paizo.com Recent Posts in How does PF 2E handle the power of high level casterspaizo.com Recent Posts in How does PF 2E handle the power of high level casters2019-04-16T10:40:18Z2019-04-16T10:40:18ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersFumarolehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#962019-04-27T14:12:02Z2019-04-27T14:10:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Malk_Content wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">ChibiNyan wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">QuidEst wrote:</div><blockquote><p> "When I say jump, you roll how high!"</p>
<p>GMs who know the rules will be able to say, "You crit succeed and jump an amazing seven feet towards the moon." </blockquote><p>This works for the skills that have clear consistent methods to determine what a given result represents uch as jumping. But keep in mind most skills actually LOST this from PF1. For example, we don't know the specifics of how Climbing DCs are calculated.
<p>For a silly example, the DC to see what's happening in Castrovel from Golarion could be a "level 500 task" with DC800 or something. Anything the PCs can roll would be a Critical Failure normally. In one of the cases, a nat20 would convert it to a regular failure, in the other it'd technically make it a success. Silly example that probably will never come up, but as others said "one less rule to memorize": that ridiculous tasks are impossible even though the core mechanic technically allows a success. </blockquote>That actually made me wonder about something. There is precedent for "ability that turns Critical Failures into just Failures." If I have that for say Perception, roll a 20 does my Crit Fail go to Fail from Feat and then Success from 20 or does it work the other way round? </blockquote><p>I asked <b><a href="https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j0c?Saving-Throw-result-bumps-stack#1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">a question</a></b> in the same vein a while back. I ruled similar effects wouldn't stack but it seems like it could be a table variation thing if it doesn't end up codified in the rules.Malk_Content wrote:ChibiNyan wrote: QuidEst wrote:"When I say jump, you roll how high!"
GMs who know the rules will be able to say, "You crit succeed and jump an amazing seven feet towards the moon."
This works for the skills that have clear consistent methods to determine what a given result represents uch as jumping. But keep in mind most skills actually LOST this from PF1. For example, we don't know the specifics of how Climbing DCs are calculated. For a silly example, the DC to see...Fumarole2019-04-27T14:10:50ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersMalk_Contenthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#952019-04-27T01:15:09Z2019-04-26T21:31:45Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">ChibiNyan wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">QuidEst wrote:</div><blockquote><p> "When I say jump, you roll how high!"</p>
<p>GMs who know the rules will be able to say, "You crit succeed and jump an amazing seven feet towards the moon." </blockquote><p>This works for the skills that have clear consistent methods to determine what a given result represents uch as jumping. But keep in mind most skills actually LOST this from PF1. For example, we don't know the specifics of how Climbing DCs are calculated.
<p>For a silly example, the DC to see what's happening in Castrovel from Golarion could be a "level 500 task" with DC800 or something. Anything the PCs can roll would be a Critical Failure normally. In one of the cases, a nat20 would convert it to a regular failure, in the other it'd technically make it a success. Silly example that probably will never come up, but as others said "one less rule to memorize": that ridiculous tasks are impossible even though the core mechanic technically allows a success. </blockquote><p>That actually made me wonder about something. There is precedent for "ability that turns Critical Failures into just Failures." If I have that for say Perception, roll a 20 does my Crit Fail go to Fail from Feat and then Success from 20 or does it work the other way round?ChibiNyan wrote:QuidEst wrote:"When I say jump, you roll how high!"
GMs who know the rules will be able to say, "You crit succeed and jump an amazing seven feet towards the moon."
This works for the skills that have clear consistent methods to determine what a given result represents uch as jumping. But keep in mind most skills actually LOST this from PF1. For example, we don't know the specifics of how Climbing DCs are calculated. For a silly example, the DC to see what's happening in...Malk_Content2019-04-26T21:31:45ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersChibiNyanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#942019-04-27T05:19:44Z2019-04-26T21:18:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">QuidEst wrote:</div><blockquote><p> "When I say jump, you roll how high!"</p>
<p>GMs who know the rules will be able to say, "You crit succeed and jump an amazing seven feet towards the moon." </blockquote><p>This works for the skills that have clear consistent methods to determine what a given result represents uch as jumping. But keep in mind most skills actually LOST this from PF1. For example, we don't know the specifics of how Climbing DCs are calculated.
<p>For a silly example, the DC to see what's happening in Castrovel from Golarion could be a "level 500 task" with DC800 or something. Anything the PCs can roll would be a Critical Failure normally. In one of the cases, a nat20 would convert it to a regular failure, in the other it'd technically make it a success. Silly example that probably will never come up, but as others said "one less rule to memorize": that ridiculous tasks are impossible even though the core mechanic technically allows a success.</p>QuidEst wrote:"When I say jump, you roll how high!"
GMs who know the rules will be able to say, "You crit succeed and jump an amazing seven feet towards the moon."
This works for the skills that have clear consistent methods to determine what a given result represents uch as jumping. But keep in mind most skills actually LOST this from PF1. For example, we don't know the specifics of how Climbing DCs are calculated. For a silly example, the DC to see what's happening in Castrovel from...ChibiNyan2019-04-26T21:18:24ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersQuidEsthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#932019-04-28T20:08:35Z2019-04-26T12:17:40Z<p>"When I say jump, you roll how high!"</p>
<p>GMs who know the rules will be able to say, "You crit succeed and jump an amazing seven feet towards the moon."</p>"When I say jump, you roll how high!"
GMs who know the rules will be able to say, "You crit succeed and jump an amazing seven feet towards the moon."QuidEst2019-04-26T12:17:40ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersEdiwirhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#922019-04-28T06:29:15Z2019-04-26T11:56:53Z<p>That’s not entirely wrong.
<br />
If something just doesn’t work that way, you don’t need a “warning: this doesn’t work” label.</p>
<p>Plus people ignore warning labels all the time.</p>That’s not entirely wrong.
If something just doesn’t work that way, you don’t need a “warning: this doesn’t work” label.
Plus people ignore warning labels all the time.Ediwir2019-04-26T11:56:53ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level casterswraithstrike (alias of concerro)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#912019-04-26T11:43:15Z2019-04-26T11:43:15Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Helmic wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Captain Morgan wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Yeah, changing it to a 1 is one degree worse and a 20 is one degree better does nip the jumping to the moon problem in the bud. I mean, the playtest told you not to bother rolling in those situations anyway, but it is better to have it codified for folks that missed or ignored rhay
</p>
</blockquote><p>It also helps when the GM just didn't realize it was a "jump to the moon" situation to begin with or allowed a persistent player to roll to move things along quicker than explaining the philosophy behind disallowing rolls for "jump to the moon" stuff.
<p>I'd also like to take a moment to point out Norman's <i>The Design of Everyday Things</i> applies to rules as well, and rules that require you to place a sign that says "you cannot roll to jump to the moon" are going to be inferior to rules whose design inherently implies that. It's just natural, you can read how crits work and understand that some actions are just literally impossible even if you didn't read or remember the section on jumping to the moon. </blockquote><p>Just to make sure I'm not misreading your comment, are you saying that implying something is somehow a better form of communication than outright saying it when it comes to the rules?Helmic wrote:Captain Morgan wrote:Yeah, changing it to a 1 is one degree worse and a 20 is one degree better does nip the jumping to the moon problem in the bud. I mean, the playtest told you not to bother rolling in those situations anyway, but it is better to have it codified for folks that missed or ignored rhay
It also helps when the GM just didn't realize it was a "jump to the moon" situation to begin with or allowed a persistent player to roll to move things along quicker than...wraithstrike (alias of concerro)2019-04-26T11:43:15ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersHelmichttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#902019-04-26T16:36:47Z2019-04-25T21:21:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Captain Morgan wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Yeah, changing it to a 1 is one degree worse and a 20 is one degree better does nip the jumping to the moon problem in the bud. I mean, the playtest told you not to bother rolling in those situations anyway, but it is better to have it codified for folks that missed or ignored rhay
</p>
</blockquote><p>It also helps when the GM just didn't realize it was a "jump to the moon" situation to begin with or allowed a persistent player to roll to move things along quicker than explaining the philosophy behind disallowing rolls for "jump to the moon" stuff.
<p>I'd also like to take a moment to point out Norman's <i>The Design of Everyday Things</i> applies to rules as well, and rules that require you to place a sign that says "you cannot roll to jump to the moon" are going to be inferior to rules whose design inherently implies that. It's just natural, you can read how crits work and understand that some actions are just literally impossible even if you didn't read or remember the section on jumping to the moon.</p>Captain Morgan wrote:Yeah, changing it to a 1 is one degree worse and a 20 is one degree better does nip the jumping to the moon problem in the bud. I mean, the playtest told you not to bother rolling in those situations anyway, but it is better to have it codified for folks that missed or ignored rhay
It also helps when the GM just didn't realize it was a "jump to the moon" situation to begin with or allowed a persistent player to roll to move things along quicker than explaining the...Helmic2019-04-25T21:21:03ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersCaptain Morganhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#892019-04-25T21:24:07Z2019-04-24T01:10:25Z<p>Yeah, changing it to a 1 is one degree worse and a 20 is one degree better does nip the jumping to the moon problem in the bud. I mean, the playtest told you not to bother rolling in those situations anyway, but it is better to have it codified for folks that missed or ignored rhay</p>Yeah, changing it to a 1 is one degree worse and a 20 is one degree better does nip the jumping to the moon problem in the bud. I mean, the playtest told you not to bother rolling in those situations anyway, but it is better to have it codified for folks that missed or ignored rhayCaptain Morgan2019-04-24T01:10:25ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersNielsenEhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#882019-04-24T00:35:00Z2019-04-24T00:35:00Z<p>Ah yes, like I wrote upstream, if a natural 1 (without special rules) is a crit success, or a 20 a crit fail, you shouldn't be rolling dice at all. Its the "what's the DC to jump to the moon, oh doesn't matter I rolled a 20" thing again.</p>Ah yes, like I wrote upstream, if a natural 1 (without special rules) is a crit success, or a 20 a crit fail, you shouldn't be rolling dice at all. Its the "what's the DC to jump to the moon, oh doesn't matter I rolled a 20" thing again.NielsenE2019-04-24T00:35:00ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersMark Seifterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#872019-04-24T17:36:08Z2019-04-24T00:23:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">NielsenE wrote:</div><blockquote> In PF2 they'd still hit 500 times, right? just no crits. </blockquote><p>In Cyouni's proposal they wouldn't hit at all, which is kind of better, though again, not that this is a real gameplay situation we should design around. Armies are not best run using normal encounter mode.NielsenE wrote:In PF2 they'd still hit 500 times, right? just no crits.
In Cyouni's proposal they wouldn't hit at all, which is kind of better, though again, not that this is a real gameplay situation we should design around. Armies are not best run using normal encounter mode.Mark Seifter2019-04-24T00:23:24ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersNielsenEhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#862019-04-24T00:05:12Z2019-04-24T00:05:12Z<p>In PF2 they'd still hit 500 times, right? just no crits.</p>In PF2 they'd still hit 500 times, right? just no crits.NielsenE2019-04-24T00:05:12ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersMark Seifterhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#852019-04-25T06:48:20Z2019-04-23T22:06:53Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Cyouni wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">masda_gib wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Even in the playtest, when you roll a 20 and would regularly fail, you only succeed. You need to hit the DC to crit with a 20.</p>
<p>Mark hinted in another thread that the language might be simplified to "A 20 improves the success by one step and a 1 degrades it by one step." </blockquote><p>I think I'm really fine with that, it's a lot easier to remember.
<p>It also does mean that a level 20 fighter is literally never going to miss a level 1 threat, which...I'm fine with. Conversely, if your attack bonus is 30 less than their AC, you really should not be fighting them in the first place, or are completely untrained with it vs a high-level threat. </blockquote><p>Since most of these situations are in the realm of worldbuilding hypothetical rather than gameplay, another good one is it explains a big monster beating an army of 10,000 1st level soldiers with bows. In PF1, they would hit 500 times (25 of them crits even) and kill the monster unless it had problematic DR.Cyouni wrote:masda_gib wrote:Even in the playtest, when you roll a 20 and would regularly fail, you only succeed. You need to hit the DC to crit with a 20.
Mark hinted in another thread that the language might be simplified to "A 20 improves the success by one step and a 1 degrades it by one step."
I think I'm really fine with that, it's a lot easier to remember. It also does mean that a level 20 fighter is literally never going to miss a level 1 threat, which...I'm fine with. Conversely,...Mark Seifter2019-04-23T22:06:53ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersCyounihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#842019-04-24T00:21:07Z2019-04-23T21:52:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">masda_gib wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Even in the playtest, when you roll a 20 and would regularly fail, you only succeed. You need to hit the DC to crit with a 20.</p>
<p>Mark hinted in another thread that the language might be simplified to "A 20 improves the success by one step and a 1 degrades it by one step." </blockquote><p>I think I'm really fine with that, it's a lot easier to remember.
<p>It also does mean that a level 20 fighter is literally never going to miss a level 1 threat, which...I'm fine with. Conversely, if your attack bonus is 30 less than their AC, you really should not be fighting them in the first place, or are completely untrained with it vs a high-level threat.</p>masda_gib wrote:Even in the playtest, when you roll a 20 and would regularly fail, you only succeed. You need to hit the DC to crit with a 20.
Mark hinted in another thread that the language might be simplified to "A 20 improves the success by one step and a 1 degrades it by one step."
I think I'm really fine with that, it's a lot easier to remember. It also does mean that a level 20 fighter is literally never going to miss a level 1 threat, which...I'm fine with. Conversely, if your attack...Cyouni2019-04-23T21:52:24ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersCaptain Morganhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#832019-04-23T20:16:01Z2019-04-23T20:16:01Z<p>I'll point out that the only time you tend to get a 5% chance to hit or a 10% chance to hit and 5% chance to crit or whatever in actual play is when you introduce multiple attack penalties. And I think swinging for that 20 on a -10 MAP is worth that chance to crit, since you're expected DPR for that action is so low anyway.</p>I'll point out that the only time you tend to get a 5% chance to hit or a 10% chance to hit and 5% chance to crit or whatever in actual play is when you introduce multiple attack penalties. And I think swinging for that 20 on a -10 MAP is worth that chance to crit, since you're expected DPR for that action is so low anyway.Captain Morgan2019-04-23T20:16:01ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersmasda_gibhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#822019-04-24T00:21:00Z2019-04-23T19:19:15Z<p>Even in the playtest, when you roll a 20 and would regularly fail, you only succeed. You need to hit the DC to crit with a 20.</p>
<p>Mark hinted in another thread that the language might be simplified to "A 20 improves the success by one step and a 1 degrades it by one step."</p>Even in the playtest, when you roll a 20 and would regularly fail, you only succeed. You need to hit the DC to crit with a 20.
Mark hinted in another thread that the language might be simplified to "A 20 improves the success by one step and a 1 degrades it by one step."masda_gib2019-04-23T19:19:15ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersNielsenEhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#812019-04-23T19:06:17Z2019-04-23T19:06:17Z<p>Yes, I agree that odds listed are unlikely to occur — even more so in 2e from what we've heard than in the playtest.</p>
<p>That doesn't mean I agree that _should they occur_ a crit should be a possibility.</p>
<p>But I misread the post that started this disgression, was thinking they were in this extreme odds range, where people wanted to either miss or crit....</p>Yes, I agree that odds listed are unlikely to occur -- even more so in 2e from what we've heard than in the playtest.
That doesn't mean I agree that _should they occur_ a crit should be a possibility.
But I misread the post that started this disgression, was thinking they were in this extreme odds range, where people wanted to either miss or crit....NielsenE2019-04-23T19:06:17ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersDeadmanwalkinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#802019-04-28T20:07:19Z2019-04-23T18:05:56Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">NielsenE wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Not sure I agree; its a little unsatisfying IMO to to have a 90% miss rate, 5% hit rate, and a 5% crit rate. Or even the 95% miss, 5% crit. with no chance of a normal hit. (This is in spite of my liking most of the +/- 10 system, degrees of success, and the nat 1/20 interactions from the playtest... )</p>
<p>However, we're getting pretty far off this threads topic. </blockquote><p>Your odds will basically never be this bad in actual play. I mean, your odds of a crit will, but not of hitting.
<p>In the playtest a Mutilation Demon is a level 16 foe and has an AC of 38, while a 12th level PC likely has a +3 weapon, a stat of 20, and is, if a primarily martial character, a Master in their weapon, making for a +22 total to hit, without counting flanking (which you will almost certainly have...there are four PCs vs. one of it). That's a 16+ to hit for relatively unexceptional PC warriors (Generic Paladin or Barbarian), and 14+ with flanking. </p>
<p>And that's very definitely as hard an enemy as you should ever have to fight. </p>
<p>And all that's in the playtest. They've specified that PC odds of success are going up, and specifically noted that this includes things like the odds of a Fighter hitting with their attacks...so those odds have probably gone up a tad.</p>NielsenE wrote:Not sure I agree; its a little unsatisfying IMO to to have a 90% miss rate, 5% hit rate, and a 5% crit rate. Or even the 95% miss, 5% crit. with no chance of a normal hit. (This is in spite of my liking most of the +/- 10 system, degrees of success, and the nat 1/20 interactions from the playtest... )
However, we're getting pretty far off this threads topic.
Your odds will basically never be this bad in actual play. I mean, your odds of a crit will, but not of hitting. In the...Deadmanwalking2019-04-23T18:05:56ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersNielsenEhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#792019-04-23T17:54:58Z2019-04-23T17:54:58Z<p>Not sure I agree; its a little unsatisfying IMO to to have a 90% miss rate, 5% hit rate, and a 5% crit rate. Or even the 95% miss, 5% crit. with no chance of a normal hit. (This is in spite of my liking most of the +/- 10 system, degrees of success, and the nat 1/20 interactions from the playtest... )</p>
<p>However, we're getting pretty far off this threads topic.</p>Not sure I agree; its a little unsatisfying IMO to to have a 90% miss rate, 5% hit rate, and a 5% crit rate. Or even the 95% miss, 5% crit. with no chance of a normal hit. (This is in spite of my liking most of the +/- 10 system, degrees of success, and the nat 1/20 interactions from the playtest... )
However, we're getting pretty far off this threads topic.NielsenE2019-04-23T17:54:58ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersEdiwirhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#782019-04-23T17:38:41Z2019-04-23T17:37:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Deadmanwalking wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Xenocrat wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ediwir wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I don’t understand why people talk about lv1s and lv20s or even lv40.</p>
<p>I’m prepping a lv4 fight with a lv5 monster. Barbarian has +10 to hit, monster has AC22. She’ll only crit on a 20. I’d rather have that 5% crit than saying there’s no crits. </blockquote>Flanking plus a single -1 condition (Frightened 1 is easy to pull off) makes that 10%, get to work on those conditions and team work. </blockquote><p>His point is that there should be <i>some</i> chance of a crit even without such measures, that a crit vs. an opponent a single level higher in a straight fight with no tricks should not be <i>impossible</i>. Which, if you eliminate the effects of Natural 20s, they become.
<p>I am inclined to agree with Ediwir in this regard. </blockquote><p><i>tips fedora</i>
</p>
Thank you, good sir. Exactly my point.</p>Deadmanwalking wrote:Xenocrat wrote: Ediwir wrote:I don’t understand why people talk about lv1s and lv20s or even lv40.
I’m prepping a lv4 fight with a lv5 monster. Barbarian has +10 to hit, monster has AC22. She’ll only crit on a 20. I’d rather have that 5% crit than saying there’s no crits.
Flanking plus a single -1 condition (Frightened 1 is easy to pull off) makes that 10%, get to work on those conditions and team work. His point is that there should be some chance of a crit even...Ediwir2019-04-23T17:37:44ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersDeadmanwalkinghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#772019-04-25T06:46:02Z2019-04-23T13:55:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Xenocrat wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Ediwir wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I don’t understand why people talk about lv1s and lv20s or even lv40.</p>
<p>I’m prepping a lv4 fight with a lv5 monster. Barbarian has +10 to hit, monster has AC22. She’ll only crit on a 20. I’d rather have that 5% crit than saying there’s no crits. </blockquote>Flanking plus a single -1 condition (Frightened 1 is easy to pull off) makes that 10%, get to work on those conditions and team work. </blockquote><p>His point is that there should be <i>some</i> chance of a crit even without such measures, that a crit vs. an opponent a single level higher in a straight fight with no tricks should not be <i>impossible</i>. Which, if you eliminate the effects of Natural 20s, they become.
<p>I am inclined to agree with Ediwir in this regard.</p>Xenocrat wrote:Ediwir wrote:I don’t understand why people talk about lv1s and lv20s or even lv40.
I’m prepping a lv4 fight with a lv5 monster. Barbarian has +10 to hit, monster has AC22. She’ll only crit on a 20. I’d rather have that 5% crit than saying there’s no crits.
Flanking plus a single -1 condition (Frightened 1 is easy to pull off) makes that 10%, get to work on those conditions and team work. His point is that there should be some chance of a crit even without such measures, that...Deadmanwalking2019-04-23T13:55:23ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersXenocrathttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#762019-04-24T17:34:29Z2019-04-23T13:49:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Ediwir wrote:</div><blockquote><p> I don’t understand why people talk about lv1s and lv20s or even lv40.</p>
<p>I’m prepping a lv4 fight with a lv5 monster. Barbarian has +10 to hit, monster has AC22. She’ll only crit on a 20. I’d rather have that 5% crit than saying there’s no crits. </blockquote><p>Flanking plus a single -1 condition (Frightened 1 is easy to pull off) makes that 10%, get to work on those conditions and team work.Ediwir wrote:I don’t understand why people talk about lv1s and lv20s or even lv40.
I’m prepping a lv4 fight with a lv5 monster. Barbarian has +10 to hit, monster has AC22. She’ll only crit on a 20. I’d rather have that 5% crit than saying there’s no crits.
Flanking plus a single -1 condition (Frightened 1 is easy to pull off) makes that 10%, get to work on those conditions and team work.Xenocrat2019-04-23T13:49:58ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersEdiwirhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#752019-04-24T11:01:56Z2019-04-23T04:36:53Z<p>I don’t understand why people talk about lv1s and lv20s or even lv40.</p>
<p>I’m prepping a lv4 fight with a lv5 monster. Barbarian has +10 to hit, monster has AC22. She’ll only crit on a 20. I’d rather have that 5% crit than saying there’s no crits.</p>I don’t understand why people talk about lv1s and lv20s or even lv40.
I’m prepping a lv4 fight with a lv5 monster. Barbarian has +10 to hit, monster has AC22. She’ll only crit on a 20. I’d rather have that 5% crit than saying there’s no crits.Ediwir2019-04-23T04:36:53ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersCaptain Morganhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#742019-04-23T03:19:28Z2019-04-23T03:02:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Fumarole wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Shisumo wrote:</div><blockquote>Obviously being outclassed is a huge issue either way, but at least this way your PCs aren't mathematically excluded from ever being a threat to someone. </blockquote>That's a key issue for me right there. I don't <i>ever</i> want one of my players to feel like they cannot contribute to a battle. Of course, attacks aren't the only thing that can be contributed, but why take tools out of their toolbox? They are supposed to be heroes, after all. </blockquote><p>So I don't actually mind how 1s and 20s worked in the playtest, but I'm a little confused by this idea. Your 1st level party shouldn't be fighting enemies with 40 AC in the first place. Something has gone horribly wrong if that happens and they are boned regardless of whether you give them a 5% to land a hit.
<p>This is just a natural consequence of how much level matters. You're players are heroes, but they are still level 1.</p>Fumarole wrote:Shisumo wrote:Obviously being outclassed is a huge issue either way, but at least this way your PCs aren't mathematically excluded from ever being a threat to someone.
That's a key issue for me right there. I don't ever want one of my players to feel like they cannot contribute to a battle. Of course, attacks aren't the only thing that can be contributed, but why take tools out of their toolbox? They are supposed to be heroes, after all. So I don't actually mind how 1s and 20s...Captain Morgan2019-04-23T03:02:52ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersFumarolehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#732019-04-23T06:30:23Z2019-04-22T21:02:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shisumo wrote:</div><blockquote>Obviously being outclassed is a huge issue either way, but at least this way your PCs aren't mathematically excluded from ever being a threat to someone. </blockquote><p>That's a key issue for me right there. I don't <i>ever</i> want one of my players to feel like they cannot contribute to a battle. Of course, attacks aren't the only thing that can be contributed, but why take tools out of their toolbox? They are supposed to be heroes, after all.Shisumo wrote:Obviously being outclassed is a huge issue either way, but at least this way your PCs aren't mathematically excluded from ever being a threat to someone.
That's a key issue for me right there. I don't ever want one of my players to feel like they cannot contribute to a battle. Of course, attacks aren't the only thing that can be contributed, but why take tools out of their toolbox? They are supposed to be heroes, after all.Fumarole2019-04-22T21:02:10ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Second Edition: General Discussion: How does PF 2E handle the power of high level castersShisumohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs42j9j&page=2?How-does-PF-2E-handle-the-power-of-high-level#722019-04-22T19:59:03Z2019-04-22T19:59:03Z<p>To the extent there's a reason to keep either one, I'd say the most persuasive use case would be the low-level PCs facing a target that's absurdly out of their range - an enemy with AC 40 being attacked by a 1st level fighter can never result in anything other than a crit fail without the benefit of a nat 20 rule. Obviously being outclassed is a huge issue either way, but at least this way your PCs aren't mathematically excluded from ever being a threat to someone.</p>To the extent there's a reason to keep either one, I'd say the most persuasive use case would be the low-level PCs facing a target that's absurdly out of their range - an enemy with AC 40 being attacked by a 1st level fighter can never result in anything other than a crit fail without the benefit of a nat 20 rule. Obviously being outclassed is a huge issue either way, but at least this way your PCs aren't mathematically excluded from ever being a threat to someone.Shisumo2019-04-22T19:59:03Z