Freedom of movement = / = water flying

[BoseMensch]

So I have had this debate now twice in a game I'm running, and while I have made a hard ruling on this, I wanted to make sure I didn't get this wrong, as I'm new to GMing pathfinder....

Situation: Character has essentially a ring of freedom of movement. Character enters pools of water that are very deep (30+ feet deep, 60+ feet wide, sloping downward away from point of entry) . Player argues that freedom of movement allows full movement speed vertically, not just horizontally. My argument is that no, you can move horizontally up to your full movement speed, but that unless you have a swim speed (character does not), you cannot move vertically at full movement speed due to the freedom of movement. Have now had this argument twice during the game, and I have rule both times that freedom of movement allows standard travel (i.e. you can walk on the floor up to your movement speed), but does not grant you a swim speed to travel vertically up to your movement speed.

To facilitate discussion, here is the full spell description:

"This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web. All combat maneuver checks made to grapple the target automatically fail. The subject automatically succeeds on any combat maneuver checks and Escape Artist checks made to escape a grapple or a pin.

The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, even with slashing weapons such as axes and swords or with bludgeoning weapons such as flails, hammers, and maces, provided that the weapon is wielded in the hand rather than hurled. The freedom of movement spell does not, however, grant water breathing."

Aaaand, argue!

[Name Violation]

I've heard of rulings that make the player fall straight to the bottom of the water.

I don't see why they can't walk along the ground under water. Gaining height would be the issue. You can fall, but don't have a way to fly to the surface

[Meirril]

"Move and attack normally" could be interpreted to mean a few different things, but the example is being able to fight with slashing weapons as if you weren't impeded by the water. As such, you should allow the player to choose to move either as if he was in air (so he could 'fly' underwater if he has a fly speed), or let him use swim to move underwater, which would generally be 10' per successful swim check if memory serves me correctly.

I can see him getting off the bottom if he has flight or swim speed, or uses the swim skill. Not regular ground movement.

[willuwontu]

Name Violation wrote:

I've heard of rulings that make the player fall straight to the bottom of the water.

My favorite ruling is that gravity no longer applies to you since it restricts your movement.

[OmniMage]

I would argue that the character would move normally while standing on the bottom of the lake or the floor of any other body of water. Swimming is not normal movement for a creature without a swimming speed, so they get no special treatment for that. Whats next? They try to get some sort of benefit while climbing?

In order to walk, you need the friction of the ground. Without friction, you would slide everywhere and find it difficult to stand. Likewise, you need friction and buoyancy in order swim. I think the spell has to let some forms of restrictions to apply, otherwise they can't do anything.

[Adjoint]

willuwontu wrote:

My favorite ruling is that gravity no longer applies to you since it restricts your movement.

Gravity does not restrict your movement, the floor does! Free fall is the natural state of being.

[Auke Teeninga]

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Aquatic Adventures wrote:

Freedom of Movement

In addition to preventing a character from being grappled and several other nasty conditions, freedom of movement enables the target to move and attack normally while underwater. Thus, a creature benefitting from freedom of movement can swing weapons without penalties (though objects that leave its possession, like thrown weapons or ammo from ranged weapons, lose this benefit), lift objects without drag, and walk along the bottom at full speed. The creature automatically succeeds at all Swim checks as the water offers no significant resistance to its movement. If the creature has the ability to do so, it can fly or use spells like air walk to freely move around as if it were in air. Creatures who need just the movement benefits from freedom of movement without the benefits against grapple, paralysis, and magic effects that hinder movement should consider the lower-level spell free swim on page 59.

[BoseMensch]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Aquatic Adventures wrote:

Freedom of Movement

In addition to preventing a character from being grappled and several other nasty conditions, freedom of movement enables the target to move and attack normally while underwater. Thus, a creature benefitting from freedom of movement can swing weapons without penalties (though objects that leave its possession, like thrown weapons or ammo from ranged weapons, lose this benefit), lift objects without drag, and walk along the bottom at full speed. The creature automatically succeeds at all Swim checks as the water offers no significant resistance to its movement. If the creature has the ability to do so, it can fly or use spells like air walk to freely move around as if it were in air. Creatures who need just the movement benefits from freedom of movement without the benefits against grapple, paralysis, and magic effects that hinder movement should consider the lower-level spell free swim on page 59.

Thanks! I don't have that book, and honestly, didn't know it existed. That is the specific answer for which I was looking. It also looks like its in line with my ruling and with everyone's comments.

Thanks everyone for your input!

[Name Violation]

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Aquatic Adventures wrote:

Freedom of Movement

In addition to preventing a character from being grappled and several other nasty conditions, freedom of movement enables the target to move and attack normally while underwater. Thus, a creature benefitting from freedom of movement can swing weapons without penalties (though objects that leave its possession, like thrown weapons or ammo from ranged weapons, lose this benefit), lift objects without drag, and walk along the bottom at full speed. The creature automatically succeeds at all Swim checks as the water offers no significant resistance to its movement. If the creature has the ability to do so, it can fly or use spells like air walk to freely move around as if it were in air. Creatures who need just the movement benefits from freedom of movement without the benefits against grapple, paralysis, and magic effects that hinder movement should consider the lower-level spell free swim on page 59.

water offers no significant resistance to its movement = You fall to the bottom.

[Derklord]

Name Violation wrote:

water offers no significant resistance to its movement = You fall to the bottom.

That is completely false, buoyancy and drag (water resistance) are independent from each other.

[Pizza Lord]

I agree with those who say it does not allow free swimming as though you had fly or a swim speed. I also agree with what Derklord says about bouyancy and water drag for someone falling into water with freedom of movement. Same with a reverse gravity effect, they would still rise to the top.

I would, however, apply that to other effects that slow or cushion a person, like a solid fog; perhaps at the bottom of an emergency escape shaft that the BBEG uses to get away. Solid fog is at the bottom to catch them, PCs try to follow and *splat*! (Mostly funny, because few PCs at that levels are going to die from falling damage unless it's huge).

[blahpers]

Half movement without a Swim speed. Freedom of movement makes you unable to fail at swimming--it doesn't make you especially good at it, and for most of us swimming is simply not as efficient a means of transport as moving over land.

[Volkard Abendroth]

Name Violation wrote:

Auke Teeninga wrote:

Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Aquatic Adventures wrote:

Freedom of Movement

In addition to preventing a character from being grappled and several other nasty conditions, freedom of movement enables the target to move and attack normally while underwater. Thus, a creature benefitting from freedom of movement can swing weapons without penalties (though objects that leave its possession, like thrown weapons or ammo from ranged weapons, lose this benefit), lift objects without drag, and walk along the bottom at full speed. The creature automatically succeeds at all Swim checks as the water offers no significant resistance to its movement. If the creature has the ability to do so, it can fly or use spells like air walk to freely move around as if it were in air. Creatures who need just the movement benefits from freedom of movement without the benefits against grapple, paralysis, and magic effects that hinder movement should consider the lower-level spell free swim on page 59.

water offers no significant resistance to its movement = You fall to the bottom.

He automatically succeeds at all swim checks. He can go wherever he could normally swim.

[Volkard Abendroth]

You can walk on the bottom at your normal move speed, or you can move at whatever speed you could normally swim without having to roll.

If you have a fly speed, you can use it.

[Cevah]

Ring of Freedom of Movement refers to the spell effect.

Freedom of Movement wrote:

This spell enables you or a creature you touch to move and attack normally for the duration of the spell, even under the influence of magic that usually impedes movement, such as paralysis, solid fog, slow, and web....

Water is not magically impeding, so without that part you get essentially "enables you to move normally".

How does one normally move in water? See the swim skill check.

If you have an armor check or strength penalty, the ring does not do anything about that since they are not magically impeding.

/cevah