Okay, I want to check this out. I put a fusion on a couple of different weapons ( Trailblazer for my level 6 laser pistol and level 7 semi auto pistol). I paid the costs out of the book for a level 6 and level 7 fusion. Is that right? And if I want to add additional abilities to either one, it will cost the same to add, but I can add up to the weapon's level in total fusions.
Here is where I am somewhat confused. My lower level character wants to put holy and one other (haven't decided yet, but I have three in mind) onto his melee weapon. He currently has a long sword. If I add holy (a level 1 fusion) I cannot add anything else, as the sword is level 1. If I later get a better weapon, I can transfer the holy to the better weapon for 1/2 the cost of the higher level fusion, since I have a rank in engineering. The same if I want to transfer the trailblazer effects for my primary character when she upgrades her pistols, right? Or am I missing a step here?
And, are weapon fusions even worth it most of the time? You have to upgrade weapons to do more damage, so other than certain creatures, is there any reason for them? I think they made this far too complicated for Starfinder, the old Pathfinder way was easier. They could have still reduced the costs, put in the transfer rules, and called it a day. Why add the extra layers of matching the weapon level, fusion seals, etc?
I dunno why they thought the "extra layers" were a good idea, but you seem to have the rules worked out correctly.
As for whether or not they are worth it? I certainly think so. Almost none of them add direct bonuses to your weapons, but instead add a lot of fun versatility.
Between a massive array of armaments, maze-core tech, weapon accessories, and fusions, soldiers and other combat characters have tons of fun "layers" to work with. Without them, such characters would be much more bland.
Okay, I want to check this out. I put a fusion on a couple of different weapons ( Trailblazer for my level 6 laser pistol and level 7 semi auto pistol). I paid the costs out of the book for a level 6 and level 7 fusion. Is that right?
It's right but it's not optimal.
You can put a level 1 fusion on your level 1 gun and then transfer it to the other item at half the cost of putting it on a level 6/7 weapon: usually this will save you money. (A grenade also works technically but i find that even more iffy, especially on fusions that wouldn't work with grenades)
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Fusions being "worth it" is something I've had trouble with. Some do add useful bonuses, but the majority of them seem to just add critical effects. Considering that we're now hard-locked at nat 20 for criticals, the fact that so many rules are piled onto that 5% chance is just... baffling to me. The rules treat it like this thing that won't even happen in half your fights is some big tactical option.
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They're extremely boring. Gladly there's some better options on the Armory (best book for Starfinder to date), but the fact that most of them are just crit effects is unbearably terrible. I would much rather have a significantly smaller pool of choices that had actual impact in the playstyle. Having expensive effects (that aren't even added, actually only giving you a choice) on critical hits is terribly lackluster for such a money drain, it's even worse when you barely have enough money for your necessary gear and heaven forbid you to think of buying something actually fun or spending your money in grenades, that gets more expensive and less worth it by the level.
So yeah. Aside a few of them that are actually interesting like Glamered, Spellthrower, seeking, blasting, rebounding and bombarding, the rest are too boring and weak to be worth it, I know that I didn't mention all of the fun ones, but the main problem I have are those that only offer critical hits and very situational (and insanely weak) bonuses.
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Also something that has been crit is the least likely one i want to set on fire. It's probably already a marker stain on the map by then...
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First off.. Holy is a level 2 fusion so you can't actually put it on a longsword (L1).
That said, there are quite a couple of useful fusions, to solve some particular problems;
Called - really good on thrown weapons. If you're a heavy armor/high strength/so-so dexterity melee character, you suddenly have a good ranged option too. Many combats happen indoors and thrown weapons have sufficient range for that. Another advantage is that called weapons are useful if you're asked to leave weapons in a locker before entering a club. Leave them behind to satisfy the security guard, then Call them back when a fight breaks out.
Glamered - suited for smuggling past better security guards.
Returning - relevant if you want to make full thrown attacks; get two returning weapons.
Soulfire - relevant to solarians who want to get more out of charisma.
Stabilizing - good on a L1 glove or something, solves a not very common problem nicely.
Trailblazer - good if your GM is into "interesting terrain".
Blasting - probably better investment than most grenades. Can be a funny trick.
Merciful - you can use your fiercest weapon and still capture people alive for interrogation.
Opportunistic - to-hit bonuses are not that common in Starfinder.
Spellthrower - allows non-casters to use spell gems.
Throwing - make your big melee weapon thrown. Works well with Called fusion.
Holy - particularly interesting on energy weapons, because evil outsiders tend to have a lot of energy resistances.
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That's just the level 1 and 2 fusions. I think that's plenty of good stuff. But yeah, I dunno why we get so many crit effect fusions.
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There definitely are a handful of good fusions.
Holy, like Ascalaphus mentioned, is good against resistances. Throwing is awesome, and if it worked with Solar Weapons it would really kick butt.
One of my favorites, though, is Interposing.
"Whenever you hit an enemy with an interposing weapon, you and all adjacent allies gain a +1 enhancement bonus to AC against that enemy’s melee attacks until the beginning of your next turn."
1. It doesn't require a crit, so it's actually a feasible option.
2. It gives you a bonus when going toe-to-toe with a melee enemy, which, as we all know, is basically a guarantee for kissing the floor.
3. It also affects anyone that might be standing next to you, like, for example, the person you just rushed in to try to help.
Well, this one definitely seems really interesting!
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Invigorating is amazing. especially on an operative
(possibly) +3 to your next trick attack skill check
10 feet of movement when you're most likely to have to move
gets rid of fatigued and exhausted if you kill enough people
best knife to have before your coffee... when you stab people for getting in between you and the coffee you'll feel awake enough to apologize
Potent is great on explode weapnos, +1 to the save DC. Overall though, they're not really worth it. There are some neat fusions I've wanted to use, but it's just too pricey to maintain a weapon near your level and rebuy fusions constantly.
With that said, if you can make a low level weapon fusion work it's good. For example, I had a level 4 tailbalde with Spell Thrower and Glamered so it looks like jewelry. Those fusions work at low level so I don't need to rebuy everything constantly.
I would also say that some fusions, like Selective for those of you who want an AoE cannon as a primary weapon are excellent. All of the crit effect ones, I lump into a piLe of things that I consider a minor customization to make found loot more interesting, rather than something a player should ever purchase.
Kind of like fusion seals.
Okay, I want to check this out. I put a fusion on a couple of different weapons ( Trailblazer for my level 6 laser pistol and level 7 semi auto pistol). I paid the costs out of the book for a level 6 and level 7 fusion. Is that right?
It's right but it's not optimal.
You can put a level 1 fusion on your level 1 gun and then transfer it to the other item at half the cost of putting it on a level 6/7 weapon: usually this will save you money. (A grenade also works technically but i find that even more iffy, especially on fusions that wouldn't work with grenades)
I didn't need them until recently. And I was trying to get my operative the best armor for her. My star knight (basically paladin) will probably do weapon upgrades now that he can afford them.
Invigorating is amazing. especially on an operative
(possibly) +3 to your next trick attack skill check
10 feet of movement when you're most likely to have to move
gets rid of fatigued and exhausted if you kill enough people
best knife to have before your coffee... when you stab people for getting in between you and the coffee you'll feel awake enough to apologize
My operative is looking at this for her tac pistol and sniper rifle, along with silencers and a scope for the rifle. I just need the money now.
Don't forget that all critical effects can be avoided through Saving Throws. Couple that with huge bonuses monsters get and weak ass saving throws based on the items, not character, and you have the perfect money sink.
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What?
Only critical effects that state they require a save can be saved against.
CRB
Weapons: (2 out of 11)
- Deafen (Fort or deafened)
- Staggered (Fort or staggered)
Fusions:
- Ominous (Fort or shaken)
- Venomous (depending on the injectable)
Armory
Weapons: (7 out of 16)
- Blind (Reflex or blinded)
- Confuse (Will or confused)
- Fatigue (Fort or fatigued)
- Irradiate (Fort or radiation sickness)
- Leech (Fort or off-target)
- Nauseate (Fort or nauseated)
- Sicket (Fort or sickened)
Fusions:
- Malediction (Will save vs Bestow Curse)
- Mind Rending (Will or psychic trauma)
What?
Only critical effects that state they require a save can be saved against.CRB
Weapons: (2 out of 11)
- Deafen (Fort or deafened)
- Staggered (Fort or staggered)Fusions:
- Ominous (Fort or shaken)
- Venomous (depending on the injectable)Armory
Weapons: (7 out of 16)
- Blind (Reflex or blinded)
- Confuse (Will or confused)
- Fatigue (Fort or fatigued)
- Irradiate (Fort or radiation sickness)
- Leech (Fort or off-target)
- Nauseate (Fort or nauseated)
- Sicket (Fort or sickened)Fusions:
- Malediction (Will save vs Bestow Curse)
- Mind Rending (Will or psychic trauma)
Core Rulebook Page 181 on the small block on the upper right side.
And I quote:
"Some weapons that explode or cause critical hit effects (see page 182)
allow the target to attempt a saving throw. The DC of such a saving
throw is typically equal to 10+half the weapon's item level +one of
your ability modifiers. Unless stated otherwise, the ability modifier
corresponds to the ability score you'd normally use to make an attack
with that weapon (Dexterity for a ranged or thrown weapon, and
Strength for a melee weapon). Any penalty you would normally take
to your weapon attack roll also applies to this DC, including penalties
from the weapon's range increment."
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Yes. Very nice sidebar.
So I as a player get to choose which save the monster has to use if none is listed?
Or do you as GM pick one?
I just noticed that wound/severe wound allows a save against 5 of the 6 possibke locations, so that makes 4 out of 11.
Arc: select a target within 10 ft. of the target creature and deal listed damage to it. No save mentioned. The second creature gets no save to avoid it
Bleed: target gains the bleed condition. Again no save mentioned.
Burning: target gains the burning condition. Again no save mentioned. Yes the burning condition allows a save at the end of the targets turn and all, but gaining it through being critted does not.
Corrode: as burning, but with acid damage.
Injection: increases the DC of the injectible. Does not state that the target gets a save to avoid the increased DC.
Knockdown: target is knocked prone. Again no save mentioned.
Stunned: target is stunned. Again no save mentioned.
The key point is that when you crit, you must choose which effect you want to apply. I think this is indicating that the developers were going for the same rules. So yes, based on that CRB sidebar, I think it's safe to assume that all critical effects given by weapons (with fusion or otherwise) allow a save, unless stated otherwise. This is a general rule that is only ignored by a specific rule. So if the Fusion is saying "no saving throw allowed", then there's no saves, otherwise, you need to stick to the established rules.
In short, critical hit fusions are boring and definitely not worth the money spent.
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Oh, I agree that critical fusions are not really worth the money if you buy them yourself.
But still, some does not mean all. In this case if the critical effect does not list a saving throw the target does not get to make one. You don't get to make one up.
Edit: you only get to choose the effect if your weapon has multiple crit abilities, if your weapon only has a single crit ability it applies that one and possibly allows a save as termined by the crit ability entry.
So if I whack a monster with a weapon that has both the Arc and Bleed critical hit effects, I have to choose if the Arc or the Bleed applies. However the target does not receive a save to avoid whichever one I choose.
Even if you ignore the saves, there are loads of problems with crit fusions.
I ask myself all the following questions:
What is the probability of getting a critical? (1 in 20 per attack)
What is the likelihood of the effect mattering? (What if they're immune? What if the effect is only situationally useful?)
What is the probability that the critical outright kills the target? (Most non-boss enemies die in, what, ~4 hits? A crit counts for 2, so something in the range of half of all crits kill the target?)
How likely is it that a team mate finishes off the target of the critical, without the critical effect helping in any way? (Sure, I blinded them, but their AC didn't change and now they're dead before their turn anyway.)
How long will I have the weapon and its enchantment? (Two levels? Four? How many attacks with that weapon do I make during that time?)
During the time that I have the enchanted weapon, how many times is it likely to matter, given all of the above? (Once? Twice?)
What it boils down to is that I'm very likely to never see a critical based fusion make any difference whatsoever.
Damnta is correct in that you only get a save if the fusion lists one. Knockdown for instance does not and is quite handy when it does come up. Im surprised no one listed my players go to fusion and that is Conserving. its probably the most used fusion by my group. While I agree that crit affects are lack luster they do make a difference especially when fighting the BBG. Generally I feel the utility and damage type ones are best however.
Overall I feel they are in a pretty solid place function wise though.
Stabilizing battle glove is a nice one, for when you find yourself in unexpected zero g.
Even if you ignore the saves, there are loads of problems with crit fusions.
I ask myself all the following questions:
What is the probability of getting a critical? (1 in 20 per attack)
What is the likelihood of the effect mattering? (What if they're immune? What if the effect is only situationally useful?)
What is the probability that the critical outright kills the target? (Most non-boss enemies die in, what, ~4 hits? A crit counts for 2, so something in the range of half of all crits kill the target?)
How likely is it that a team mate finishes off the target of the critical, without the critical effect helping in any way? (Sure, I blinded them, but their AC didn't change and now they're dead before their turn anyway.)
How long will I have the weapon and its enchantment? (Two levels? Four? How many attacks with that weapon do I make during that time?)
During the time that I have the enchanted weapon, how many times is it likely to matter, given all of the above? (Once? Twice?)
What it boils down to is that I'm very likely to never see a critical based fusion make any difference whatsoever.
For real? You have listed all these “problems” but they are not really problems at all.
Yeah, sometimes it will not matter as much if you scored that critical hit and sometimes it will. There is an element of randomness to scoring critical hits, the equivalent of rolling dice. That’s part of what you do in this game. I have never heard someone complain about so much about critical hits and fusions. It almost sounds like you don’t like critical hits, or are you trolling?
Or am I misunderstanding you?
You're completely misunderstanding. Everybody does like to dish out a mean critical hit, that's just obvious. But the huge problem with Fusions, the discussion at hand, is that they require a ever-increasing significant chunk of your currency and they get obsolete as you level up.
The issue is, for such a huge amount of your wealth by level, they, as the main way of customizing your weapon (specially in pre-Armory Starfinder), they offer very little and are mostly meaningless, with a just a small fraction of them offering interesting effects that are worth their investment.
They are magical effects you attach your weapon, I think it's reasonable for the players to expect them to be something truly magical. But reality is often disappointing and what we got wasn't even as interesting as the old elemental effects from Pathfinder (conditional extra 1d6 of damage).
This is the whole issue. The same with grenades. They're way too expensive, offer almost nothing in return and the ideas behind both Fusions and Grenades is ripe with interesting ideas, but the execution has been subpar to say the least. Gladly, seems like there's some new ideas popping up in recent books that has been making the game as a whole more interesting.
Starfinder Design Lead
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Critical hit effects only allow saving throws if the critical hit effects says it does. This is also how you know what kind of saving throw the critical hit effect allows.
The sidebar specifically says only some critical hit effects allow saves. No critical hit effect calls it it does not allow a save. Several call out that they do allow saves.
Critical hit effects only allow saving throws if the critical hit effects says it does. This is also how you know what kind of saving throw the critical hit effect allows.
The sidebar specifically says only some critical hit effects allow saves. No critical hit effect calls it it does not allow a save. Several call out that they do allow saves.
That's great to know. That makes them a little better then, since you can simply choose to apply the fusion effect with guaranteed benefit rather than the weapon's effect.
I think my takeaway from this discussion is that if I come across a weapon fusion in loot, I'll happily slap it on a weapon--it might come in handy, you never know. But I probably would not invest significant cash in buying one.
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There are definitely some that are worth buying. Just none of the critical hit stuff.
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I have limited time at the moment, so I will reply on the topic of grenades and will try to give a productive answer in good faith for the other things you mentioned at a later time. I need to look at the math of PC wealth and upgrading your fusions.
Grenades may be expensive, but keep in mind:
-That most of them affect a minimum 10 ft radius, and it only gets larger from there. So you will hit lots of foes!
-You target a grid square or intersection with an AC of 5 within the first range increment of 20 feet. You will most likely always hit!
-Smoke grenades can create large areas with concealment! Great for escapes or staying out of trouble.
-Entanglement grenades will mess up your opponents melee fighters forcing them to stay in place, change weapons to ranged if they have any, keep your casters safer from front liners.So despite the costs of grenades, they are pretty powerful, so I would not put them off.
I think you missed a couple of key things that really bring down the effectiveness of grenades.
Grenades are thrown weapons that detonate in an explosive radius when they reach the target. A grenade’s listing on Table 7–7: Grenades shows its explosion radius. Some grenades have additional effects, such as blinded or entangled, that apply only to creatures in the explosion radius that fail a Reflex save against the grenade. The DC of the save is equal to 10 + half the grenade’s item level + your Dexterity modifier. Any penalty you take to your attack roll also applies to this save DC.
* Your to-hit roll is based on Strength because it's a thrown weapon, but the save DC is based on Dexterity, just because. So you're getting a bit MAD for using grenades. In particular, they're disappointing for heavy armor/melee soldiers.
* The extra effects only apply if you fail the save against the grenade. Any penalty to the attack roll reduces the DC. This means a grenade thrown at the second range increment is already at -2 DC. That's unfortunate because generally the best moment for throwing grenades is at the start of an encounter when enemies are still bunched together with no PCs among them. But that's also often more than 20ft. apart.
* The save DC is also based on item level, so you have to use more and more expensive grenades to keep up with monsters.
* Weapon Specialization never applies to grenades. As weapons with the Explode property, a successful Reflex save always halves the damage (and excuses Operatives and Vanguards with Evasion). And remember how hard it was to make this save DC high. So damage is typically rather low unless you're prepared to spend a ridiculous amount of money.
I love tanglefoot bags in Pathfinder; although enemies can pass the save to get stuck on the ground easily, it's only a touch AC to hit them and they're still entangled if they pass the save. Stickybomb grenades in Starfinder aren't nearly as good, because on a succesfull save they do nothing and the save DC doesn't scale well.
The only grenades that have proven really worthwhile in Starfinder are:
* Smoke grenades. Absolutely awesome. Use them to cover your approach to sniper's nest. Use them to hide your retreat when you realize you're in over your head. Use them to scare away animal swarms that have trouble breathing smoke. Use them if your team has blindsight, like Kalo PCs for example. But really, smoke grenades do something so different than regular grenades, that they're kinda their own thing.
* Grenades that you conveniently find when the author puts them there to help you fight a swarm. Thanks for the help, I would have never spent 2x 2,720 on Mk2 Screamer grenades, but they're very very convenient now that we're facing this CR 6 swarm with sonic vulnerability. Gee thanks.
* We use other low level grenades just to stir up enemies. "I'm sure there's an angry animal lurking in that suspicious looking trashhead." Throw a worthless grenade at it just to flush it out.
* Bombard soldiers. The whole story about grenades being bad value for money changes completely if you don't have to pay money for it.
* Illusion and summon grenades. Those also get around the standard problems with grenades.
For real? You have listed all these “problems” but they are not really problems at all.
Yeah, sometimes it will not matter as much if you scored that critical hit and sometimes it will. There is an element of randomness to scoring critical hits, the equivalent of rolling dice. That’s part of what you do in this game. I have never heard someone complain about so much about critical hits and fusions. It almost sounds like you don’t like critical hits, or are you trolling?
Or am I misunderstanding you?
I assure you, I am most certainly not trolling.
Criticals are great! Crits can turn a fight around! It's awesome that they're random, and when they happen the table's reaction is universally happy or relieved because it could mean a much easier fight.
Critical effects, however, are not nearly so good.
An example from my experience: I found a Minor Gluon weapon crystal at 8th level as loot. I am now 11th level. I have consulted the Severe Wound chart exactly twice. Once, the enemy lost an eye and then died next round. Once, the enemy got the bleed effect and took two rounds of 1d6 damage before dying. The critical effect on this level 9 weapon has done a total of 2d6 damage over the course of 3 whole levels, and has had no other meaningful impact.
Unless your crit effect adds straight damage to your crit, there is a significant likelihood that you will never see the extra effect come into play.
Fusions that have *other* bonuses, in addition to the critical effect, are sometimes worth it. Like changing damage type, or bypassing specific resistances, etc. It's also important to remember crit effects don't stack, so if you have an effect that would outright kill an enemy, even if the other effect would be thematically appropriate, the damage one is better.
Here are a couple fusions that would be ideal for my character, but fail the questions I asked in the previous post and are therefore not worth the credits.
Leeching: I have to crit and be hurt, and it can only happen once between rests. So, if it heals stamina and I rest it functionally had no effect. It would cost 2,600 credits, which would buy me 52d8 healing worth of Serums of Healing, and be completely reliable.
Spellbane: If I crit, I can stop a caster from casting for 1d4 rounds. So I have to be fighting a caster, and I have to crit without killing them or anyone else killing them before they have a chance to try to act. I don't fight enough casters to make this come into play with only a 5% crit chance, and if they don't cast, I don't get my attack of opportunity either.
Perhaps it's because, as a melee character, my hits do a ton of damage, but overkill is a big problem for the value of critical effects.
Crit effects tend to do more to players than they do opponents.
Putting them on enemey weapons, I kind of doubt I would even include their 10% value in treasure calculations.
I like Opportunistic on a pike or other Reach weapon. +2 AB and +2 or more damage on a Reach AoO is pretty slick, and could change the complexion of a battle.