a balancing point.
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Multiclass Archetypes but for Ancestries. I like it.I want both an Aasimar/Tiefling template for every race, and a stand-alone Aasimar/Tiefling.
I've frequently wanted to play a heaven or hell touched version of many different races, and I've also wanted to play characters that really lean into the planar ancestry.
Seems to me there should be no reason why they can't have both. In the case of the template it's like flavoring for the base race, for the stand alone ancestry the base race is an after-thought.
I think this is actually what was behind the initial playtest concept for Half-orc and Half-elf : Human multi-ancestring with Orc and Elf respectively.
I fear though that this attempt has been killed during the playtest, so I am not sure that Planetouched will be able to use it. I regret that because I think it was the most elegant solution : simple and allowing for huge diversity in implementation.
Here's hoping for Ancestries Unchained.
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Yesterday at PaizoCon "Moving from the Playtest" event, one of our friends actually asked how should we expect the Plane Scions to be covered, and we got our answers.
Plane Scions are PROBABLY going to be covered as "Everyone Can Take" heritages.
I think it was Mark who answered it. So there we have it, our answer to this thread, for now... How do you folks feel about it?
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I'll miss the specific tiefling lineages, but I think it's made up for by having the other side matter mechanically. I like that you can tie ancestries more closely to their cultural connections with outsiders. Gnolls are pretty big fans of Lamashtu, so you can have a tiefling heritage representing demonic parentage. Kobolds often hold Asmodeus in high regard, so you could have a tiefling heritage to throw in a little infernal influence.
That said, we got the planar sub-races a while after the initial planar races. I wouldn't be surprised to get the planar heritages in their generic forms, and then down the road get first-level ancestry feats for specific options. A rakshasa feat for mind-reading or disguise, etc.
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Yesterday at PaizoCon "Moving from the Playtest" event, one of our friends actually asked how should we expect the Plane Scions to be covered, and we got our answers.
Plane Scions are PROBABLY going to be covered as "Everyone Can Take" heritages.
I think it was Mark who answered it. So there we have it, our answer to this thread, for now... How do you folks feel about it?
I'm just happy that they made the cut and "Everyone Can Take" heritages are a sweet bonus. Thank you for updating us
Heritages then? Works for me.
I'm just happy that they made the cut and "Everyone Can Take" heritages are a sweet bonus. Thank you for updating usYesterday at PaizoCon "Moving from the Playtest" event, one of our friends actually asked how should we expect the Plane Scions to be covered, and we got our answers.
Plane Scions are PROBABLY going to be covered as "Everyone Can Take" heritages.
I think it was Mark who answered it. So there we have it, our answer to this thread, for now... How do you folks feel about it?
“Probably” doesn’t sound they made the cut for day one releases to me!
I mean, they were always going to do something for them; Tieflings and aasimar are way too popular to leave out. It’s just a question of when - this answered some of the how.
He didn't say day one and as long as they are on paizo's mind I'm good
I went on twitter and watched the Q&A because of his updateWould have watched it anyway but now I had a purpose
I personallt hope only humans give rise to planetouched. Be they Aasimar, ifrit or other. I like that humans have this crossbreed ability with pretty much most sentient beings.
I personallt hope only humans give rise to planetouched. Be they Aasimar, ifrit or other. I like that humans have this crossbreed ability with pretty much most sentient beings.
Golarion Lore has it that planetouched have always been able to be born among any ancestry, but if you want to emphasize humans' ability to cross-breed with anything you can simply make it so, whatever setting you're using. It's your game!
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I personallt hope only humans give rise to planetouched. Be they Aasimar, ifrit or other. I like that humans have this crossbreed ability with pretty much most sentient beings.Golarion Lore has it that planetouched have always been able to be born among any ancestry, but if you want to emphasize humans' ability to cross-breed with anything you can simply make it so, whatever setting you're using. It's your game!
I kind of figured the ability to crossbreed with literally everything was really the shtick of Outsiders and dragons (dragons in particular aren't picky with some of the weird half-dragons floating around). Humans mostly can just breed with elves and orcs (which makes it weird that in Golarion, aparently Orcs and elves aren't compatible with each other, which also opens up weird questions like can a half-orc and an elf breed? Or a half-elf and full orc? Or half-elf and half-orc? Can elves have orcs in their bloodline, and vise versa, but only with a few part human ancestors in there to bridge the gap? Are humans the missing link between elf and orc?) Most of the other part-humans I've seen are things like the plane-touched, and can manifest with any ancestry.
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I kind of figured the ability to crossbreed with literally everything was really the shtick of Outsiders and dragons (dragons in particular aren't picky with some of the weird half-dragons floating around).
Dragons are notorious in the whole Great Beyond for being horny beasts who like doing the nasty.
Humans mostly can just breed with elves and orcs (which makes it weird that in Golarion, aparently Orcs and elves aren't compatible with each other, which also opens up weird questions like can a half-orc and an elf breed? Or a half-elf and full orc? Or half-elf and half-orc? Can elves have orcs in their bloodline, and vise versa, but only with a few part human ancestors in there to bridge the gap? Are humans the missing link between elf and orc?)
That way lies madness, Herr Doktor. You shouldn't treat an arbitrary conceit spawned by half-remembered bits of fantasy literature in a decade famous for its abundant use of drugs and pretend it makes sense in a very real, scientific, genetic kind of way.
But actually it's interesting. I'd say, as long as it doesn't become ridiculous at your table it works. At mine, the half-orc and the elf couldn't breed, nor the half-elf and the orc, but the half-elf and the half-orc could and would bear either a half-elf or an half-orc, so half-elves can have orcish ancestors, for sure.
And actually, really interesting: are humans the missing link? In a sense. We're certainly a middle ground between the 2 ancestries. As for the official setting, maybe not even JJ knows...
... OR DOES HE? (Dum dum dum!!)