nondetection stoping items that grant see invisibility?


Rules Questions


since nondetection stops divination without first trying a CL check and see invisibility is a divination spell, how would that effect an item that allows see invisibility? the item make the check, or the user of the item?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You would use the caster level of the item in question. Most items that duplicate the effect of a spell will explicitly state the caster level they're duplicating it at. If the caster level is not specified by the item then you should typically presume the minimum caster level that spell is normally available at (3 in the case of see invisibility).


Nondetection wrote:
If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item...

See invisibility doesn't meet this criteria in my opinion. It is a passive spell that targets the caster, and not a detection spell that targets the warded creature.


Melkiador wrote:
Nondetection wrote:
If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item...
See invisibility doesn't meet this criteria in my opinion. It is a passive spell that targets the caster, and not a detection spell that targets the warded creature.

non-detection explicitly states it wards someone from detection. what else is see invisibility but a detection divination spell?


kinderschlager wrote:
Melkiador wrote:
Nondetection wrote:
If a divination is attempted against the warded creature or item...
See invisibility doesn't meet this criteria in my opinion. It is a passive spell that targets the caster, and not a detection spell that targets the warded creature.
non-detection explicitly states it wards someone from detection. what else is see invisibility but a detection divination spell?

First, no where is see invisibility described as a "detect" spell. That would be a spell like detect evil or detect magic. Second, nondetection is explicit in that it only works against divination used "against" the warded creature, and see invisibility doesn't function that way.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I would have to disagree with you, Melkiador. The Clairvoyance spell also fails to directly target the creature, instead creating a sensor through which the caster can see, and non-detection explicitly blocks it just fine. So the mere fact that the creature under the effect of non-detection isn't explicitly the target of the divination effect is irrelevant.


Dasrak wrote:
I would have to disagree with you, Melkiador. The Clairvoyance spell also fails to directly target the creature, instead creating a sensor through which the caster can see, and non-detection explicitly blocks it just fine. So the mere fact that the creature under the effect of non-detection isn't explicitly the target of the divination effect is irrelevant.

Or that's just a specific exclusion to the general rule presented in the spell's text. Clairvoyance is still a ranged spell that effects an area, while see invisibility is a personal spell. It's pretty different.


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Mind Blank wrote:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that gather information about the target through divination magic (such as detect evil, locate creature, scry, and see invisible).

That indicates to me that the passive/active distinction that's been made is not a real one.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Melkiador wrote:
Clairvoyance is still a ranged spell that effects an area

No, it isn't. It's a spell that creates a sensor at a single point somewhere within its range. The range of the spell affects how far you can place the sensor, not how far the sensor can see (which would use normal perception rules). Clairvoyance does not affect an area any more than See Invisibility does.

Nor is clairvoyance a specific call out; the Nondetection spell lists it as an example of the kinds of divination spells it can block. The way this is phrased the list is not exhaustive but instead instructive. See Invisibility is broadly similar to Clairvoyance in this respect. Both offer enhancements on the caster's senses to allow him to perceive things he would not normally be able to. Given the broad language in nondetection, it should be covered.


At best, you can say there may have been intent for the spell to work on non-aggressive divination spells. But I don't think the actual rules text we were given bares that out. It'd be far from the first time that a spell's flavor text says one thing, while its rules text does another.


Detect evil works the same way. You cast it on yourself, and scan the area in front of you.

It is no different from See Invisible in that regard. Trying to claim otherwise is a stretch.

Both are affected by non-detection.


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Nondetection blocks any divination magic that gathers information about the person (and gear on the person) it is protecting. This includes spells that that cover an area as well as those that specifically target the protected character.

The provided list is open-ended, not comprehensive. It provides examples, not specifics.


follow up question since it appears i was correct in my assessment. the save described in the spells description is the only save allowed, yes? if someone or their items fails the save, they dont get to try again against that instance of non-detection?


Not sure save would be the term you want to use. Both spells do allow saves however both Nondetection and Invisibility also indicate 'harmless' and are generally only used on willing subjects (or objects). I presume what you are inquiring about is the opposed caster level check. I would only potentially allow another set of checks if somehow the caster levels changed during the course of the spell(s) and ideally I'd simply recalculate the success/fail based off the new CLs using the original dice rolls (using new rolls if the original rolls could not be recalled). That is if something caused the CL to increase by +2 (possession of an item, for example) and the original roll was a modified 15 it would now be a 17 when comparing it the other casters original roll. And just because the See Invisibility didn't work doesn't mean the character(s) couldn't become aware there is an invisible creature in the area and do something else to reveal them (i.e. cast Invisibility Purge or target an area with Glitterdust).

Note that Nondetection works equally well against True Seeing which is also a divination.


yeah i meant the CL check it allows

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