Poorly Written / Confusing / Non-existent Pathfinder Society Guides - Very Intimidating and Confusing to Casual Gamers and Newcomers


Pathfinder Society

Liberty's Edge

I am the only Pathfinder GM in my area, and over the years, I have made considerable effort introducing this game to newbies and GMing for them.

I first started GM'ing for Pathfinder back in 2014. At that time, I noticed something called "Pathfinder Society organized Play", but didn't bother about it, as I wanted to GM for Pathfinder first.

Now, I want to try out Pathfinder Society for Organized Play and am disappointed to see poor guidance available for newcomers.

1. After some research, I came to know "Pathfinder Society Guild" is the same as Pathfinder Society for Organized Play, although the fact that this name was changed is not mentioned anywhere.
2. I downloaded the Pathfinder Society field guide which mentioned some 10 factions that we can choose from, only to find, after several hours of reading, that all these factions are entirely outdated! If something is outdated, why do you want to keep it for download on your page? You are confusing new players.
3. Then, I downloaded Pathfinder Society Roleplaying "Guild Guide" and was appalled to see how unwelcoming it is to new players. In player "basics" on page 6 it says - "Take this time to determine which of your characters within the adventure’s subtier you want to play". What is subtier? Did you assume that all new players would have an automatic understanding of this concept? Did you link to some place, where you explain what subtier means?
4. I can go on with several examples, where this "guide" assumes a lot of knowledge on the player's behalf.

Overall, Pathfinder Society documentation is overwhelming, confusing and discouraging of new players. I remember reading the player and the GM guide in the beginners box and it was such a beautiful and crisply written book for absolute beginners which made me immediately get together a bunch of guys and start playing. I am afraid I can't say the same for Pathfinder Society.

I am still reading these damn guides with a lot of frustration, hoping to eventually figure out how to GM for these games and what books/guides to read in what order.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

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Yeah, Pathfinder Society is a living campaign which has been running for more than 10 years now, so there's a lot of information, some of which is now conflicting due to the very nature of the campaign.

There's an excellent fan made guide that hopefully helps to clear things up!

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

First, Paizo the publishing company and Organized Play are two different entities. They are symbiotic, yes, but first publishes rules for the Pathfinder gaming system. Organized Play functions as a worl-wide overseeing GM for a living campaign by applying a set of "house rules" that anyone participating in Organized Play follows.

Second, you can find additional resources on GMing here: Pathfinder Society GM Basics 101 and Pathfinder Society GM Basics 201.

Third, if you do not have a local Venture-Captain to discuss the whats and hows of PFS, then you do have a Regional Venture-Captain to write to to learn how to GM for PFS here: Coordinators

On your specifics:

1. The terms are synonyms. Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild is one living campaign under Organized Play.
2A. The seasonal guides, updated and published annually by the Organized Play Foundation, contains all the up-to-date information on factions (and other OP house rules) that a player would need. That document should be your source of information regarding Organized Play campaign house rules.
2B. The Pathfinder Society Field Guide is a Campaign Setting book, not an Organized Play book. It's full name is: Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide. It is published by Paizo, not the Organized Play Foundation, and is a paid product that presents campaign setting information for anyone playing Pathfinder in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, not just those playing Organized Play, no different than Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Guide to the River Kingdoms. It is a game product not an Organized Play document.
3. The concept of Tiers and Subtiers is explained in Chapter 3 and Chapter 4.
4. A person does not play PFS in a vacuum. Most people will need to discuss their questions with someone such as the GM when they show up to a PFS event or their local Venture Agent/Lieutenant/Captain or at least other experienced PFS GMs before you start running events on your own. People will have questions, and those questions are best asked of other people.

EDIT: Edited for tone.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

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I ❤ Flutter and his efforts to make things accessible for all newcomers. There's also a really welcoming community here that will be happy to answer any other questions you might have.

Welcome, newcomer! We're here to answer any and all questions. I think that it's great that you want to get started for Organized play, and launch it in your area. Once we get you oriented, you will find that there are hundreds of scenarios and other wonderful adventures you can share with your community.

If there are no Venture Officers near you, we can try and help you find someone of whom you can ask all your questions. Or we can answer them!

Hmm

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

What may not be immediately obvious is that “Pathfinder Society” refers to both the in-game organization of adventurers and to the out-of-game (real world) organized play community. If you are not careful, it may be easy for a new player to confuse when they are reading about one or the other. The Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide is the most current (updated once a year) is a free download available on the Paizo website and is the place to start when someone wants to join the campaign. Reading that document should answer the majority of questions a new player will have. Thereafter, you may have to seek out a live person, check out the FAQ, Clarification Document, etc to find the answers to more detailed questions. Good luck!

Explore! Report! Cooperate!

5/5 5/55/55/5

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They are aware of what the guides evolved into over the years are will probably be putting out a beginners guide this year.

PFSchat.com discord has people around to walk you through it if you want.

I think the bigger issue is that it's meant to spread from player to player rather than to be picked up from a document. So having seen how it works you really don't need the big picture stuff nearly as much.

Of course that was back before the internet, when TI 84s roamed the earth...

Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

I think the bigger issue is that it's meant to spread from player to player rather than to be picked up from a document. So having seen how it works you really don't need the big picture stuff nearly as much.

Of course that was back before the internet, when TI 84s roamed the earth...

I think this is the crux of the issue before us and also one which is being drastically changed. The very nature of the RPGs from the original creation of D&D way back in the 1970s was that the knowledge of the game was passed from person to person. The game itself evolved through multiple iterations and as it did, the players were the ones who passed the knowledge to new players. This limited the growth of the game and the player base as it only grew from personal contact in most cases.

Advance the clock to now. We are now in the Age of Information. We have more knowledge at our fingertips than we can process in our lifetimes. Whereas once information was acquired through experience and learning, and that acquisition required years of research and processing in an individual's brain, now the information is readily available and the processing of it in the brain has changed as well.

In the game world, we are now seeing a fundamental change in the way the information is delivered and received. The growth of the D&D audience shows us what can happen when the presentation of information is changed from being person to person, but instead by an individual searching for the information. I believe that 2e is an attempt to do the same by Paizo.

So now in PFS, we need to do the same. We can no longer assume that things will remain the way they have been meaning information being delivered in a person to person manner. We have to change our delivery system to accommodate the new reality. Developing the new Guild Guide is going to require a change in the way it is written and presented. The information has to be such that a person can read it and understand it without having to ask someone else what it means.

To be honest, I think we're going to see Org Play change significantly as a result. We are going to have more players and they're going to be different than the ones we are used to. We have to adapt to the change. It is a time for vision. Will we be up to it?

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber

The are publishing a Quick Start Guide with PFS2 in addition to the RPG Guild Guide, which I believe is designed to address that.

Xathos of Varisia wrote:
The information has to be such that a person can read it and understand it without having to ask someone else what it means.

I disagree with this statement, though. One should expect to ask questions of other people at some point along the way. For me, that concept removes the onus of learning from the student to the teacher ("It's my teacher's fault that I failed the algebra test because she didn't teach it well.") And neither should we as a community expect new players to understand everything even if they read the documents, and we should be prepared to assist them ("Well, if you read the employee handbook properly, you'd know how to do your job.")

To expect a written document to address any and all questions one might ever have and for it to be written in an objectively understandable way across multiple ages, cultures, languages, and educational levels is an unreasonable expectation.

For example, the rules go so far as to be basic as to tell you that a d20 Roll is "a roll with a 20-sided die." But the rules do not tell you what a die is, what a 20-sided die looks like, nor where you can obtain one.

I can get behind better guidance for new players and GMs, but I cannot get behind the idea that all we need is one perfect document and then we will no longer need to ask questions.

Grand Lodge 4/5

On the players to ask also. The guide could be better but it can only goes so far. The bad question is the question that it is not asked. And anyway, the guide can't explain all the main things at the same time it should be understandable for everybody. There's balances and sacrifices to do. The players should do their part of the bargain, which is to do some research themselves.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Even with the best guide around, society play has enough going on that you really should see it in action before trying to run it. If you're the only one in the area, and can't get to a game day or a con try it online.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

Blake's Tiger wrote:


To expect a written document to address any and all questions one might ever have and for it to be written in an objectively understandable way across multiple ages, cultures, languages, and educational levels is an unreasonable expectation.

That is the entire point of a written language. It is to preserve knowledge and to pass it along. As for the education profession, if one takes the time to actually teach people how to learn and to think they don't have to ask as many questions. That's how I approach teaching history.

Will there still be questions? Yes. The issue is in how many questions. To put it bluntly, it's time to change the way the game is transmitted to people. That goes for the Guild Guide as well. No longer should we have a document that has to be decoded and translated for players. It is time to rewrite it from the ground up with the goal of minimizing confusion.

I hope that is what Org Play does.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

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To suggest the guide has not been written and rewritten for clarity already is laughable.

2/5 5/5 **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens Subscriber
Xathos of Varisia wrote:
Will there still be questions? Yes. The issue is in how many questions.

That's not what you said, though.

You said:

Xathos of Varisia wrote:
The information has to be such that a person can read it and understand it without having to ask someone else what it means.

Bolding mine. Ergo no questions.

Xathos of Varisia wrote:
To put it bluntly, it's time to change the way the game is transmitted to people. That goes for the Guild Guide as well.

...not using language?

Xathos of Varisia wrote:
No longer should we have a document that has to be decoded and translated for players.

We don't, at least not as of Season 8. I read that document and had all the knowledge I needed to play PFS, understanding of AR and CC included. My only question on my first day of PFS was, "Which table is low tier?" However, I guarentee you that neither my mother nor my son would understand without asking questions, and that's not because OPF hasn't tried (and continues to strive to do better) to write an understanable while still concise enough to fit in their budget guide.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

Reckon it's being rewritten again as it is still not clear enough. Welcome to a new day in the world of RPG's. Whether you like it or not, the times are changing. Second edition is proof enough of that.

Since you think you got it all figured out, go back to the original poster of this thread and tell him he should know it all from the guide since you do. Obviously you're wrong.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ** Venture-Agent, Colorado—Denver

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I enjoy PFS because it is a social game with others that enjoy Pathfinder & PFS. I cannot discuss PFS with my wife or co-workers because they have no idea what I'm talking about. But, when I sit down at a PFS table and ask several questions about this "crazy PFS stuff", I am given answers, guidance, comments, etc... (very enthusiasticly) by others at the table. I make sure to do the same to any new players at a table.

My point is: It's not an easy version of RPGs to grasp. Let's all be there to help others.

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