Whip grappling.


Rules Questions


The Hangman Vigilante archetype allows me to use a noose as a whip, as a net and to grapple.

So if I grapple someone with a whip from 15ft away, do I gain the grappled condition? Meaning neither the target nor I can move?

As per grapple, the target should be moved to a square adjacent to me of my choice. Can I then grapple a target 15ft away, pull them beside me, then free-action release the grapple?


I would use the rules in Greater Whip Mastery for any whip grappling that doesn't bother to provide its own detailed rules.


I always played it that you gain the grappled condition unless you let go of the whip as a free action. But if you have Whip Mastery, you no longer provoke AOO and can chose to strike with lethal damage. But only if your advance to Improved Whip Mastery do you get "free action release" - and some might say that only applies to small and tiny objects, but others (like me) would say that depends more of=n the weight and resistance of the target. See Ultimate Combat.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
I would use the rules in Greater Whip Mastery for any whip grappling that doesn't bother to provide its own detailed rules.

Yeah I've tried to read Greater Whip Mastery to use as a basis for whip grappling from Hangman, although I still don't really understand it, specifically the 'Reach' paragraph of it.

"Rather than pulling your grappled opponent adjacent to you when you successfully grapple and when you move the grapple, you must keep him within your whip’s reach minus his own reach to maintain the grapple."

This part makes it seem like you can't pull your opponent to you, like you do normally with grapples. The 'keeping within your reach' part also confuses me, does that mean I am forced to pull creatures that have reach towards me? Or I can't grapple them from 15ft, I'd have to be 10ft away to grapple them and they don't move towards me?

But then this part:
"If you have to pull a creature adjacent to you to grapple it with your whip"

Makes it seem like I'd hit a large creature 15ft away, he's then pulled 5ft towards me and then grappled. I still don't know if I have the option of pulling them to an adjacent square.


As a Rules Question™, yes, you gain the grappled condition, just like you would any other time you use a weapon to grapple (unless contradicted by more specific rules text).


Kiniticyst wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
I would use the rules in Greater Whip Mastery for any whip grappling that doesn't bother to provide its own detailed rules.

Yeah I've tried to read Greater Whip Mastery to use as a basis for whip grappling from Hangman, although I still don't really understand it, specifically the 'Reach' paragraph of it.

"Rather than pulling your grappled opponent adjacent to you when you successfully grapple and when you move the grapple, you must keep him within your whip’s reach minus his own reach to maintain the grapple."

A whip typically has 15' reach. A Medium creature has 5' reach, so if you whip-grapple one you must keep it within 15'-5'=10'. A Large biped usually has 10' reach, so you'd keep one within 15'-10'=5'. A Huge biped usually has 15' reach, so you'd keep one within 15'-15'=0', i.e. adjacent to you (provoking an AoO). Things with more reach than that you can't grapple with the whip.

If the creature is more than the appropriate distance from you when you grapple it, you pull it into the appropriate distance. I don't believe you have the option to pull it closer than you must, as no text seems to provide such an option.

Hope that helps.


blahpers wrote:
As a Rules Question™, yes, you gain the grappled condition, just like you would any other time you use a weapon to grapple (unless contradicted by more specific rules text).

Thanks! I had read this thread:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r3na?whip-grapple

Where a user said that the feat says you don't gain the grappled condition, but it's from like 5 years ago so maybe there was an errata for whip mastery?


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:


A whip typically has 15' reach. A Medium creature has 5' reach, so if you whip-grapple one you must keep it within 15'-5'=10'. A Large biped usually has 10' reach, so you'd keep one within 15'-10'=5'. A Huge biped usually has 15' reach, so you'd keep one within 15'-15'=0', i.e. adjacent to you (provoking an AoO). Things with more reach than that you can't grapple with the whip.

It seems so strange that I can't grapple a large dude that is holding a whip (20ft reach), but I can grapple and reposition a gargantuan brontosaurus no problems (it only has 10ft reach). Why the heck is it based of reach instead of size, or even natural reach..

Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:


If the creature is more than the appropriate distance from you when you grapple it, you pull it into the appropriate distance. I don't believe you have the option to pull it closer than you must, as no text seems to provide such an option.

Kind of equally odd, because then you can pull around larger creatures, but not small creatures.. Which is truly ridiculous.


Kiniticyst wrote:
Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:
A whip typically has 15' reach. A Medium creature has 5' reach, so if you whip-grapple one you must keep it within 15'-5'=10'. A Large biped usually has 10' reach, so you'd keep one within 15'-10'=5'. A Huge biped usually has 15' reach, so you'd keep one within 15'-15'=0', i.e. adjacent to you (provoking an AoO). Things with more reach than that you can't grapple with the whip.
It seems so strange that I can't grapple a large dude that is holding a whip (20ft reach), but I can grapple and reposition a gargantuan brontosaurus no problems (it only has 10ft reach). Why the heck is it based of reach instead of size, or even natural reach..

Heh. Actually I always read reach here as natural reach until you made this point. I would still GM it that way, but I admit I can't prove by the rules text that it's correct. I agree that size would be better thing to go by here than any form of reach.

Re the grappled condition: blahpers is correct, and I suspect the poster in the other thread was confusing "the feat doesn't say you do gain the grappled condition" with "the feat says you don't gain the grappled condition." The feat does not bother to repeat all the parts of the grappling rules it doesn't change, is all.


Fuzzy-Wuzzy wrote:

Re the grappled condition: blahpers is correct, and I suspect the poster in the other thread was confusing "the feat doesn't say you do gain the grappled condition" with "the feat says you don't gain the grappled condition." The feat does not bother to repeat all the parts of the grappling rules it doesn't change, is all.

That's fair, I assume then that I can make the other grapple options then on my second turn from range like Pin, Tie-Up? Because I can't move any closer to the target I've grappled, as I have the grappled condition and am unable to move..

That is if the target doesn't just sunder the whip for 2 damage and break it.. In fact, how the heck will I ever get to the second round of grappling if I can't prevent literally any creature from instantly sundering it. I was hoping that I wouldn't grain the grapple condition and therefore still be able to make attacks of opportunity if they tried to sunder it, but now it seems like I'll be going through a metric s~~!-ton of whips...


To sunder the whip, they have to beat your CMD, just like they would if they instead tried to reverse or break the grapple. Granted, if you build for grappling then sundering the whip will be easier to do than making grapple checks against you, but it's not an auto-win. At higher levels, though, since they can sunder multiple times with one full attack, it does become problematic, but hopefully by then you have some kind of magic whip made of hardtobreakium or something.


Kiniticyst wrote:
It seems so strange that I can't grapple a large dude that is holding a whip (20ft reach), but I can grapple and reposition a gargantuan brontosaurus no problems (it only has 10ft reach). Why the heck is it based of reach instead of size, or even natural reach.

Actually...

Whip
Quote:
The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack.

Attacks of Opportunity

Threatened Squares wrote:
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

You don't count the large dude's whip since it does not threaten.

/cevah

Scarab Sages

I hate to be a downer, but I don’t think Hangman lets you grapple with reach. It lets you wield a rope noose as a whip, and it lets you grapple with the rope noose, but I don’t think that equates to grappling with a whip at 15 feet reach. The main benefits of the ability seem to be that you get the benefit of Improved Grapple without having to take the feat, and that you can have a weapon in hand while grappling without taking a -2 penalty. Grappling at 15 feet seems beyond what the ability allows by itself. At least that’s how I’ve always read it and run my Hangman.


Interesting.
Considering it also lets you treat a whip (or net) as a "noose", I'm not sure that part matters much.

But I can see the argument and I actually think you're right.
Hangman's Noose allows you to grapple with a whip/net/noose in hand for no penalty - and grants you the feat while you wield one of those.
That's it.
But it doesn't seem to change the rules of grappling the way Greater Whip Mastery does, or at all (save the no-penalty bit).
Also, free automatic drag on a successful grapple seeems a bit much for a level 2 ability.

I'll agree with Ferious Thune on this, I don't think Hangman alone allows you to grapple from 15 ft away.
You could always actually take Greater Whip Mastery, and it's probably a good choice.

Most of the few reach/range grapple options get weird and unclear, so I guess it's debatable. Reasonably confident on this one though.
And still easier to interpret than Constructed Pugilist.

Scarab Sages

The archetype is unfortunately not the most clearly written, so anything is possible. But since it lets you grapple with a “noose,” and noose isn’t really defined anywhere, it’s safer to assume that doesn’t otherwise change the grapple rules. Just because you can use the noose as a whip it doesn’t mean the noose gets all of the stats of a whip for other things.

Greater Whip Mastery would let you do the grapple at range stuff. As a vigilante you can also take Whip of Vengeance at 6th (Hangman’s first open vigilante talent) and get Whip Mastery and Improved Whip Mastery from a single talent.

I don’t ever actually use the noose as a whip on my build. I just have it for the fun/roleplaying side of it. So I don’t plan to take Whip of Vengeance. Other things like Foe Collision seem more fun to me, and I dipped unchained monk for Improved Unarmed Strike anyway, so when I’m not grappling I either flurry unarmed or with a seven branched sword.

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