Rules Reveals from the Oblivion Oath Twitch game! (was sleepy sea cat)


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

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A thread to discuss the 2E reveals from the Oblivion Oath stream! (SPOILERS LIKELY)

So far: three new heritages - dwarf (death warden), goblin (unbreakable), gnome (chameleon)

Confirmed backgrounds - street urchin, guard, field medic

Grand Lodge

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I might have heard it wrong (english is not my mother language), but seems like Untrained skills you add your ability score only, without penalty. Did they drop the -4 for untrained?

Liberty's Edge

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Leafar Cathal wrote:

I might have heard it wrong (english is not my mother language), but seems like Untrained skills you add your ability score only, without penalty. Did they drop the -4 for untrained?

Yeah, they did. The Untrained prof modifier is +0 now - no level, no nothing.

Liberty's Edge

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NEWS FLASH!!!

You can craft implements and simple tools from Pickles.

Tru-Facts!

Silver Crusade

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Another background: Entertainer (the Gnome Wizard has it)

Liberty's Edge

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Chill touch is now a save-based spell rather than attack-roll-based.

New divine spell: holy lance - ranged attack spell that deals good (or, I suspect, evil, depending on alignment) damage. Did anybody catch the die size?


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Grab special attacks automatic with an associated attack hit.

Criticals: Roll damage normally then double.

Liberty's Edge

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Feros wrote:
Grab special attacks automatic with an associated attack hit.

This was the case in the playtest as well, for the record.


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Which brings up something: Should we also confirm what has been kept from the Playtest in this reveal?


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I suspect deltas/changes from playtest are most useful to the dedicated forum members who have tracked everything.

The deltas/changes from 1e are more useful to people who haven't followed every iteration/just tuning in now.

Grand Lodge

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Seems like spell rolls are based entirely on casting ability score. The holy lance was +7 to hit.


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I think Acid Splash dealt 5 damage (plus 1 splash) which would indicate an upgrade from the 1d4 damage in playtest. Probably to 1d6. More would seem a bit excessive, I think.

Liberty's Edge

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How Shields Work:

Spend an action to raise it. Gives some amount of AC bonus. Can be used to block damage, as per playtest. Shield has a Hardness, which absorbs that much damage from the blow without consequence. If the damage exceeds the Hardness, the excess is applied to both the shield and to its wielder. Starting level equipment is enough to have a shield with Hardness 5 and 20hp.

Example: PC raises shield, is struck for 8 damage. Uses the damage block reaction. Shield has Hardness 5, so PC and shield both take 3 damage.

Silver Crusade

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Leafar Cathal wrote:
Seems like spell rolls are based entirely on casting ability score. The holy lance was +7 to hit.

Yep! Same with the Wizard's acid splash. To-hit of +7 = +1 Lvl, +2 Trained, +4 Int.

Grand Lodge

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Joe M. wrote:
Leafar Cathal wrote:
Seems like spell rolls are based entirely on casting ability score. The holy lance was +7 to hit.
Yep! Same with the Wizard's acid splash. +7 to hit, so: +1 Level, +2 Trained, +4 Int.

Should we assume that Touch AC is gone?


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Looks like it, yes.

Silver Crusade

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Blave wrote:
I think Acid Splash dealt 5 damage (plus 1 splash) which would indicate an upgrade from the 1d4 damage in playtest. Probably to 1d6. More would seem a bit excessive, I think.

Yes, it was a flat 1d6 (the die roll is shown on camera).


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Joe M. wrote:
Blave wrote:
I think Acid Splash dealt 5 damage (plus 1 splash) which would indicate an upgrade from the 1d4 damage in playtest. Probably to 1d6. More would seem a bit excessive, I think.
Yes, it was a flat 1d6 (the die roll is shown on camera).

Thanks for pointing that out.

I didn't look in that moment, but I figured it would be a d6. Next best option would be a d8, but if you add the splash damage (and the potential for persistent damage on a crit, should that still be possible), acid splash would greatly outperform most other damaging cantrips.

Liberty's Edge

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Oh, one more thing.

Zel really loooooovesss his pants.


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I don't know if I've missed this being discussed elsewhere, but from the attributes for the characters they all seem to have been built with a total of 9 boosts and 0 flaws. Do none of the ancestries have flaws anymore?


rooneg wrote:
I don't know if I've missed this being discussed elsewhere, but from the attributes for the characters they all seem to have been built with a total of 9 boosts and 0 flaws. Do none of the ancestries have flaws anymore?

3 boosts from ancestry, 1 flaw, 2 boosts from background, 1 boost from the class and 4 from the buy.

They just used one boost to cover the flaw i think.


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oholoko wrote:
rooneg wrote:
I don't know if I've missed this being discussed elsewhere, but from the attributes for the characters they all seem to have been built with a total of 9 boosts and 0 flaws. Do none of the ancestries have flaws anymore?

3 boosts from ancestry, 1 flaw, 2 boosts from background, 1 boost from the class and 4 from the buy.

They just used one boost to cover the flaw i think.

Yeah, that would make sense. Weird that they all decided to do it though.


rooneg wrote:
oholoko wrote:
rooneg wrote:
I don't know if I've missed this being discussed elsewhere, but from the attributes for the characters they all seem to have been built with a total of 9 boosts and 0 flaws. Do none of the ancestries have flaws anymore?

3 boosts from ancestry, 1 flaw, 2 boosts from background, 1 boost from the class and 4 from the buy.

They just used one boost to cover the flaw i think.
Yeah, that would make sense. Weird that they all decided to do it though.

Speculatively, it could mean a negative in a stat means a bit more {ie even in a dump stat, it should be avoided}. Though there could also be 100's of other reasons why, from rollplay, to what they are planning to do with there characters in the future.


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Siro wrote:
rooneg wrote:
oholoko wrote:
rooneg wrote:
I don't know if I've missed this being discussed elsewhere, but from the attributes for the characters they all seem to have been built with a total of 9 boosts and 0 flaws. Do none of the ancestries have flaws anymore?

3 boosts from ancestry, 1 flaw, 2 boosts from background, 1 boost from the class and 4 from the buy.

They just used one boost to cover the flaw i think.
Yeah, that would make sense. Weird that they all decided to do it though.
Speculatively, it could mean a negative in a stat means a bit more {ie even in a dump stat, it should be avoided}. Though there could also be 100's of other reasons why, from rollplay, to what they are planning to do with there characters in the future.

The dwarf champion has a strong mechanical reason to buff Cha. And the goblin sorcerer being more wise than normal for his ancestry makes a lot of sense based on his backstory.

Not sure on the other two, some folks just don't like seeing negative numbers.


It's also possible none of them wanted a negative stat while showing off the game for the first time


Could sorcerers always choose what components they use for their spells? They mentioned something about being able to make both components somatic because they we're a sorcerer.

Liberty's Edge

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pixierose wrote:
Could sorcerers always choose what components they use for their spells? They mentioned something about being able to make both components somatic because they we're a sorcerer.

That was how they worked in the playtest - sorcerers could substitute somatic components for material ones; I'd bet that holy lance normally has a material component of presenting the caster's holy symbol toward the target.


Shisumo wrote:
pixierose wrote:
Could sorcerers always choose what components they use for their spells? They mentioned something about being able to make both components somatic because they we're a sorcerer.
That was how they worked in the playtest - sorcerers could substitute somatic components for material ones; I'd bet that holy lance normally has a material component of presenting the caster's holy symbol toward the target.

That makes alot of sense and I figured as much but wasn't sure. Thanks for that ^^


OK, I understand STR negates some Speed reduction from Encumbrance,
any clearer understanding of that from actual gameplay examples?

Or insight to how speed works for Small / Slow races (Dwarves) and such?

Liberty's Edge

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Quandary wrote:

OK, I understand STR negates some Speed reduction from Encumbrance,

any clearer understanding of that from actual gameplay examples?

Or insight to how speed works for Small / Slow races (Dwarves) and such?

Nothing yet, but we only have 1 hours' worth of gameplay so far...


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I'm a little sad to see touch AC go. I liked that some creatures had it worse than others, and I thought it made sense for limited resources like spells or bombs to have a higher chance of success. On the other hand, reducing caster reliance on dex is probably a good thing because that stat doesn't need more going for it.


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I mean, most instances of targets touch AC that were cool to have around can be replicated by something like a circumstantial bonus to hit people wearing metal armor when you grasp shockingly.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, most instances of targets touch AC that were cool to have around can be replicated by something like a circumstantial bonus to hit people wearing metal armor when you grasp shockingly.

But leaves the one about targeting giant dragons and stuff out. Should be almost impossible to miss some moves against them, like firing at a brick wall.


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ChibiNyan wrote:
But leaves the one about targeting giant dragons and stuff out. Should be almost impossible to miss some moves against them, like firing at a brick wall.

On the bright side, if we need to judge pure dodging ability, Reflex saves (or Reflex DC) are still a thing.


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Shisumo wrote:
New divine spell: holy lance - ranged attack spell that deals good (or, I suspect, evil, depending on alignment) damage. Did anybody catch the die size?

It's divine lance. And it seems to be 1d4+Cha for sorcerers. Link.

Liberty's Edge

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My burning question is what replaces TAC? Is it Reflex DCs, regular AC, what

Liberty's Edge

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Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
My burning question is what replaces TAC? Is it Reflex DCs, regular AC, what

It looks like most stuff just uses AC. Given that casting stats are now used to attack with spells, this is probably fine.


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Good job guys, not having been able to see the episode yet I'm glad this thread is already giving me some previews. Will also make it easier to follow the video. So essentially: thank you!


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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Derry L. Zimeye wrote:
My burning question is what replaces TAC? Is it Reflex DCs, regular AC, what
It looks like most stuff just uses AC. Given that casting stats are now used to attack with spells, this is probably fine.

Honestly spells and other attacks using the same mechanics is a lot easier for new players to understand. I get what touch AC was doing but in the end probably easy enough to get the same effect with just some ability based modifiers instead of having a different mechanic.


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I had hypotesised the removal of TAC from the last game stream, but apparently we’ve later been told that wasn’t the case.

Silver Crusade

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I really wish they would do a lot of "things that have changed from the playtest" info dump.. the current trickle if preview information just makes me worried rather than hyped.


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Worried about what, exactily?


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I'm not sure adding casting stats makes up for not targeting TAC. An optimized caster could have 18 in their casting stat and 16 in Dex at level 1. Switching their casting stat in for accuracy only represents a 1 point bump in to hit, and potentially nothing at all from levels 5-9. This is a net gain when fighting things with identical AC and TAC like Shadows, and is a net 0 when fighting stuff with like the boar (15 AC, 14 TAC.) But a zombie had a 3 point swing between AC and TAC, which is not uncommon in the playtest bestiary. Some creatures had even more of a swing. In these cases, this is a net loss.

And this assumes that spellcasting proficiency gets bumped up to stay even with weapon proficiency, because currently it isn't. This feels like a safe assumption because martials having 2-4 points of accuracy over casters until level 12 seems absurd. But it also probably means casters need earlier access to item bonuses. And that is just to keep them even. They should not have a lower to hit chance on burning a limited resource than a martial has on an at will ability.

There are of course various ways they could have fixed this. Having cantrips target AC while spells target reflex or reflex DC spring to mind. I'd assume since they specifically were increasing spell chances of success that they are factoring in attack roll spells and not just monster saving throws.

(It is worth noting that this assumes the optimal ability scores. I can imagine many people would go for an 18 in their casting stat but not a 16 in dexterity, and this benefits those folks more. Which as I mentioned before is probably good for build diversity and making DEX of a god stat.)


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Qundle, early on, made a perception check -- he rolled a 1 and his result was a 2.

Qundles Wisdom is 12

This suggests sorcerers are untrained in perception.

It also reveals that certain classes generally are untrained in perception.


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Hmm, hadn't noticed that. I'd be surprised if classes were untrained in perception though, especially with it being used for initiative. Might have just been a mistake?

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I really wish they would do a lot of "things that have changed from the playtest" info dump.. the current trickle if preview information just makes me worried rather than hyped.

They did that months ago. It was the top 5 changes stream, and it's linked in the "What do we know thread."


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Thomas the Gank Engine wrote:

Qundle, early on, made a perception check -- he rolled a 1 and his result was a 2.

Qundles Wisdom is 12

This suggests sorcerers are untrained in perception.

It also reveals that certain classes generally are untrained in perception.

That's... not good. I already have enough issues with Sense Motive uses being rolled into perception while removing the ability to raise it. If now my sorcerer or other character is forced to be completely incompetent at reading things socially... I'm really not happy about that.


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No one said you'd be unable to raise it. There was a skill feat in the playtest to raise perception to expert, I could imagine the existence of a similar feat to train yourself in it.

Personally, I like it. Not everyone has to be good at perception. The introverted antisocial wizard, for instance, who has better things to do than take his eyes off the arcane rune he found scribbled on the wall.

That's also not to say that your perception score won't increase on its own at level 5 or something. We just don't know enough yet.


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I will certainly say that monsters shouldn't all be trained in perception, because some things should be easy to sneak up on.

And I'm sure if player characters start off untrained in perception they will be capable of choosing to become trained in it. I suppose it is also possible they rolled perception back into a skill, although I hope not.

Paizo Employee Director of Game Design

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Thomas the Gank Engine wrote:

Qundle, early on, made a perception check -- he rolled a 1 and his result was a 2.

Qundles Wisdom is 12

This suggests sorcerers are untrained in perception.

It also reveals that certain classes generally are untrained in perception.

Yeah, I caught that afterwards. It was a mistake...


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Jason to the rescue -- thanks for the clarification :)

Thinking about it more, untrained perception (with its ubiquity) would mean +1 feat tax essentially so I retract my previous statement about liking it for what it's worth.

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