A Matter of Life and Death


Second Edition


Yep, it's that time again. I made a thread. Sorry everyone.

So, Jason finally delivered and dropped someone. With a single fall of course we don't yet know everything about the dying rules, but we have had quite a few snippets, and... I don't know if I'm on board. Then again, someone did yell "abandon ship".

As a brief recap, here's what we know about the dying rules in final:

-Once you reach 0hp, you are Dying 1 (Dying2 if downed by a crit).
-Initiative is moved, player makes Recovery roll on his/her/their turn. DC 10+Dying, CS/S/F/CF are Reduce Dying by 2 / Reduce Dying by 1 / Increase Dying by 1 / Increase Dying by 2. This is a mix of stream information and chat discussion with Jason.
-Can burn all hero points to remove Dying/Wounded and remain unconscious at 0. Probably doable after the roll, but maybe not.
-You die upon reaching Dying 4.
-Doomed is still a thing because Jason can't be mean and take away my Christmas present.
-Wounded has been mentioned as being a thing.

Now, there's a bit of speculation on my side. Here's some possibilities.
A- Wounded equals the highest Dying value achieved and resets on Treat Wounds (as in some adaptations)
B- Wounded equals the number of times you fall unconscious and resets on Treat Wounds (playtest)
C- Wounded equals the number of times you fall unconscious and scales down on Treat Wounds (harsher)
D- Wounded equals the number of times you fall unconscious and resets on rest (hardcore)
E- Wounded equals the number of times you fall unconscious and scales down on rest (last azlanti mode?)

In case A, Wounded is bit too dire. While it does create danger and tension, you could be downed by a crit and then get critted soon after before having the chance to Treat Wounds. It happened twice in my AP conversion already (to the same person, a shield fighter with the best AC and the worst luck). A system like this would rely heavily on hero points to avoid death - and if someone remembers my rants, hero point short-circuiting was a pretty nasty issue for me, as it led things towards a very binary situation of whether or not someone had their get out of jail card ready. Add to this a free hero point per session, and the ruleset will likely be something people never need to learn and can just check the one time it shows up.

In case B (and other cases up to E), Wounded is just a little milder, as it can accumulate and create a lot of risk if left unchecked. However, this version means you only reach the "danger zone" of instant kills if you fall three or more times before the value goes down. Still, the issue remains - hero points mean you don't get Wounded, so back to square zero (and if hero points clear Wounded, as it looks, you might just wipe away everything at once).

I'm honestly not sure how to feel. My players have asked to edit the dying system to move closer to final rules, but if this is the direction, I feel like creating tension might be a pretty hard task.

For comparison, this is what I currently use:
-Once you reach 0hp, you are Dying1+wounded (at least Dying2 if downed by a crit).
-Initiative is moved, player makes Recovery roll at the end of his/her/their turn. DC based on Fortitude proficiency (TEML 12/10/8/6), CS/S/F/CF are Remove Dying/Wounded and wake up with 1hp / No effect / Increase Dying by 1 / Increase Dying by 2
-Can burn three hero points to remove Dying/Wounded and wake up with 1hp (hero points reset on levelup, can be used for reroll/extra action/healing)
-You die if any effect would increase your Dying while you are Dying 4.
-Doomed is my baby.
-Wounded is your Dying value before waking up and is removed by Treat Wounds.

Does it feel better? I don't know. I know it feels. I know I use it.
Final rules?
Dunno.
This might be the first bit of news I feel iffy about.


What is the Doomed condition?


Darkwynters wrote:
What is the Doomed condition?

Special condition that was announced during an podcast.. For now we know if you get to Doomed 4 you die, not much outside of that.


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Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
oholoko wrote:
Darkwynters wrote:
What is the Doomed condition?
Special condition that was announced during an podcast.. For now we know if you get to Doomed 4 you die, not much outside of that.

Doomed reduces what Dying level kills you. Doomed 1 means Dying 3 is fatal. Doomed 4 would effectively be Dying 0 is lethal, so you’re just dead.


What kinds of things inflict Doomed?


Pathfinder Campaign Setting, Companion Subscriber
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
What kinds of things inflict Doomed?

No idea yet, but it does seem to be designed as a “drop everything to get it fixed” condition much like negative levels were.


It is almost certainly gonna be from nasty curse type creatures. I imagine Doom spells will fit into the necromancy school.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I hope Doomed increases each time you are healed back from near-death, so that players will be a bit more careful with their characters


Quick dying question: one of my student’s barbarian was cut down by a Black Echelon operative, I then had the undead scourge slash him with a rusty sickle. So the barbarian was at Dying 2, I moved his Initiative to before the BE operative. On the barbarian’s turn, he rolled a 7 on an 11 DC flat check recovery. Dying 3... the cleric used Heal spell right after this. The barbarian has 23 HP... she healed 7 HP. So does the Barbarian:
A) get 7 HP and is conscious.
B) go to 0 HP and is unconscious.
C) gets 7 HP and has wounded condition.


Darkwynters wrote:

Quick dying question: one of my student’s barbarian was cut down by a Black Echelon operative, I then had the undead scourge slash him with a rusty sickle. So the barbarian was at Dying 2, I moved his Initiative to before the BE operative. On the barbarian’s turn, he rolled a 7 on an 11 DC flat check recovery. Dying 3... the cleric used Heal spell right after this. The barbarian has 23 HP... she healed 7 HP. So does the Barbarian:

A) get 7 HP and is conscious.
B) go to 0 HP and is unconscious.
C) gets 7 HP and has wounded condition.

The most correct is C

But to be correct: Barbarian gets 7 HP, is prone, dropped his weapon and is Wounded 1


Assuming I understand the final version correctly, Barbar gets 7 HP, is conscious, and gains the wounded condition.


Isn't Doomed mechanically, basically the same thing as Wounded? One drops the death threshold by one step, the other raises your started dying condition by one step. Seems pretty much the same thing from a different angle. That is unless they change what wounded does.


Doktor Weasel wrote:
Isn't Doomed mechanically, basically the same thing as Wounded? One drops the death threshold by one step, the other raises your started dying condition by one step. Seems pretty much the same thing from a different angle. That is unless they change what wounded does.

It sounds like it, yes. The main difference presumably comes from the source of condition. Wounded is from taking wounds, where Doomed comes from curses.

There may wind up being some slight differences, like their are between frightened and sick or enfeebled and sluggish.

Liberty's Edge

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It's also very likely that you get rid of Doomed and Wounded in entirely different ways. Wounded is almost certainly fixable with medical treatment of some sort. Doomed probably not so much.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
It's also very likely that you get rid of Doomed and Wounded in entirely different ways. Wounded is almost certainly fixable with medical treatment of some sort. Doomed probably not so much.

Also let's not forget you can't die by being Wounded. You die by falling after being wounded, doomed can kill outright andt here's no feats that increase the doomed threshold like they do with dying.


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Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
What kinds of things inflict Doomed?

The core bestiary includes psychopomps, which are Pharasma's servants, Neutral-aligned agents of death and guardians of the River of Souls.

Want me to take a guess?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Doktor Weasel wrote:
Isn't Doomed mechanically, basically the same thing as Wounded? One drops the death threshold by one step, the other raises your started dying condition by one step. Seems pretty much the same thing from a different angle. That is unless they change what wounded does.

Because they have different effects they also probably stack. It would really be bad to be both Wounded and Doomed.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
I hope Doomed increases each time you are healed back from near-death, so that players will be a bit more careful with their characters

That'd be a neat little house rule for hardcore games. Each time you are downed, your doomed condition goes up permanently.


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Dire Ursus wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
I hope Doomed increases each time you are healed back from near-death, so that players will be a bit more careful with their characters
That'd be a neat little house rule for hardcore games. Each time you are downed, your doomed condition goes up permanently.

Honestly, it sounds awful except as a challenge to see how far you can get before you die permanently.

I played melee characters only during the playtest, and it wasn't uncommon for my character to be either knocked out or nearly knocked out and brought back into the fight via healing. Currently it's very hard for a lone melee character to stay on their feet through an entire fight. Honestly this suggestion just sounds awful unless it's just an exercise in masochism.


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Dire Ursus wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
I hope Doomed increases each time you are healed back from near-death, so that players will be a bit more careful with their characters
That'd be a neat little house rule for hardcore games. Each time you are downed, your doomed condition goes up permanently.

Perhaps with a complicated ritual/quest to bring the doomed level down?


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Hadn't heard about the Doomed condition before, but now I really want to build the Clock Phantom as a PF2e monster... Each quarter of the clock that lights up inflicts a level of Doomed on the party... :P

It also seems like a nice place for spells like Finger of Death to go, where they can be terrifying without having to do enough damage to kill outright. If Finger of Death only did a moderate amount of damage but also inflicted Doomed 3... That becomes a pretty scary spell. :)


MaxAstro wrote:

Hadn't heard about the Doomed condition before, but now I really want to build the Clock Phantom as a PF2e monster... Each quarter of the clock that lights up inflicts a level of Doomed on the party... :P

It also seems like a nice place for spells like Finger of Death to go, where they can be terrifying without having to do enough damage to kill outright. If Finger of Death only did a moderate amount of damage but also inflicted Doomed 3... That becomes a pretty scary spell. :)

it also becomes useless as anything but a narratively anti-PC spell. Pretty meta and awful, honestly.


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I could see something like certain kinds of monsters can sense if you are doomed (could also do this for wounded, just different monsters). It would certainly inspire a party to "fix" a doomed member if every undead for 10 miles in all directions (more if you are more doomed) started following the party around.....


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Voss wrote:
MaxAstro wrote:

Hadn't heard about the Doomed condition before, but now I really want to build the Clock Phantom as a PF2e monster... Each quarter of the clock that lights up inflicts a level of Doomed on the party... :P

It also seems like a nice place for spells like Finger of Death to go, where they can be terrifying without having to do enough damage to kill outright. If Finger of Death only did a moderate amount of damage but also inflicted Doomed 3... That becomes a pretty scary spell. :)

it also becomes useless as anything but a narratively anti-PC spell. Pretty meta and awful, honestly.

Not entirely - I certainly plan to use the dying rules for major NPCs, and my players certainly know that I am totally unafraid to give said NPCs healer backup.


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MaxAstro wrote:
Voss wrote:
it also becomes useless as anything but a narratively anti-PC spell. Pretty meta and awful, honestly.
Not entirely - I certainly plan to use the dying rules for major NPCs, and my players certainly know that I am totally unafraid to give said NPCs healer backup.

Depending on how savvy said NPC is, it could change the aspect of a fight entirely. Somebody who knows they are Doomed might back out of a fight well before they run out of hitpoints or otherwise change how the fight is going since the risk is now higher.

Running out of hitpoints might just get you captured. Inflicting Doom on somebody is a sure fire way to let them know you want them dead.


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Mechagamera wrote:
I could see something like certain kinds of monsters can sense if you are doomed (could also do this for wounded, just different monsters). It would certainly inspire a party to "fix" a doomed member if every undead for 10 miles in all directions (more if you are more doomed) started following the party around.....

That would be pretty cool. Or maybe some sort of undead whose Blindsense only works on Doomed creatures. Very creepy.


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Thebazilly wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
I could see something like certain kinds of monsters can sense if you are doomed (could also do this for wounded, just different monsters). It would certainly inspire a party to "fix" a doomed member if every undead for 10 miles in all directions (more if you are more doomed) started following the party around.....
That would be pretty cool. Or maybe some sort of undead whose Blindsense only works on Doomed creatures. Very creepy.

That is creepy and opens up interesting options for the statuses, both Doomed and Wounded.

Another option would be undead that thing you are one of them if you are Doomed, but can sense your presence if you are Wounded. So walking through a horde of zombies will work out fine if your soul is dislocated... So long as they can't sense your living blood.

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